Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
can you give me name of such collection? and you said “tonnes” so I am assuming its a collection of thousands of ahadiths.
BTW, thank you for trashing any study of the religion 
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
PCG, that story was of imam bukhari and it was not a camel but a horse....
and it was not his travel companion who narrated it, but he himself says that when he saw the man calling his horse as if wanting to give him food but having an empty sack, he said "how can i trust a man who deceives an animal"....
u shud see how careful imam bukhari was in his collection....
and yet u cast doubts....
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
The people who are trying to reject hadith, and come up with fantastic logic, hardly know the History of Collection of Hadith.
Well leaving everythign apart Antumul Alona is come with Challenge no. 2, this whole thread is only meant to challenge the Hadith Rejectors, well instead of Challenging his words the are overlooking and infact answering other than the challenge.
Please anyone Rejecting Abu Hurayra, keep this in mind they are rejecting half of the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed Sala Allaahualayhi wasallam.
With due respect,I expect everyone to study the biograpy of Abu Hurayra, and well keep this in mind when bukhari scrutinized each and every narrator and wrote the biography. Do you think Abu Hurayra being a Sahaba and who narrated the most no. of hadith Sahih Bukhari, who meticulously sifted each and every hadith didnt hit his mind, why!!!!!! is that Abu Hurayra narrated the most.
Well, dont we think that the Ulema of that period, who had the the best taqwa according to the Hadith narrated by Prophet, did not scrutinize Abu Hurayra. Well these are baseless claims by orientalists against Prophet because by dimnishing Abu Hurayra they finish half of the Sunnah of Prophet.
True Story: Few days after the death of Prophet, some of the Muslims at that time used pebbles for Tasbih, Tahmeed and were saying it loud 100 times. Hazrath Abdur Rehman radi Allaahu anhu, when he got to know,he stopped it at once and woed to them and stated this was bida'h. Now these are the Sahaba Karam, who stopped any practise of Bida'h at once.
Now going back to Abu Hurayra, and keeping in mind the above paragraph Hazrath Abu Hurayra died in the Year 57H, from what I know about the History of Islam Hazrath Abdullaah ibn Umar died around 59H, and the 3 Abdullaah's were sacrificed in Kerbala in 60H,
Such great sahabas who relinquished everything during the time of Fitnah and concentrated on spreading the religion, just keeping in mind the Last sermon of Prophet, whoever is present please spread this knowledge to who is absent now. Well this was the basic concept where most of the Sahaba Karam, who were at the forefront to fight for Islam withdrew and opened there own schools(Here I am not mentioning the Madhabs).
Well the best of Tabieens were from the schools of Abdullaah ibn Masood, Abu Hurayra, Anas ibn Malik, Ayesha radiAllaahuanhom. Now if we were to declare, all these facts and base our verdict is fallacy.
The Science of Hadith, was in its own way Unique in the History of Mankind, as anyone who had taqwa, sincerity did remember and knew the Mutawatir Hadith of Prophet (thats its chain of narrations was narrated by around 80 Mohaddiths).
Someone who lies about my words, then he reserves his seat in hell fire
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
You can be perfectly sunni and scrutinize the Hadith collections - no contradiction there. You're just trying to be a better muslim who is not misguided by falsities.
armughal - there are other circumstances in which he was criticized by Aisha (R), and they've come in various discussions. But that's just one example.
By the way, the "science of the hadith" that so many people defend relies on a rigid criterion of not accepting any hadith that has been presented by someone who has knowingly lied or given forth inaccurate information about the prophet.
There is one hadith/hadith collecting story in which it is described that the hadith collectors walked a highly long distance (well travelled on their camels) to seek out a claim for a hadith that was made. When they got to this claimer's home, they observed that the claimer was playing friendly tricks with the camels (i.e. showing them food and acting as if to give it to them, and then taking it away to see the camel's reaction). The collectors walked away with the reasoning that if this man can deceive a camel, why wouldn't he deceive them? They did not even bother to listen to the hadith. A man travelling with them (maybe an apprentice or something) was shocked and narrarated this incident down in history. We shared this story at a Islamic meeting we had at our university some years ago, and I still remember it.
Now, why wasn't this strict rigidity followed in other instances?
I always find it interesting that the misogynst hadith have been narrarated by Abu Huraira. Unfailingly.
That was IMam Bukhari r.a., and it was the man's ride, be it donkey horse, or camel. Such was the care put into collecting the hadiths, that a man who was decieving his donkey/horse/camel, to come eat, did not qualify as a reliable source.
Yet still we doubt.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
There are no contradictions in haidths, it only appears that way to those who are not under the shadow of a Fuqhi.
Thats known as Alahkamul Mansoosa, meaining no contradiction.
Hadiths and rulings are ambigious, and some of them have multiple meanings even some verses in the Quran. And some who have meanings that are not fixed.
Thats where a Fuqhi comes in. Not average Joes like us. To say Hadiths are false because htey contradict , is wrong, because we dont' have enuff knowledge to say that.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
PCG has it.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
We agree that during the 3rd century hijra, the Science of Hadith was its peak and the Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and the 4 sunans collated and documented in one book from different Manuscripts.
At that time, the classical hadith collection travelling was a standard, which is practised till this date. Now i would rather read a completed documented book rather than single manuscripts as I am a student of knowledge not an Alim.
Well the best eg. is any text book in our Graduation day, was documented in one Single book but the Author referenced it to many reserach work, collated them.
