Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ Quran has been complied even before the first civil war amongst the muslims( the Qurra who have memorized the whole quran) and during this period of turmoil and the subsequent second fitnah ....only one Quran could be seen amongst the muslims regardless of their political inclinations ....same is true for certain hadith that were widely accepted by all muslims but the vast majority of hadith were recorded after this period.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Because for the Quran you have Allah’s word on its protection. “We have revealed the “Zikr” and we will safeguard it”. Very few people indeed include hadith in Zikr, it is translated and understood as the Quran. Everyone here started off with Quran regarded as free from error with this ayat as basis.
If Allah guarantees something then no matter how much you try to distort it you cannot prevail. That is faith. In the absence of this belief, I assure you there would be much more controversy about the Quran than there is today.
The Quran isnt regarded as free from error because the means were accepted to be perfect. So the argument that Quran is free from error therefore Hadith must be too because it is acquired by the same means has a crucial flaw in it: people dont believe in the Quran’s authenticity based on its method of compilation.
And 14 centuries later the results speak for themselves. No sect has a different version of the Quran. Every single sect and sect within it has a different set of ahadith that is then regarded as sahih, not-so-sahih, weak, etc etc.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
There is one sect in the hadith says is the saved sect i feel if you can find out which is the one then you will find your answer.
This is hte sect which follows the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ and Mashallah all sects claim to be the very same :)
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^I told you we have to find the right sect, thats when Allaah guides an Individual. In that case every religion says we are the best and thats the only religion which promises salvation, now thats also a big problem what about that.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ we have Islam and Quran (the latest of revelations from Allah swt) so that question is already solved.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
There were several Wahi perservers, Muawiyah r.a. was also one of them. THrough these people the Quran was passed on and written on Leafs.
Yes...there was a written copy. From the beginning. The hadith, on the other hand, were neither memorized nor learned en mass even.
The recording of the Quran was more or less a communal obligation...whereas whatever hadith were collected were of less fedelity and were collected well after they were uttered and in a much more haphazard manner.
When the Quran was being compiled (not recorded...compiled), Ayesha (ra) and the other companions were the people who knew what to collect. The The Hadith collectors had no such guide. Thus, everything was collected.
The compilation of the Quran, and the solicitation and collection of the Hadith are simply not comperable in any way shape or form.
Further, the compilation of the Quran was unrelated to the collection of the Hadith.
As for the Hadith elaborating on the Quran, as with namaz or what to do during Haj, i argue these traditions would have passed down with the Quran, and would not have relied on the compiled Hadith. That is to say, we should be reasonable and assume that much of what we need to know in terms of context and what not would have been passed down anyway.
However, the Hadith contain much much more than simply information regarding the historical context of the Quran, and Islamic rituals. I dare say many hadith have lost their context, and so are quite puzzling in themselves. In any case, I don't think Islam required the Hadith to be complete. Far from it...doesn't mean they aren't of great scholarly value. But when we compare the Quran to Hadith...there is no comparison in either it's intrinsic value to the faith, and in particular how they were put together.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
The recording of the Quran was more or less a communal obligation...whereas whatever hadith were collected were of less fedelity and were collected well after they were uttered and in a much more haphazard manner.
When the Quran was being compiled (not recorded...compiled), Ayesha (ra) and the other companions were the people who knew what to collect. The The Hadith collectors had no such guide. Thus, everything was collected.
The compilation of the Quran, and the solicitation and collection of the Hadith are simply not comperable in any way shape or form.
Further, the compilation of the Quran was unrelated to the collection of the Hadith.
As for the Hadith elaborating on the Quran, as with namaz or what to do during Haj, i argue these traditions would have passed down with the Quran, and would not have relied on the compiled Hadith. That is to say, we should be reasonable and assume that much of what we need to know in terms of context and what not would have been passed down anyway.
However, the Hadith contain much much more than simply information regarding the historical context of the Quran, and Islamic rituals. I dare say many hadith have lost their context, and so are quite puzzling in themselves. In any case, I don't think Islam required the Hadith to be complete. Far from it...doesn't mean they aren't of great scholarly value. But when we compare the Quran to Hadith...there is no comparison in either it's intrinsic value to the faith, and in particular how they were put together.
Thats not true, Allah had blessed Imam Bukhari with such immense knowledge, he Knew what he had to Select, and hte rest followed.
It wasn't just that they collected whatever out of no where.
And hadiths were collected based on thier 'sahih' content, and isnad, as well as their consensus, how many people can verify the hadith.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Not for whole of mankind brother as Prophet is the messenger for entire mankind so whats you take on that.
Well, I doubt the Quran meaning being preserved without the Hadith, if you read the tafseer only we tend to understand the complete Quran.
