Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

[Das_Reich]

@MAKRANI

This hadees is directly from sunni's most authentic book. It is totally irrelevant here whether this sahabi narrated ghadeer or not. However, I wonder what are the things he was regretting about?

BTW shia got their knowledge of Ghadeer directly from the Imams not from a second hand source.

This is the difference between the two, you have hadees that start like "so and so heard it from so and so.....", while shia get the hadees directly from Imams.

so ur imams wrote books on hadith ? can u name a few ?
and why then ur scholars have written so many books on rijal

[Das_Reich]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

bro zer01 the saudis are a materialistic , tyrannical monarchy not different from ummayyads obviously they dont have any interest in remembering hussain , event of harrah or ibn zubair's revolt
if u read this carefully the message is not simply hatred of ahlulbayt but hatred of ANYONE who opposes a unjust tyrant.Furthermore the political opponents of saudis in their earlier age were banu hashim so they try to downgrade them even further.

[zer01]

@zobia

i was not present in that era so i cant take everything into account mention in any book.

all i can say is he Ameer Maviway called names to Ali RA then he is liable to ALLAH SWT and not to me…or is he?

You were also not present when Allah created Adem (as) but you still read Auozo Billah everyday. dont ya?

[zer01]

@Code_Red

Convince me that I am wrong, or accept these facts burried deeply by our Ancestors :-

For Sunni :-

Why sunni add ‘Hazrat’ and ‘’ while using the name of Ameer Muawiya ??

It is very much available in authentic history that he started most notorious sick tradition of cursing a very noble companion and marvelous muslim leader, Hazrat Ali Karam Allah wajhu.

I have lost respect for him some time ago, and I can not add any faulty prayer for him like " May Allah be pleased with him " due to above mentioned unislamic, sick tradition started by him and followed by his family untill one noble muslim ruler ended it. His name was Hazrat Umar Bin Abdul Aziz
IMO he was the only rightly guided caliph in that family , Bani Umayya And 5th and last one for muslims of Arabia. I fully respect him.

So where are our sunni guppies now?

Ibn Sadique, AQ, armughal, bao bihari, Allahkabanda Anyone willing to convince him that hes wrong?!

[Pagluu]

@zer01

True. Heres another example.

Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia (declared by previous King Fahad) Sheikh Abdul Aziz declares Imam Husain (A) commits sin by not accepting Yazid’s Shari Government:

[17:72] But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.

[AllahkaBanda]

All of the prominent muslim scholars expelled Ameer Muawya from the List of Rightly guided Caliphs of Islam because they knew that he was WRONGLY guided Caliph. Prove my statement wrong if you can :)

the burden of evidence is on your shoulders, you've to show that all of the prominent Muslims scholars expelled him (may Allah be pleased with him). The term "all" includes all of the sunni and all of the shia scholars. Let's see your evidence!

@zer01, Pagluu, ramesha

rofl, keep your wahabi rant out of this thread

[Pagluu]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

^ doesnt quite sound like you are "rofl" there when u heared the word Wahabi......

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

**Note for everyone (including me):

Let us maintain friendliness and respect in our argument, though it indeed is very difficult to do so in such discussions.

May Allah (swt) bless us all to be able to follow the manners of our Prophet (saw) in our discussions.
**

[diwana]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

Yet another silly thread.

People fighting over something which happened centuries ago! Reading some selective books written by some human being and thumping chest they know everything like yesterday. What a shame.

When will people start living in present?

[Nussairee]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

At best Muawiya had nothing positive, so ppl stop wastin ur time on him. let the wahabis have him.

andhoun mein kaana raja hi jachta ga...

[Code_Red]

You have totally misunderstood me my friend. I said that Allah (swt) himself is cursing his enemies and the enemies of the Prophet. And everytime a reader reads a Quran, these curses get renewed so to speak. I said therefore that technically the enemies of Allah and the Prophet (and his progeny) will come under this curse until the judgement day as Quran will be present and recited. .

I still insist that we are not Allah's adviser on day of judgement. He himself, alone is going to make all decisions on these matters as well as all the mankind.
Read the part bellow for detailed elaboration.

The problem is people like Zakir Naik (la) and the grand saudi mufti (may he burn in hell forever) above have a large number of followers and not every one of them is knowledgeable like you. So when they say something like that, their follower believe that to be true.

There is huge problem with cursing panorama. You involve alive people in your favorite game of Cursing match.

I agree that these two people you mentioned above said something which is not right. But instead of seeking God's guidance for them you are asking God to keep them misguided so they should burn in hell.

