Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
^^ Bob Chasm ...lovely fresh perspective
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Keep on doin Matum...no matter how much you cry and beat yourself...things are not going to change....
Hazrat Ameer Mawaiya Razi al Talaa was a very successful Khaleefa and muslims are proud of him.
I suppose, if one was to think of Allah as a regional tribal arab deity, then you would be right. After all, this is how secular historians view Allah and Muawiyyah- the regional deity of a regional tribal leader- who got lucky. However, if we think of Islam as a religion for all humanity made by the God of all humanity, then we may think of Muawiyyah and his family as the people who botched things up- the ones who established Islamic institutions that defined Islam in such a narrow, regional/ tribal way- that it divided the Muslim nation into an Arab and non Arab world. In which case, it could be because of him and his family that eventually, their version of Islam was unable to impress all humanity as the religion of the One God of all humanity.
How does a religion for whole humanity give the right to rule to a single lineage and how does it elevate one tribe over rest of humanity?
I suppose, if one was to think of Allah as a regional tribal arab deity, then you would be right. After all, this is how secular historians view Allah and Muawiyyah- the regional deity of a regional tribal leader- who got lucky. However, if we think of Islam as a religion for all humanity made by the God of all humanity, then we may think of Muawiyyah and his family as the people who botched things up- the ones who established Islamic institutions that defined Islam in such a narrow, regional/ tribal way- that it divided the Muslim nation into an Arab and non Arab world. In which case, it could be because of him and his family that eventually,** their version of Islam was unable to impress all humanity as the religion of the One God of all humanity. That perhaps it is because of their corruption of Islam that followers of his relgion are being chased like animals in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq by the Christians who should have been Muslims today**, if the correct Islam vision of Islam had been introduced to the world. Perhaps Muslims would not have been kicked out of Spain a year before Columbus discovered the Americas and the Americas would have been Muslim too, if it were not for Muawiyyah and his clan misunderstanding Islam.
I am not suggesting this is necessarily true. I am simply saying a lot depends on one's perspective. As the great sage of the world once said, We shall see.
Perhaps thats the reason why Prophat (s) said: 'When you see Mu'awiya on my pulpit, kill him!'
Keep on doin Matum...no matter how much you cry and beat yourself...things are not going to change.... Hazrat Ameer Mawaiya Razi al Talaa was a very successful Khaleefa and muslims are proud of him.
Why are you so blind....His mother ate the heart(or was it Liver) of Hazrat Hamza (Prophet's Uncle) and his son killed Prophet's Grandson and He fought against Prophet's cousin and son in law. Mawiya and his family and tribe were the enemies of the Prophet's family.
hows that for perspective.
May Allah open your eyes for guidance otherwise enjoy eternity in Hell right next to your successfull bugger
How does a religion for whole humanity give the right to rule to a single lineage and how does it elevate one tribe over rest of humanity?
Iconoclast, ruling a nation is a complex process. There are usually checks and balances in governing an ethical society. For example, the judiciary is independent and the justices have no term limits in the USA. The Senators and Congressmen represent the same nation in different ways. Districts are constructed in ways to make sure minorities have representation. The leader of the executive branch cannot remain in office for more than 8 years. Just like a table needs more than one leg these are all legs of a table and equally valuable in governing a society. Similarly, the Imams were suppose to be one of those legs.
There is a hadith that says Ali was to the prophet as Aaron was to Moses. So what was Aaron to Moses? According to the Torah, Moses appointed Aaron as the hereditary priest (Imam). As such, when Moses died Aaron did NOT become the leader. Aaron remained the Imam. Aaron's descendants can be seen hundreds of years later, still serving as Imams in the days of king Solomon and David too. It is only the century before Jesus was born that the Jews decided they did not want the hereditary Imams appointed by Moses anymore. The Jews believed they were the largest tribe and did not need the opinions of a small tribe of Aaron's children (known as Alay Imran) meddling in their affairs. This is the same feeling Arabs usually express about the Ahlul Bayt. Who are they to lead us?
However, lets turn this question around on the Arabs for a minute and ask who are the Arabs to receive a prophet? Who are they to receive a scripture in Arabic? Who are they to have the Kabaa? The simple answer is, if it can be the Arabs for the world, then it can certainly be the Ahlay Bayt for the Arabs. You cannot claim to understand one, but not the other.
Alay Imran, in any case was abandoned by the Jews. A century later Allah destroyed the Temple of the Jews for disobeying Him (abandoning the Imams/ Jesus), and scattered the Jews.
Now 2,000 years later you are asking me the same question the Jews asked, who is Alay Imran to lead us? My answer to you would be look around you, ask yourself, were those who disobeyed Allah, the Christians and Jews in the days of the prophet given a higher station than the followers of the prophet? Then why is it that the Jews and Christians are continiously humiliating us as the rest of the world laughs at us? The Imams were given to all nations, what is so special about the Arabs that they should not have them, but everyone should have the Arabs & their religion?
