Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Is the Islamic way of ruling more similar to a monarchy or a democracy?
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
I agree with you Codey, there has been over time this obsession to elevate the Sahabah at the level of the Prophet and for some, perhaps even higher. These people forget that the Sahabah were human beings, and its properly enriching for your education as a muslim to not only educate yourself on what they did right, but also learn to criticize what they did wrong, and learn to avoid such things. The Quran, at the end of the day, is our highest source of evidence as to what is good vs. what is wrong, and its pretty clear as day in the Quran that you should not be cursing anyone, and that rather, the message of Islam is spread by words of love, rather than acts of unkindness.
Muawiyah has done some questionable things in history, and as a muslim and as an independent mind, you have the right to question those things, and avoid incorporating those habits into your practice.
I don't buy into this business of someone or the other some centuries ago praised Muawiyah, so then we should all praise him. That's nonsense. Then likewise, why don't we visit my thread on Mr. Bashir of Sudan who is now being charged with war crimes, and instead support him, because by God, I found a picture of a woman in Sudan crying tears on his behalf? Same concept - just because someone has elevated the ranks of a historical figure doesn't mean that's necessarily how God sees him, and we should certainly avoid deifying Sahabah - which is what is being done with such statements as the "dust" he stirs up is better than blah blah blah.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
let me know if you ever get anywhere with this thread 
p.s. PCG where is that thread of yours?
Muhammad stated Ali was to Muhammad as Aaron was to Moses. According to the Torah anyone can lead the general prayer not just Aaron or his sons. So, I dont know how leading a prayer makes Abu Bakr like Aaron. Did leading a prayer have a special meaning in the Arab moon worshipping religion prior to Islam that it means something to you? To this day, Jews know this difference between what Alay Imran (Kohens) are suppose to do and what everyone else can do, such as lead a prayer: Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries
Aaron was responsible for purifying the Sanctuary Holy of Holies i.e. their Khanna Kabaa & performing prayer rituals/ sacrifices for the nation. This is not just leading a community prayer. Ali broke the idols in the Khanna Kabaa sitting on the Prophet’s shoulders that represents purifying the Kabaa. There is evven Ali’s door in the Kabaa. Both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim record that Ali was like Aaron to Moses. I dont think it gets much clearer than this. I just hope you have a good excuse, on judgment day when you pretend you did not understand what the Prophet said.
Btw, what did you want me to do, invent the hadith rather than paste it?
Here you are going back on your earlier post where you cliamed that Islam was perceived as regional tribal diety bcoz of actions of Ummayyads who turned it into arab vs non-arab. Yet you yourself are giving examples from a religion which in itself has been very tribal one. Jewish God is God of Bani Israel, their book make a clear differentiation of "children" of Israel and other people. Islam is supposed to be religion of all humanity.
Iconoclast,
Umayyids turned Allah and islam into an arab vs. non Arab thing by their actions, such as not accepting conversions from Christians because they wanted the converts to continue paying Jizya. later they also becam very busy gathering hadiths to justify abusing minorities and finding ways to marry six year old girls and have sex with slave girls etc. Dont you think they could have spent a little bit of time asking Christian converts, why they converted to islam and assited the Arab Armies in defeating the Christian emperor, Heraclius? No, they were not interested in these things, because it did not increase the money in their treasuries or their land holdings. To the degree that today we are left thinking Angels from God brought us victory and not the poor converts in Christian Mesopotamia, Greater Syria and Near East provinces of the Christian Roman Empire. Apparently, those Angels are on a lunch break these days, as the Jews and Christians tear up Israel and humiliate us in Iraq and Afghanistan and we have no answer for Christians as to why so many of them converted then but so few are converting now.