This is totally unislamic practice. According to teaching of Prophet ( pbuh) He prayed for guidance for the people who were non muslim and hurld stone at him during his visit to Taif ! REMEMBER the story ??

Are you not doing totally opposite to the teaching of Holy prophet ?

Zakir Naik is one educated scholar and doing a nice job. He made just a little mistake and here you are sitting in your comfy chair and start cursing him ? Why you did not pray to your lord that please guide this man in right direction so he could correct his mistake and guide me too.

Similarly, I totally stand by my First post that those people who curse Noble companions of Prophet(pbuh) are following tradition of Ameer Muawiya. No matter how much you try to deny but that is a sad fact.

I do not respect Ameer Muawiya and I do not respect those who follow his sick tradition. BUT I DO NOT CURSE ANYONE.

There is no doubt that Muawiya in his hatred of Ali bin Abi Talib [as] instituted the Bidah of cursing/abusing Him [as] from the pulpits but why Shias curse the evil doers is because we are taught this by the very two things that are the foundation of Islam i.e. Holy Quran and Ahlulbayt [as]. Making it more simple, the act of sending curse on evil doers is mentioned in Holy Quran and has been done by Ahlulbayt [as].

I have already elaborated Allah did not make this cursing practice obligatory for anyone. Noble companions of Prophet(pbuh) are not Evil Doer. They are humans and some of them could make mistakes or commit some errors.Which is totally understandable. Cursing anyone is tottaly un-acceptable.

Quote any refference where Hazrat Ali Cursed any noble companion. Instead he was the most wise and intellectual adviser of earlier caliphs and they used to ask his opinion and make decisions in same pattern.

[Code_Red]

@AllahkaBanda

the burden of evidence is on your shoulders, you've to show that all of the prominent Muslims scholars expelled him (may Allah be pleased with him). The term "all" includes all of the sunni and all of the shia scholars. Let's see your evidence!

@zer01, Pagluu, ramesha

rofl, keep your wahabi rant out of this thread

I am talking about All prominent sunni scholars. I have not read or seen anyone placing him as 5th rightly guided Caliph. This is a well known fact

btw...

you need to extend this prayer part a little more for him ...

( May Allah be pleased with him , and dear Allah ! please ignore that cursing practice started by him against Prophet's beloved companion, most noble ,wise and intellectual teacher of muslims)

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

From a secular perspective, Hazrat Muawiyyah (ra) was an extremely effective statesman. He was responsible for creating the civil service that allowed the Islamic state to cement its hold on the lands after a period of extremely rapid growth by conquest under his predecessors.
In creating such an efficient civil service he enabled to state to endure rather than burn out quickly like many other rapidly expanding nations in history.

His one alleged error was in appointing his son as successor. Even this is grossly overstated. He did not appoint his son - rather he made the prominent members of Muslim society pledge to support his son as his successor whilst he was still alive.

If you consider the conditions under which he came to power, this makes a lot of sense. Following the death of Hazrat Ali (ra) there was a period of immense instability as it was unclear who should succeed him. In the Hijaz consensus was that it should be Hazrat Ali's son , whereas far away in Syria the army supported Muawiyyah. Things came close to conflict at that time because neither party was willing to compromise until the threat of force was used.

Now the nation had grown even larger under Muawiyyah's rule - there was even greater potential for a power struggle as communication from one side to another would be even harder.

His one true error was not in securing his son as his successor; rather it was to not know his son, to not know his son's morality, to not see what a villain his son would turn out to be.

He was absolutely right to secure his succession before he died; the error was in his choice. With a father's blind eye he did not see his son's faults and left the Ummah with a terrible leader.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

[quote]

From a secular perspective, Hazrat Muawiyyah (ra) was an extremely effective statesman. He was responsible for creating the civil service that allowed the Islamic state to cement its hold on the lands after a period of extremely rapid growth by conquest under his predecessors.
In creating such an efficient civil service he enabled to state to endure rather than burn out quickly like many other rapidly expanding nations in history

[/quote]

no doubt from a worldly standpoint muawiyah was the arab equivalent of charlemagne

but why despite all this he is not a "rightly guided caliph" ?

as he ruled like a caeser , disregarded sunnah when it did not suit him and persecuted many religious sahaba & tabaeen.
There have been many kings after muawiyah who were very effecient rulers, generals administrators but from a religious standpoint that does not qualify them for the title of a "rightly guided caliph"
Muawiyah is the role model for those who like seperation of religion from state.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

[QUOTE]
His one true error was not in securing his son as his successor; rather it was to not know his son, to not know his son's morality, to not see what a villain his son would turn out to be.

