Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
good, we found 120 of such ahadith from ‘student’ of Hazrat Abu Hurayra RA, but I’m sure there are thousands of ahadith attributed to him in Bukhari, so where did those come from? And brother Antumul said “tonnes” of ahadith collected during Prophet PBUH’s time, may I ask where are the rest? 
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Brother, If you have looked into my post I also mentioned this
[QUOTE]
Shaikh Mohammed Mustafa Adami in his dissertation- "Studies in early hadith literature", written in English and then translated into Arabic. In his research work, found out the Manuscripts before the advent bukhari and muslim thats the first 200 years hadith were it written down or not. Al Hamdullillaah, this research work refuted and showed 1000 works written down.
[/QUOTE]
Well I have even provided in my earlier posts that Ahadith were collected, during Prophet's salaAllaahu alayhi wa sallam period.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
You understand that those who compiled the ahadis never made the claim that their verification was **final. Which means that no matter how much correctness you attribute to them post humously you are making a claim they never made, infact went to lengths to explain that their effort was the best they could. I could accept that they made the honest best effort they possibly could, I cannot accept that their efforts were absolutely correct, because only God is absolute.**
This quote is very well put by ravage. And I think that these so-called Hadeeth Rejectors are nothing more than people who believe in this above quote.
There is a BIG difference between someone who theologically believes that the Prophet's life is not to be used as a model to live by, vs. someone who questions the validity and authenticity of man-recorded hadith. The former would be a hadith rejector and a sunnah rejector. The second is merely someone who scrutinizes something before they accept it as "truth".
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Its not about picking and choosing. How many of these hadith do you honestly live by? How many messages have you come across in hadith that you actually implement in your life? Chances are, you're probably not even really following the hadith that you do believe are probably true, so why worry about not following a hadith that you think could be wrong?
For example, when I walk into my home or into the bathroom, there are duas that you SHOULD read when walking into these entities. Right? And these are duas that you'll find in hadith. So, now, I accept that these are duas that you should read, and its good that you do, but I don't think you're going to hell if you don't. Its an optional thing. And I don't do it, not because I choose not to, but usually, I don't even remember to do it. Because its not a priority for me. I try to read my 5 namazein, and that's a big accomplishment for me.
Now, on the other hand, the hadith that says women shouldn't be leaders, I think is bogus. I have seen more successful female leaders in our Islamic community, than male leaders. They get the work done, and boys don't. And even when the boys have tried to run things, they've usually done a pretty bad job of it. Experience tells me otherwise, and so I don't think this hadith is an accurate one, and much has been written on this hadith to refute it - including the questionable character of the person who narrarated/passed it to the hadith collectors. Not to mention that the Quran talks about Queen Sheba's leadership as a political leader, and makes no commandment that she ought to have given up her role because she was female...that would make this hadith a direct contradition to the Quran, and its still in the collections! So, I live my life and do things that involve me taking a leadership role here and there, and I do a good job with those positions. Now, should I drop those positions, because some hadith tells me that because I'm a female, I wouldn't be a good leader?
I hope that illustrates my point of view.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
This quote is very well put by ravage. And I think that these so-called Hadeeth Rejectors are nothing more than people who believe in this above quote.
There is a BIG difference between someone who theologically believes that the Prophet's life is not to be used as a model to live by, vs. someone who questions the validity and authenticity of man-recorded hadith. The former would be a hadith rejector and a sunnah rejector. The second is merely someone who scrutinizes something before they accept it as "truth".
Qul Hatoo burhanakum in Kuntum Saadiqeen.
Get me the Proof if your truthful. Are your comments documented, if they are documented please get the reference.
Please accept Antumul Alona challenge
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Are you kidding me? You expect me to do work when you have that rude sort of a reply? You are more than welcome to have fun with the search tool and look up previous posts on this forum regarding this hadith. Plenty of essay links, etc have been posted on it. You may also find it useful to do a google search, and you’ll come up with references that you can double check in your own library, if you so wish.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
I always expect the same from you, tell you something s/he is rude, i was expecting this answer from you. I have seen the whole thread. But anyways, you entitled for your views.
Well, you know how much research work you do before gas talk. Take care PyariCGudia. Even i will get answers, from google i told you documented stuff if you have read it, please reference it
I wanted your answers to Antumul Alona
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Iconoclaust already answered your question.
The issue that you have is dogding the challenge.