Ali to the Prophet as Aaron was to Moses:
"Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"
"Narrated Ubaida: Ali said (to the people of 'Iraq), "Judge as you used to judge, for I hate differences (and I do my best ) till the people unite as one group, or I die as my companions have died." And narrated Sad that the Prophet said to 'Ali, 'Will you not be pleased from this that you are to me like Aaron was to Moses?' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 57, Companions of the Prophet, Volume 5, Number 56)"
"Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5914)"
"Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses? (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5916)"
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
^next time before copying pasting something, maybe you should ponder upon it. Suppose I agree with you, but it is strange that Abou Bakr (raiallahu anho) was ordered by the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) to lead the salah when he was sick. Amazingly, he didn't order 'Ali (radiallahu anho) to do so, who is suppose to be an Imam of the beleivers after the Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam), according to your understanding. Maybe you can explain us why did that happen!?
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
^lets assume Prophet did ask Abu Bakr to lead the prayers. How does it prove that Abu Bakr to become the caliph? Is leading prayers a benchmark to become a wasi of a Prophet now? If yes then all those who led the prayers in different mosques of Medina were entitled to come forward with a claim to caliphate.
Anyways. Read the following tradition in the Bukhari,
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 552:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
Allah's Apostle appointed Usama bin Zaid as the commander of some people. Those people criticized his leadership. The Prophet said, "If you speak ill of his leadership, you have already spoken ill of his father's leadership before. By Allah, he deserved to be a Commander, and he was one of the most beloved persons to me and now this (i.e. Usama) is one of the most beloved persons to me after him.
(The above is about the expedetion that was to leave in the last ailing days of the Prophet)
"None from among the prominent Muhājirūn and Ansār, such as Abū Bakr, Umar, AbūUbaydah, Sa`d and their likes, was excluded from being enlisted by the Prophet."
-Tārīkh Ibn al-Athīr, Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqāt, Khālid Muhammad Khālid, Men Around the Prophet, p. 548, 8th ed. Al-Tabari,....
Prophet had assembled together an army under the l'ship of Usama b Zayd on the outskirts of Madina and Abu Bakr and Umar were ordered to assemble under his leadership (Usama was 17 years old and people had objected to be under his leadership!. If Prophet had intented a grand important position such as his successorship for Abu Bakr, then how come he wanted him to leave Madina and not stay back with the Prophet? Its a different story that the expedetion never left and Prophet became angry with those who oppsed Usamas' appointment as a commandar over them.
According to Bukhari, Hz Abu Bakr was out of Madinah (he was in a town called Sunh) at the time of the demise of the Prophet (pbuh). He had not joined the group of Usama.
Anyway, tradition from Bukhari reads;
Hadith 2:333
Narrated 'Aisha :
Abu Bakr came riding his horse from his dwelling place in As-Sunh. He got down from it, entered the Mosque and did not speak with anybody till he came to me and went direct to the Prophet, who was covered with a marked blanket. Abu Bakr uncovered his face. He knelt down and kissed him....
If he was chosen to take charge for a responsibility such as succesorship then why was he not called back by the Prophet (pbuh) himself at this critical time?
How does the above fit in with claims that Hz Abu Bakr was asked by the Prophet to lead the prayers? If Abu Bakr was out of town when the Prophet died then who was leading the prayers in Madina in the last day or so?
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Allahkabanda does Ghadeer Khum ring any bell…
Pagluu bro…jhoot kay payr nahee hotay. let me tell u a story…
3 students werent prepeared for their test at the uni. so they came to the professor after the test had finished and told him “Sir, our car tyre went flat as we were making our way to the uni”.
The professor smiled and said “no problem, u guys cud do another one. Come tomorrow to my office”.
The guys couldnt believe their luck and congratulated e/o as to how they had fooled the old professor.
Next day they went to the professors office and the professor took each of them in a seperate room and gave them their tests.
They all sat their comfortably and wrote their answers. As they came to the last question, it read “SO WHICH TYRE WAS IT?” 
So u c, the lies can not be consistent for a long time.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
double post
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Iconoclast, ruling a nation is a complex process. There are usually checks and balances in governing an ethical society. For example, the judiciary is independent and the justices have no term limits in the USA. The Senators and Congressmen represent the same nation in different ways. Districts are constructed in ways to make sure minorities have representation. The leader of the executive branch cannot remain in office for more than 8 years. Just like a table needs more than one leg these are all legs of a table and equally valuable in governing a society. Similarly, the Imams were suppose to be one of those legs.
Wrong, Imamate is not one leg of governance, its governance in all aspects social, economical and religious. Imam is ruler, highest cleric, law maker, chief executive, commander of army all at the same time. His word is supposedly the word of God.Its all the powers centred in one person. You cannot compare it with any form of governnace in existence today.