In contrast, notice that Husayn was married to a Persian princess. He in other words, was already building bridges with non Arab societies, rather than enrich the powerful Arab tribes. So, there is no way of knowing what would have happened if his family had been allowed to have more influence on how Islam was understood. Most of his descendants were kept in prisons/ house arrest. The significance of all this is not that some family with special genetic ability to solve problems and speak to God was restricted from ruling the Islamic world. The significance is that, if the small clans of the Prophet's family was treated like this then how were other tribes muzzled and abused by the Umayyids? There is a lot more that can be said on the subject, but I dont think there is room here.
btw, The Christians have tried constructing the Papacy without a tribal lineage. So how much fairer are the Popes than, for example, the hereditary priests like that of the Aga Khani? Also, in my opinion you are right that Imam cannot be the single ruler. However, I think these ideas may have crept into Shiaism because of Sassinid influence i.e. Chosroes and other Persian leaders who were all powerful shadow of God on earth etc. However, when we look at the role of the descendants of Aaron in the Bible ( to determine the role of ali as aaron was to Moses) they were indeed suppose to be just one leg of the table. However, the Jews found even that one leg as one too many just like the Umayyids.
well Makrani just give me the answer to my question.
my question from u is that how do u know that which sahabi(RA) is of weak iman and which one is of strong?
are u Nauzobillah God?
all the killings and quarrels among sihaba(RA) were on misunderstandings and bcoz of difference between human thoughts. afterall they were human not angels who were free from mistakes.
but the mistakes done by them were forgiven by Allah Almighty as per Quranic verses.
and if u give the exampls of hypocritic sihaba(RA) then first of all u are hypocrite and u will be put into hell for that reason. mind it this is the sign of ur weak iman. ehh?
No one must dare to say anything against Sihaba(RA)
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
bob_chasm, thank you for your posts.
what do you think about Aal e Yaseen mentioned in the Quran. Is it Aal e Mohammad? Allah sends his salam on them in the Quran.
That is “Ilyasin” not Aal e Yasin.
Il-yasin was a Prophet also called Elijah.
No body is saying that cursing is obligatory. Thus my arguments prove to be correct. And yes “noble companions” are not evil doers but those who were not noble ones, can be, simple is that.
As for your personal notion that cursing anyone is un-acceptable then you have right to hold personal views but for Allah this isnt un-acceptable act since not only he Himself has done it but has also involved his blessed Prophet [s] into this act. [Again referring to Quran].
As for Ahlulbayt [as] cursing anyone, then I can present references wherein Imams of Ahlulbayt [as] did indeed curse the evil-doers but I wonder whether such refs will be accepted by you.
سَلَامٌ عَلَى إِلْ يَاسِينَ
“Il Yasin” is exactly same as “Aal e Yasin”. Infact “Il” has more ‘takeed’ in it (you can verify this with any native Arabic speaker given he knows what he is talking about)
Elijah is simply called as Ilyas by Quran- and not “Ilyasin”.
There is a reason why i asked that brother. Read the following conversation between Al Mamun and Imam Ali Reza (as):
"…Prophet and the angels seek forgiveness for him. believers, pray for the Prophet and greet him with, "Peace be with you. Holy Qur’an 33:56).
All the obstinate realized that when this Verse was revealed, some people came to the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.) and asked him to teach them how to pray for him. Holy Prophet(S.A.W.) instructed, “Say: O Allah, bless Mohammed(S.A.W.) and Mohammed’s family the way you blessed Abraham and Abraham’s family. You are surely Praiseworthy and Glorious.” Can any one of you disagree to this?
“No, no one can,” answered the scholars. Al-Ma’mun said, “This is a unanimous thing. However, we need something more evident about the Holy Prophet’s family excerpted from the Holy Quran.”
Imam Reza(A.S.) said: Allah says: Yasin, by the Quran, the Book of wisdom, you are a Messenger and you follow the right path. (Holy Qur’an 36:1-4) Who is that Yasin?
“Undoubtedly,” said the scholars, “Yasin is Mohammed(S.A.W.).”
Imam Reza(A.S.) commented: Allah has given to Mohammed(S.A.W.) and his holy family a characteristic that, except the heedful, no one can attain its meaning. In the Holy Quran, Allah blesses no one save the prophets(A.S.). He the Exalted says:
"Peace be with Noah among all men in the worlds. Holy Qur"an 37:79)
"Peace be with Abraham. (Holy Qur"an 37:109) and
"Peace be with Moses and Aaron. (Holy Qur’an 37:120)
Allah, thus, does not bless the family of Noah, Abraham, or Moses. But He blesses Mohammed’s family in His saying: Peace be with the family of Yasin. (Holy Qur’an 37:130) Yasin is Mohammed (S.A.W.).