Answer either one of the Challenge 1 or Challenge 2 questions from Quran only.
the collection of hadeeth started at the time of Prophet SAW. Those are the collections that were written down by those who were literate and memorized by those who were not such as Abu Huraira RA. The formal compilations we refer to today were started after the prophetic era no doubt but they used the ones from Those who were present at the time of the prophet SAW such Ibn Abbas RA, Abdullah bin Masood, ibn Umar ridwan Allah Alehim.
So now to you and PCG and the other rejectors :::::::::::::::::
Answer the challenge or accept that you need the proper knowledge of Hadeeth of Prophet SAW to understand the Quran.
The Quran is the road to Allah and the Sunnah of Rasul Allah is the map to use the roads.. They go hand in hand!!!
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
I always find it interesting that the misogynst hadith have been narrarated by Abu Huraira. Unfailingly.
MashaAllah.
Did you ever study how the hadeeth were collected?
Tell me the name of the course and where you took it?
The ahadeeth from Abu Huraira RA from authentic chains are all verified and if they are NOT **then is it Abu huraira RA at fault or the book that is being referred to ?
He memorized hadeeth by heart. He was with the prophet SAW was among As-habul Suffa . They had no work or trade except to learn from the prophet SAW.
**Please ANSWER THE CHALLENGES PUT FORWARD:::
Stop the rhetorical questions trying to sidetrack the challenge. Please do or I will ask the moderators to remove your posts.
JAK
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ANSWER THE CHALLENGES :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Any posts that are not answering the challenge are futile attempts to dodge the thread
::::::::::::::::::::::: ANSWER THE CHALLENGES 1 & 2 ::::::::::::::::::::::::
*Since you have not done so you have failed . You are by default admitting that you cannot answer them. *
*Thank you so much for fulfiling the purpose of this thread.. You have one more chance to try and answer the challenge by using Quran only. *
PCG, CAPTAIN 1 and others...........
We have found where the hadeeth rejectors stand ::::::: On thin ice :::
Baseless arguments. Foundationless personal opinions.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
For example, when I walk into my home or into the bathroom, there are duas that you SHOULD read when walking into these entities. Right? And these are duas that you'll find in hadith. So, now, I accept that these are duas that you should read, and its good that you do, but I don't think you're going to hell if you don't. Its an optional thing. And I don't do it, not because I choose not to, but usually, I don't even remember to do it. Because its not a priority for me. I try to read my 5 namazein, and that's a big accomplishment for me.
Now, on the other hand, the hadith that says women shouldn't be leaders, I think is bogus. I have seen more successful female leaders in our Islamic community, than male leaders. They get the work done, and boys don't. And even when the boys have tried to run things, they've usually done a pretty bad job of it. Experience tells me otherwise, and so I don't think this hadith is an accurate one, and much has been written on this hadith to refute it - including the questionable character of the person who narrarated/passed it to the hadith collectors. Not to mention that the Quran talks about Queen Sheba's leadership as a political leader, and makes no commandment that she ought to have given up her role because she was female...that would make this hadith a direct contradition to the Quran, and its still in the collections! So, I live my life and do things that involve me taking a leadership role here and there, and I do a good job with those positions. Now, should I drop those positions, because some hadith tells me that because I'm a female, I wouldn't be a good leader?
I hope that illustrates my point of view.
See, when it floats your boat you accept it, when it doesn't you reject it.
This is not "searching for the truth" or "accepting the truth". This is just ignorance.
That women example was one, there are other examples, and people using the excuse of "searching for the correct hadiths" to reject hadiths is absurd.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Seems like you are mistaking me for hadith rejector.
Read here about my notion on ahadith.
Iconoclast’s response is insufficient to prove that ahadith collection started at time of Prophet PBUH. Who collected THIS particular hadith itself? and when? I doubt that if Hazrat Abu Huraira RA really remembered such large database of ahadith then his student would yield only 120 ahadith from him.
My point is that you CAN’T take each hadith to be unquestionable words of Prophet PBUH… unquestionable in the sense that it may have social, political and personal influences of narrator, times and what not. Even about the last sermon of Prophet PBUH has two versions.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ Ok Captain 1. Good that you are now admitting to things in the right way.
But a person needs the knowledge of how and when to consider a reported hadeeth as fabricated or weak.
Your comments/posts on many threads have been mocking without the proper ettiquete.
Your earlier comment is also out of jgnorance of the science of hadeeth. Based on your logic the ten given glad tiding in the time of Prophet SAW would not be considered special in anyway. Which would be completely false. The authentic hadeeth verify their distinction.
So good that you are now a believer of authentic hadeeths. But you need to be careful on passing judgement without knowledge.