Same concept is for the Sihah sitta and the Science of Hadith. Well the question, hitting our mind if the Manuscripts existed at that time, where are there now.
Now the Answer
Shaikh Mohammed Mustafa Adami in his dissertation- “Studies in early hadith literature”, written in English and then translated into Arabic. In his research work, found out the Manuscripts before the advent bukhari and muslim thats the first 200 years hadith were it written down or not. Al Hamdullillaah, this research work refuted and showed 1000 works written down.
But to empahsize again the manuscripts existed and not in a book more importantly these works were collated into one book.
The sahifa or manuscripts of Hammam ibn Munabhe, Student of Abu hurayra, Hammam ibn munabhe recorded the hadith of abu hurayra and died in 110. It exists till this day around 120 hadith.
Mohammed hamidullaah, in the museum of france found every single hadith of Hammam ibn munabhe in Bukhari and Muslim.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Crescent are you suggesting that Fuqhi dont disagree about ahadis?
that is blatantly false.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
excuse my ignorance, but what is “fuqhi” 
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
perhaps arabic term for fuqaha?
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
I think he meant "Faqeeh" .. it's only the way he wrote, it seemed odd to you :-)
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
oho, then i meant fuqaha in my above post cresent. since its just one line i'll ask you again
Do you mean to say fuqaha dont disagree on sahih ahadis, and dont offer differing views on issues based on sahih ahadis?
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ o in that case, the 'no contradictions' thing was about the "ahkaam" and not about the fuqahaa themselves....
there r some 'ahkaam' on which no one disagrees....
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
agreed. there are some ahkaam about which no faqeeh disagree, or very marginalized ones would. obviously im stepping in a thread on the third page so im missing context as to what ahkaams you folks are talking about. i just read this line:
[quote]
There are no contradictions in haidths, it only appears that way to those who are not under the shadow of a Fuqhi.
[/quote]
which IMO is completely untrue. as long as your talking about people under the shadow of the same faqeeh mayyybe (although fuqaha are known to change their opinions about ahadis) but if your talking about two different faqeehs then i would bet i could find you a hundred difference of opinion about sahih ahadis (dont ask me to count to a 100) between fuqaha of the same group same subgroup same subsubgroup.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ well the contradiction is like one hadith telling u that a certain thing is halal and another one telling u that it is haram.....
do we have such contraditions????
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
That doesn't make the hadith wrong. Their entitled to their own opinions. But the Hadith itself, or the Verse of the Quran is not wrong. Thats what I meant to say, and thats what is being put under scrutiny here.
take the word Qurooh, it has two meanings, "women's period" and "purity Period", both are refferred to Qurooh.
You can have ur opinion on what it is, but it doesn't make it wrong. Since they're right.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
Contradictions "appear" in some, for example (using near meaning) there are hadiths in sahih bukhari where Prophet pbuh told muslims to kill any dog they sight, for dogs are not acceptable to keep as pets. But then we see another rulign where dogs should not be killed, and rahter kept as sheppard/guard dogs outside the house.
One can say this is contradictory. But we have to understand the circumstances in which they were recorded, and **especially the **time frame.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
yar your mixing two different issues. whether or not the wording of two ahadith can be conflicting, and whether or not the understanding of two ahadith can be conflicting.
both the wording and understanding of ahadith often conflicts. How you rationalize it depends on how much you respect those you disagree with. Obviously you are not God so you cannot say that your understanding of context is the correct one. Also, you cannot seriously suggest that everyone so far who has had a different opinion on the veracity of certain ahadith versus others is actually one of the following clueless people:
a. did not do his research before giving a fatwa
b. did not know how to read arabic
c. lacked basic logic skills
given all three are taken out of the equation, the only way two rational people with grounding in fiqh can disagree on an issue based on sahih ahadis and quran is that they are taking different ahadis as basis. If two different ahadis applied with their correct contexts and with correct logic and understanding lead to different interpretations then there are occasions of conflict between sahih ahadis.
You understand that those who compiled the ahadis never made the claim that their verification was final. Which means that no matter how much correctness you attribute to them post humously you are making a claim they never made, infact went to lengths to explain that their effort was the best they could. I could accept that they made the honest best effort they possibly could, I cannot accept that their efforts were absolutely correct, because only God is absolute.
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^ ravage, ppl disagree on issues even based on verses from the Quran, which they interpret differently....
Re: Challenge for Hadeeth Rejectors
^good point. as a shia I believe that there is one correct understanding of the Quran, and that no two verses of the Quran conflict as per that understanding. What that understanding is unfortunately people do not know. till a time that it is known, all understanding of the Quran is subject to debate and revision. that belief is grounded in Quranic verses that state explicitly that God will protect what He has revealed.
In the absence of that belief however, I cannot give rational arguments (by rational i mean not grounded in religious belief) when someone takes out pieces from the Quran and shows an apparent inconsistency. There are seemingly contradictions in the Quran, in wording and understanding, but I believe they are as a result of either
a) misplaced context
b) misunderstood language
c) faulty logic
I cannot claim that sitting under any given faqeeh will ensure that I will never run into inconsistencies, because the inconsistencies themselves often stem from two faqeeh's understandings.
Given that nobody claims that the Bukhari, Muslim etc were identified as the authentic, final, undoubtable compilers of official ahadis by Allah, they are not the same standard as Allah. If you wish to give them that status on the basis of something you derive from Allah or the Prophet's words, so be it, I will not contest that, but then you cannot claim to be taking the rational road.