Al-Ma’mun expressed, “I have already known that only the core of the prophecy can explain this clearly.”
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
[37:130] Peace be upon Elias, and all those like Elias. Sura 37 The Arrangers.(Al-Saffat) -The Arabic Quran with the Authorized English Translation by Dr. Rashad Khalifa-Koran
37:130"Peace and salutation to such as Elias!" Salamun AAala il yaseena
Arabic Quran Surah 37. Those Who Set The Ranks
All translations i have come across mention Il-yasin as Ilyas or Elias.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
[QUOTE]
In contrast, notice that Husayn was married to a Persian princess. He in other words, was already building bridges with non Arab societies, rather than enrich the powerful Arab tribes.
[/QUOTE]
maybe u dont mean it this way
but i strongly disagree with ur assessment
hussain was married to a persian princess so was abdullah b umar and so was muhammad b abubakr
that has nothing to do with "building bridges with non arab societies"
it has more to do with Rasullalllah's , abu bakr's and Ali's policy that all muslims persian or arab shud be treated equally in terms of getting financial benefits
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
[QUOTE]
To the degree that today we are left thinking Angels from God brought us victory and not the poor converts in Christian Mesopotamia, Greater Syria and Near East provinces of the Christian Roman Empire. Apparently, those Angels are on a lunch break these days, as the Jews and Christians tear up Israel and humiliate us in Iraq and Afghanistan and we have no answer for Christians as to why so many of them converted then but so few are converting now.
[/QUOTE]
Good observation
may I add that most of those tribes who converted late in Rasullallah's time esp from periphery of arabia and yemen contributed greatly to victory
Also the role of ansar in the conquest was later ignored by some pro-Quraishi historians
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Azeez Code Red
There is an old arabic saying Face is in dust and rear is at the sky.
Why i have used this here is for you to figure out 
As the traditions relating to Hadrat Muawiyah 
is mixed up with many shia stories mixed inbetween it is very difficult to judge the actual scenario. it is better that we show respect to all shabah
you can read Hazrat Ameer Muawiya aur tareekhi haqiqh by Shikah taqi Usmani.
Inshallah Afaqa ho ga.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
^ yes its an entertaining read but also dont forget to read "khilafat o malokiat par aitrazat ka tajziya" by Malik Ghulam Ali
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Your interpretation of historic events & your assertions are extremely naive…, the relationship between Hazrat Ali RA & Hazrat Ameer Muawiayah Ra was much more complex…, yes they had fought wars , yes Hazrat Ameer Muawiayah RA did not took oath of Alligiance to Hazrat Ali RA … but both had tremendous respect & admiration for each other… & Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah was not claiming Khilafat in place of Hazrat Ali.., to understand the dynamics of the relationship you have to understand the events & the forces surrounding the Shahadat of third Khalifa Hazrat Usman RA…, Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah was only demanding that the murderers of Hazrat Usman RA be punished before he pledges baith to Hazrat Ali RA as the suspected murderers were amongst his supporters, while Hazrat Ali RA was asking first pledge baith… so that there is no inteshar amongst the Ummah & then I will punish the culprits,
I chose not to make my own personal judgement of correctness in this matter as both of these Sahab-e-Rasool were right in their own respect…, I chose not to doubt the Niyat of both these glorious Sahab-e-Rasool as what was driving their actions was what they thought was right coarse of action in the circumstances.
Before making your own personal judgment about the character of a Sahab-e-Rasool …, do consult the judgement made by Our Holy Prophet PBUH.., & all the other Sahab-e-Rasool specially the Sahaba in Ashrah-e-Mubasharah & the Pious Caliph… regarding Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah & the responsibilities they bestowed upon him when they became Khalifa, as unlike you who have made a judgment about him based on ambiguous concocted version of history & a crude rendition of the same…, their assessment of his Character was based on more definitive / unambiguous interactions with him.
Regarding his decision to appoint his son as his successor …, while the decision may or may not be the right decision but I refuse to doubt his intentions.. to fully understand the dynamics that led to this decision one has to take into consideration the events that followed the Martyrdom of Hazrat Usman RA & Hazrat Ali RA.., while some of the Sahabas at the time were most critically against this decision there were others that actually advised & influence Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah to make this decision
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
^ I did not read all the 95 posts before me... so may be what I have said has already been said by some1 else..