Iconoclaust's response is sufficient for the one who wants to believe based on sound judgement, and insufficient for the one who wants to keep professing their own opinion irregardless of it being just arguments.
WHo collected the hadeeth? how was it reported? Go take a proper course on Hadeeth sciences and you will find out that these are basic questions.
See for a muslim it is imperitive that the basic belief is correct. That is believing in the Devine revealation is not just Quran, it is hadeeth as well. Where does this come from ? The verses of the quran testify to this. Scroll back on the earlier pages and you will find the verses. So just like the current shape (30 juz in a specific order and chapter (surahs) in a specific order are preserved the devine revealation of hadeeth is also preserved. The only issue is the FAKE hadeeths or so called hadeeths that are being circulated.
The verified authentic hadeeth are the ones to be followed. Who will tell us? people with more knowledge of hadeeth sciences will. And if we want to do it our selves, then we need to spend time in educating our selves through proper class room learning. *Not through a GOOGLE University Degree. *
A real course on hadeeth sciences.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Armughal, the theory that hadith are part of divine revelation must be some Arab theory that you've gotten from where you live. I've never heard of any muslim ever claim that Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim hadith were transmitted and delivered by some angel.
Man has intervened in the recording of the hadith, and the hadith are on topics that don't necessarily have anything to really do with religion. The Quran is revelation. The Hadith are not. The Hadith are merely a written down version of the oral hadith that were transmitted over some generations after the Prophet's death that pertain to Islamic history and the Prophet's life.
You really need to understand what the meaning of revelation is. If you call the fact that the Prophet ate food with his hands as being "revelation", then I don't know what to tell you.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Antamul: You need to start talking respectfully to people, rather than commanding people around like you're some demigod. You pipe on and on about hadith, and yet you don't know how to follow them.
Crescent: That's not what I said at all, and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Its an established fact that hadiths are not revelations, but explanations or guides to the revelation. They are the essence of it. If God commanded us to Pray, Hadiths tell us how to do it. Simple.
No PCG, but its what most people base their beliefs on, they reject certain hadiths because it goes against something they personally don't believe in.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
I didn't find them any different from yours, may be we need to change our glasses.
[quote]
Your earlier comment is also out of jgnorance of the science of hadeeth. Based on your logic the ten given glad tiding in the time of Prophet SAW would not be considered special in anyway. Which would be completely false. The authentic hadeeth verify their distinction.
[/quote]
Again, I said that I don't take "praising ahadith" as accurate and faith-binding, I respect all sahaba'e karam and its completely between Allah swt and them who goes to Heaven (of course they are way above likes of us) but their such status should not suggest that any hadith attributed to them is completely true and should be taken at their face value.
[quote]
Iconoclaust's response is sufficient for the one who wants to believe based on sound judgement, and insufficient for the one who wants to keep professing their own opinion irregardless of it being just arguments.
WHo collected the hadeeth? how was it reported? Go take a proper course on Hadeeth sciences and you will find out that these are basic questions.
See for a muslim it is imperitive that the basic belief is correct. That is believing in the Devine revealation is not just Quran, it is hadeeth as well. Where does this come from ? The verses of the quran testify to this. Scroll back on the earlier pages and you will find the verses. So just like the current shape (30 juz in a specific order and chapter (surahs) in a specific order are preserved the devine revealation of hadeeth is also preserved.
[/quote]
here you go astray.
[quote]
The only issue is the FAKE hadeeths or so called hadeeths that are being circulated.
[/quote]
How did they come into existence?
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Now that I’ve read the first post, I see that this is yet another resurrection of trying to justify that preservation of Hadith with the preservation of the Quran.
Heres the last version of the topic, and I posted quite a bit on it. Basically its a psuedoscientific argument, especially with the reversal of burden of proof.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Captain1 very nice reply.....there is no definate criterea for ALL muslims to diffrentiate between authentic and nonauhentic ahadith.
those narraters that are considered unreliable by one compiler might be very authentic according to another etc
but crescent also has a point a lot of people ignore hadith simply because they go agianst their lifestyle....
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
the point is that if you cast doubts over the recording of hadith then u shud cast doubts on Quran as well, because both have been transmitted to u thru the same sources…
only differences is that the chains of transmission have a different end…
Quran is like sahaba → prophet → jibraeel → Allah
while hadith is
sahaba → prophet (it ends here if u wish to think that the prophet spoke of his own free will and not what he was ordered by Allah)
now if u think sahaba and the people who took the hadith from the sahaba messed it up, how come u dont doubt the same ppl on transmission of Quran???