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There is a hadith that says Ali was to the prophet as Aaron was to Moses. So what was Aaron to Moses? According to the Torah, Moses appointed Aaron as the hereditary priest (Imam). As such, when Moses died Aaron did NOT become the leader. Aaron remained the Imam. Aaron's descendants can be seen hundreds of years later, still serving as Imams in the days of king Solomon and David too. It is only the century before Jesus was born that the Jews decided they did not want the hereditary Imams appointed by Moses anymore. The Jews believed they were the largest tribe and did not need the opinions of a small tribe of Aaron's children (known as Alay Imran) meddling in their affairs.
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Here you are going back on your earlier post where you cliamed that Islam was perceived as regional tribal diety bcoz of actions of Ummayyads who turned it into arab vs non-arab. Yet you yourself are giving examples from a religion which in itself has been very tribal one. Jewish God is God of Bani Israel, their book make a clear differentiation of "children" of Israel and other people. Islam is supposed to be religion of all humanity.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
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However, lets turn this question around on the Arabs for a minute and ask who are the Arabs to receive a prophet? Who are they to receive a scripture in Arabic? Who are they to have the Kabaa? The simple answer is, if it can be the Arabs for the world, then it can certainly be the Ahlay Bayt for the Arabs. You cannot claim to understand one, but not the other
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I do not beleive Prophet saw was sent so that Arabs would lead the world and therefore neither do i beleive that Prophet saw wanted to establish a royal/religious lineage of his offsprings.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
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Now 2,000 years later you are asking me the same question the Jews asked, who is Alay Imran to lead us? My answer to you would be look around you, ask yourself, were those who disobeyed Allah, the Christians and Jews in the days of the prophet given a higher station than the followers of the prophet? Then why is it that the Jews and Christians are continiously humiliating us as the rest of the world laughs at us?
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I think the christians and jews are humiliating us coz tehy have strive for the best under the circumstances tehy have, they are not waiting for an Imam to rescue them nor do they beleive in rules based upon progenies, they give equal oppurtunities to all.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
**NOTE:
Let us not deviate from the original topic. It is better that the members participating in this thread themself remove the irrelevant arguments from their posts, and focus on the actual questions asked in this topic, otherwise the mods would have to remove the irrelevant discussions which are deviating the focus away from the original questions asked by the thread starter.**
Sunni problem is that a Sahabi is not rated based on their emaan rather it is based on just the fact that they were in the company of Rasool pbuh or they have seen him even just once. The sahih bukhari and muslim both narates that;
The messenger of God, talking to his companions, said, "On the Day of Judgment, some of my Umma (community) will be taken to the left, and I will say; "to where ?". I will be told "to the Hell fire" I will say; "God, these were my (Sahaba) companions." I will be told that "You do not know what they invented after you. They turn back on their heel since you left them." I will say' " To destruction, destruction to those who changed things after me"
even Quran says many times about companions;
[9:74] "They swear by GOD that they never said it, although they have uttered the word of disbelief; they have disbelieved after becoming submitters. In fact, they gave up what they never had. They have rebelled even though GOD and His messenger have showered them with His grace and provisions. If they repent, it would be best for them. But if they turn away, GOD will commit them to painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. They will find no one on earth to be their lord and master."
[9:75] "Some of them even pledged: "If GOD showered us with His grace, we would be charitable, and would lead a righteous life."
[9:76] "But when He did shower them with His provisions, they became stingy, and turned away in aversion."
[63:1] "When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD."* GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars. "
[47:16] "Some of them listen to you, then as soon as they leave they ask those who were enlightened, "What did he just say?" GOD thus seals their hearts and, consequently, they follow only their opinions."
[33:12] "The hypocrites and those with doubts in their hearts said, "What GOD and His messenger promised us was no more than an illusion!"
[9:58] "Some of them criticize your distribution of the charities; if they are given therefrom, they become satisfied, but if they are not given therefrom, they become objectors."
[9:61] "Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, "He is all ears!" Say, "It is better for you that he listens to you. He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution."
Not all Sahabi were good and you all know that, but some of you still consider them more pious then Ahlulbait and this is because of the blood lineage.
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Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
If a Khalifa is appointed by Allah (swt) then all the Khulafa were rightly Guided. If Allah was not happy with them theu wouls never have become Khilafas. In this discussion we are talking about the four early Khulafa and NOT all the companions of the Prophet. We should try and look for reasons to unite ourselves rather than look for reasons to divide ourselves. The problem with Muslims today is that we have STOPPED learning from each other and we are all stuck in our own ways. We are constantly arguing and now we are killing each other.
Please THINK and REFLECT before arguing
I do not beleive Prophet saw was sent so that Arabs would lead the world and therefore neither do i beleive that Prophet saw wanted to establish a royal/religious lineage of his offsprings.
Fortunately Islam doesn't work on what you believe, but what God has revealed.
Re read God's covenant with Abraham of keeping leadership in his offspring.
Fortunately Islam doesn't work on what you believe, but what God has revealed.
Re read God's covenant with Abraham of keeping leadership in his offspring.
It would be better if you refer to exact verses in Quran.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
If you are referring to 2:124
And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
I do not see anything like what you are implying.
I think its an interesting discussion and i will open a thread on it.