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
from tafseer ibn-e-kaseer.
Musa and Harun
Allah tells us how He blessed Musa and Harun with prophethood and how He saved them, along with those who believed, from the oppression of Firawn and his people, who had persecuted them by killing their sons and sparing their women, and by forcing them to do the most menial tasks, then ultimately He caused them to prevail over them and to seize their lands and their wealth and all that they had spent their entire lives amassing. Then Allah revealed to Musa the Clear and Mighty Book, which is the Tawrah, as Allah says: [RIGHT][FONT=Traditional Arabic][FONT=Times New Roman]وَلَقَدْ ءَاتَيْنَا مُوسَى وَهَـرُونَ الْفُرْقَانَ وَضِيَآءً][FONT=Times New Roman] [/RIGHT] (And indeed We granted to Musa and Harun the criterion (of right and wrong), and a shining light) (21:48). And Allah says here: [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَءَاتَيْنَـهُمَا الْكِتَـبَ الْمُسْتَبِينَ - وَهَدَيْنَـهُمَا الصِّرَطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ ] [/RIGHT] (And We gave them the clear Scripture; and guided them to the right path.) meaning, with regard to words and deeds. [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَتَرَكْنَا عَلَيْهِمَا فِى الاٌّخِرِينَ ] [/RIGHT] (And We left for them among the later generations.) means, that after they died they would be mentioned in good terms and spoken of highly. Then Allah explain this further: [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]سَلَـمٌ عَلَى مُوسَى وَهَـرُونَ إِنَّا كَذَلِكَ نَجْزِى الْمُحْسِنِينَ إِنَّهُمَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ] [/RIGHT] (Salam (peace!) be upon Musa and Harun! Verily, thus do We reward the doers of good. Verily, they were two of Our believing servants.) [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَإِنَّ إِلْيَاسَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ - إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ - أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلاً وَتَذَرُونَ أَحْسَنَ الْخَـلِقِينَ - اللَّهَ رَبَّكُمْ وَرَبَّ ءَابَآئِكُمُ الاٌّوَّلِينَ - فَكَذَّبُوهُ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَمُحْضَرُونَ إِلاَّ عِبَادَ اللَّهِ الْمُخْلَصِينَ ] [FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَتَرَكْنَا عَلَيْهِ فِى الاْخِرِينَ- سَلَـمٌ عَلَى إِلْ يَاسِينَ- إِنَّا كَذَلِكَ نَجْزِى الْمُحْسِنِينَ- إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ-] [/RIGHT] (123. And verily, Ilyas was one of the Messengers.) (124. When he said to his people: "Will you not have Taqwa'') (125. "Will you call upon Bal and forsake the Best of creators,) (126. Allah, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers'') (127. But they denied him, so they will certainly be brought forth,) (128. Save the chosen servants of Allah.) (129. And We left for him among the later generations.) (130. "Salam (peace!) be upon Ilyasin!'') (131. Verily, thus do We reward the doers of good.) (132. Verily, he was one of Our believing servants.) Ilyas Qatadah and Muhammad bin Ishaq said, "Ilyas is another name for Idris.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abdullah bin Masud, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "Ilyas is Idris.'' This was also the view of Ad-Dahhak . Wahb bin Munabbih said, "He is Ilyas bin Yasin bin Finhas bin Al-Izar bin Harun bin Imran. Allah sent him to the Children of Israel after Hizqil (Ezekiel), may peace be upon them both. They had started to worship an idol called Bal, and he called them to Allah, may He be exalted, and forbade them to worship anyone besides Him. Their king believed in him, then he apostatized, and they persisted in their misguided ways, and not one person among them believed in him. So he prayed to Allah against them, and Allah withheld the rain from them for three years. Then they asked him to relieve them from that, and promised that they would believe in him if rain came to them. So he prayed to Allah for them, and the rains came, but they persisted in their evil ways of disbelief. So he asked Allah to take him to Him. Al-Yasabin Akhtub had grown up under his care, may peace be upon them both. So Ilyas was commanded to go to such and such a place, and whatever mount came to him, he was to ride on it and not to give it away. A horse of fire was brought to him, so he rode it, and Allah clothed him with light and covered him with feathers, and he used to fly with the angels as a human angel, heavenly yet also earthly. This is what was narrated by Wahb bin Munabbih from the People of the Book; Allah knows best how true it is. [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ ] [/RIGHT] (When he said to his people: "Will you not have Taqwa'') means,do you not fear Allah when you worship others instead of Him’