Some topics need the context behind the whole concept. Some words in the Quran are not used in colloquial Arabic, if you can read the Tafseer of Surahs from 65-80 then it will be clear.
Overall, i Islam is for the entire mankind. Well, the problem is solved for us thats how all the sects think they are the best. So i can give the same answer. When i have mentioned that Mohammad Moustapha "Adami in his dissertation is proved all your refutations wrong.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
If you read my posts, I didn’t suggest to reject all ahadith, 
I do follow ahadith as well but don’t consider them as 'infallible/accurate/unquestionable (due to sources)/context-free" words of Prophet PBUH.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Imam Bukhari, may Allah be pleased with him, was a great scholar. That's it. Allah gave him intellect, and that's it. The theory of divine inspiration of scholars is a Christian one and has no place in Islam. Be mindful of that.
They pretty much did collect whatever was out there...everything. That's why isnad is so important. It put sanity into the hodge podge of sayings.
The manner in which hadith were collected, and which ones were deemed correct or authentic, is pure innovation. A good one, mind you, but it has nothing to do with Allah's revelation aside from subject matter.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Well, I doubt the Quran meaning being preserved without the Hadith, if you read the tafseer only we tend to understand the complete Quran. Some topics need the context behind the whole concept. Some words in the Quran are not used in colloquial Arabic, if you can read the Tafseer of Surahs from 65-80 then it will be clear.
Overall, i Islam is for the entire mankind. Well, the problem is solved for us thats how all the sects think they are the best. So i can give the same answer. When i have mentioned that Mohammad Moustapha "Adami in his dissertation is proved all your refutations wrong.
Tafseer of the Quran uses Hadiths I hope u know. And I didn't ascribe any divine attribute to Imam Bukhar r.a. instead I said Allah blessed him with enough knowledge to preserve our deen. He used chain narrators and trustworthy people.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Hey crescent that was mentioned for Captain1 adn not to you. I hope its ok wiht you now. Take care.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Yeah i was just clearifying that we get tafseer and understanding through hadiths dont we?
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
If anyones doubt this beleive me Crescent bhai, I have no words.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
here you go astray. How did they come into existence?
The preservation of hadeeth is not devine - the sayings of the prophet SAW are - this is what I stating -
The Holy Quran states that he does not say anything but what comes to him from revelation - Do you deny the verses that state this - **
*Have you ever studied any tafseer of Quran? *
*Each and every thing that was meant to be LAW and moral code for humanity was and was uttered by the prophet was from Devine revelation - this is the aqeedah of the Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah - people who follow madhahib and those who dont - Are they all astray? *
**or the so called neo-reformists of islam?
I am commanding because I started the thread as a challenge - Neither one has answered the challenge!!!
I have the right to ask for an answer on the question I asked from the start!
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
[quote=picoico]
Yes...there was a written copy. From the beginning. The hadith, on the other hand, were neither memorized nor learned en mass even.
quote]
Mashallah. Almost every companion of the prophet SAW memorized hadeeth. The history books are full of that. And history books here mean the collections of hadeeth.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Crescent: That's not what I said at all, and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion.
Lol!!
The one who disrespects the Prophet SAW and his companions blatantly is asking for respect!!
1-1 = 1 is an unsolvable mathematical equation!
Give respect where it is due and Allah will put respect in others hearts for you!
BTW - your posts are no where even close to the challenge!
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Antumul
I had asked before but never got a reply to post #40.
Since you seem to have knowledge about the science of hadith let me ask you a question:
I ask this for my knowledge. You have stated many times that others do not have knowledge about science of hadith. Based on that I expect you to be knowledgible and would apprecaite if you could help me with my question.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Wait, you said:
[quote]
So just like the current shape (30 juz in a specific order and chapter (surahs) in a specific order are preserved the devine revealation of hadeeth is also preserved.
[/quote]
when you are talking about preservation of Quran and in same sentence you talk about preservation of sayings of Prophet PBUH it implies you are saying the preservation of sayings of Prophet PBUH is also divine.... no?
[quote]
The Holy Quran states that he does not say anything but what comes to him from revelation - Do you deny the verses that state this - **
**Have you ever studied any tafseer of Quran?
[/quote]
Nobody is suggesting that Prophet PBUH nauzubillah madeup anything by himself, but this does not guarantee that whatever Prophet PBUH said will be preserved just like Quran.
[quote]
Each and every thing that was meant to be LAW and moral code for humanity was and was uttered by the prophet was from Devine revelation - this is the aqeedah of the Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah - people who follow madhahib and those who dont - Are they all astray?
[/quote]
So who is "astray", deo-bandi or brelvi? Both are "Ahle-Sunna-Wal-Jama'ah"? so claim the Wahabis and Salafis.
BTW, you didn't answer my question regarding "FAKE" ahadith.