He was absolutely right to secure his succession before he died; the error was in his choice. With a father's blind eye he did not see his son's faults and left the Ummah with a terrible leader.
[/QUOTE]

no again from a worldly standpoint muawiyah was right to appoint his son , and lets not blame everything on yazid either as he was only doing what had been done before under muawiyah
and please dont think it was simply "blind eye" or error of judgement ...muawiyah made sure he remove all obstacles either through threats /intimidation or murder in path of yazid
read biography of abdur rehman b abu bakr radiallahanhu , abdur rehman b khalid b walid for more on this

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

no doubt from a worldly standpoint muawiyah was the arab equivalent of charlemagne

Charlemagne was a failure compared to Muawiyah. Charlemagne's nation split in three after he died; Muawiyah's stayed as one after he died, albeit ruled by a villain.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !

[QUOTE]

I do not respect Ameer Muawiya and I do not respect those who follow his sick tradition. BUT I DO NOT CURSE ANYONE

[/QUOTE]

bravo !
but problem is the cursing itself was simply a tool to suppress the Alid faction in kufa and medina esp.
ALi was just a man simply cursing him is not why I hate muawiyah afterall khawarij also cursed Ali....but muawiyah changed the sunnah of the Prophet and oppressed people

[Das_Reich]

Charlemagne was a failure compared to Muawiyah. Charlemagne's nation split in three after he died; Muawiyah's stayed as one after he died, albeit ruled by a villain.

Well appointment of yazid was the end of sufyanid dynasty ...remember that marwan is the ultimate victor of 2nd fitna and sufyanids after yazid I are gone forever ....plus ummayyads cannot be regarded as one group but 2 marwanids and sufyanids] at that time they were infighting by the time yazid lost power.

[AllahkaBanda]

I am talking about All prominent sunni scholars. I have not read or seen anyone placing him as 5th rightly guided Caliph. This is a well known fact

brother, do you realize your faulty reasoning?

You attacked us with a straw man as Ahlus Sunnah doesn't believe that he was the 5th rightly guided Khalifa, meaning he is 5th best Muslim. However, we don't also rebuke him as we consider him a good believer and righteous khalifa (not one of the rightly-guided khalifa). In addition, how does it prove that we can't say "may Allah be pleased with him". I can even say this about you: "may Allah have mercy on you" or "may Allah be pleased with you". It is simply a du'a and showing some respect; nothing more nothing less!

The reason I asked you for proof was to show the problem in your argument.

Wallahu A'lam

Now for sake of showing the faulty reasoning, let me say this:

1) Just because you haven't seen or read any statement from prominent sunni scholars, doesn't mean it is nonexistent. It could very well mean that you are ignorant as you're only a layman

2) Even if we assume that the statement doesn't exist, how does their silent prove that they expelled him?

3) Even if assume the above, how does it prove that we can't say "may Allah be pleased with him".

4) again, burden of proof is upon your shoulders, bring a statement from all prominent sunni scholars proving your case!

the above 4 points are only for the sake of pointing out the incorrect argument, you don't have to respond to any of them.

[bob_chasm]

From a secular perspective, Hazrat Muawiyyah (ra) was an extremely effective statesman. He was responsible for creating the civil service that allowed the Islamic state to cement its hold on the lands after a period of extremely rapid growth by conquest under his predecessors.

In creating such an efficient civil service he enabled to state to endure rather than burn out quickly like many other rapidly expanding nations in history. ....

I suppose, if one was to think of Allah as a regional tribal arab deity, then you would be right. After all, this is how secular historians view Allah and Muawiyyah- the regional deity of a regional tribal leader- who got lucky. However, if we think of Islam as a religion for all humanity made by the God of all humanity, then we may think of Muawiyyah and his family as the people who botched things up- the ones who established Islamic institutions that defined Islam in such a narrow, regional/ tribal way- that it divided the Muslim nation into an Arab and non Arab world. In which case, it could be because of him and his family that eventually, their version of Islam was unable to impress all humanity as the religion of the One God of all humanity. That perhaps it is because of their corruption of Islam that followers of his relgion are being chased like animals in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq by the Christians who should have been Muslims today, if the correct Islam vision of Islam had been introduced to the world. Perhaps Muslims would not have been kicked out of Spain a year before Columbus discovered the Americas and the Americas would have been Muslim too, if it were not for Muawiyyah and his clan misunderstanding Islam.

I am not suggesting this is necessarily true. I am simply saying a lot depends on one's perspective. As the great sage of the world once said, We shall see.