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلاً وَتَذَرُونَ أَحْسَنَ الْخَـلِقِينَ ] [/RIGHT]
(Will you call upon Bal and forsake the Best of creators,) Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, Mujahid, Ikrimah, Qatadah and As-Suddi said that the word Bal means lord. Ikrimah and Qatadah said, "This is the language of the people of Yemen.'' According to another report from Qatadah, it is the language of Azd Shanu'ah. Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam narrated from his father that it is the name of an idol which was worshipped by the people of a city called Balabak (Baalbek) which is to the west of Damascus. Ad-Dahhak said, "It is an idol which they used to worship.'' [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلاً] [/RIGHT] (Will you call upon Bal) means, will you worship an idol,' [RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلاً وَتَذَرُونَ أَحْسَنَ الْخَـلِقِينَ - اللَّهَ رَبَّكُمْ وَرَبَّ ءَابَآئِكُمُ الاٌّوَّلِينَ ] [/RIGHT] (and forsake the Best of creators, Allah, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers) means, He is the One Who is deserving of your worship alone, with no partners or associates.’
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]فَكَذَّبُوهُ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَمُحْضَرُونَ ] [/RIGHT]
(But they denied him, so they will certainly be brought forth,) means, for the punishment on the Day of Reckoning.
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]إِلاَّ عِبَادَ اللَّهِ الْمُخْلَصِينَ ] [/RIGHT]
(Save the chosen servants of Allah.) means, those who believe in Him alone.
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَتَرَكْنَا عَلَيْهِ فِى الاٌّخِرِينَ ] [/RIGHT]
(And We left for him among the later generations.) means, he is praised and spoken of highly.
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]سَلَـمٌ عَلَى إِلْ يَاسِينَ ] [/RIGHT]
(Salam (peace!) be upon Ilyasin!) Similarly, one might say for Ismail, Ismain. This is the language (dialect) of Bani Asad; they say Mikal, Mika’il, and Mika’in. They say Ibrahim and Ibraham; Isra’il, Isra’in; Tur Sina’, Tur Sinin. All of that is fine.
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]إِنَّا كَذَلِكَ نَجْزِى الْمُحْسِنِينَ - إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ] [/RIGHT]
(Verily, thus do We reward the doers of good. Verily, he was one of Our believing servants.) We have already discussed the meaning of this above. And Allah knows best.
[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Traditional Arabic]وَإِنَّ لُوطاً لَّمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ - إِذْ نَجَّيْنَـهُ وَأَهْلَهُ أَجْمَعِينَ إِلاَّ عَجُوزاً فِى الْغَـبِرِينَ ثُمَّ دَمَّرْنَا الاٌّخَرِينَ وَإِنَّكُمْ لَّتَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهِمْ مُّصْبِحِينَ وَبِالَّيْلِ أَفَلاَ تَعْقِلُونَ ] [/RIGHT]
(133. And verily, Lut was one of the Messengers.) (134. When We saved him and his family, all,) (135. Except an old woman (his wife) who was among those who remained behind.) (136. Then We destroyed the rest.) (137. Verily, you pass by them in the morning.) (138. And at night; will you not then reflect)
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
Just follow the five Pillars of Islam and don't get divided. There was no Sunni or Shia at the time of Prophet PBUH, just try to be good Muslims and stick to Qur'an and Sunnah.
Re: Challenge to Sunni and Shia folks !
All the sahabas were people of strong eeman, having personal differences did not make them people of weaker eeman.
The ayaa you quoted is about Munafiqeen, not about Sahaba. The people who are refered as Sahaba are the one who were his companion in eemaan. All of them, every single one of them was better in eeman than any other muslim that ever come after them. That is true for Hazrat Ameer Ma'aaviyaa also, unless you are implying that he was a hypocrite.
can u name couple of munafiqs from Prophet s.a.w's time ?