Remember! owning large tracts of land or big factories is not a crime. In fact large capital is one of the essential building blocks of a prosperous society.
Owning land is not the part of "feudal lords", what you do based on that makes you one. If you treat workers as 'slaves' and enforce your on laws on them, thats a crime. If you block their education/welfare/reform, thats a crime.
Owning land is not the part of "feudal lords", what you do based on that makes you one. If you treat workers as 'slaves' and enforce your on laws on them, thats a crime. If you block their education/welfare/reform, thats a crime.
Well that's true for every wealthy person. Some will be good and some will be bad. However we should not criminalize every wealthy person, every land owner, and every industrialist. That is if we are not living in a communist country.
So if some people are voting for land owning aristocracy, it should not be pooh poohed as "the joke" seems to imply.
Thats true - Punjab is more open for business than other areas. i have not oticed many Sindhis, Balochis in Punjab but there are a lot of pashtuns who are employed as workers, have their own small to large business.
In 99% of cases this landed aristocracy does not give its subjects the right to vote for who they want.
Most of these landlords use their power and wealth to benefit themselves and evade law and justice.
Being rich is perfectly fine - i would love to be a landlord - but i would hate to be those typical pakistani landlords who try and control every aspect of their subjects lives.
Based on my limited view, Punjab is more developed because their is less of a bickering and infighting between urban Punjab and rural Punjab.
Urban Punjab treats other ethnicities pretty much like their own. A typical Punjabi urban centers is open for business to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Mohajirs, or Balochis etc.
And perhaps those guys are more "capitalistic" and law abiding than the other provinces. Eventually the money grows better in Punjab.
Thus it is not simply "corruption" issue, it is how these guys live their lives with a bit less hostility to others.
See this is precisely why Sindh is less developed. Intellectuals like you are always looking at landed class as somehow "evil". That voting for landed aristocracy in your eyes is "terrible".
Remember! owning large tracts of land or big factories is not a crime. In fact large capital is one of the essential building blocks of a prosperous society.
Well that's true for every wealthy person. Some will be good and some will be bad. However we should not criminalize every wealthy person, every land owner, and every industrialist. That is if we are not living in a communist country.
So if some people are voting for land owning aristocracy, it should not be pooh poohed as "the joke" seems to imply.
Very true !!!
People who generate business are valuable people and if our society has to grow economically we have to give up hostility against these people. Matured societies consider people who generate business as their heroes and they treasure these classes. We must give due respect to agriculturist, industralist, traders etc. instead of calling them feudals, blood suckers, chors etc. However people who don not follow law and commit frauds against the society should be dealt severly with strict implementation of laws. However legitimate business activity must be respected, and people who generate business must be given due respect !!!
Thats true - Punjab is more open for business than other areas. i have not oticed many Sindhis, Balochis in Punjab but there are a lot of pashtuns who are employed as workers, have their own small to large business. .
Yes. that's true for north, north-central Punjab.
However if you are closer to the border of Sindh then there will be more of chance for Sindhis to do business.
Similarly Punjab areas bordering Balochistan will have higher tendency to accommodate Baloch origin folks.
...... In 99% of cases this landed aristocracy does not give its subjects the right to vote for who they want. ...
OK you may have a point based on the voting patterns in Pak.
let's not forget though that most of the people in rural areas of Pakistan, India, BDesh vote for their biradri, tribe, caste, ethnicity etc.
Mayawati, Lallu Parsad etc. type politicians get elected year after year after year regardless of their performance, regardless of their lawlessness etc.
Closer to home, Mohajir "biradri" has given votes to some of the most corrupt leaders from Karachi year after year after year just because someone comes by and tell us "hum hain to mohajir".
So voting patterns in the whole of subcontinent are kind of skewed in favor of "special interests".
.......
Most of these landlords use their power and wealth to benefit themselves and evade law and justice. ....
So are the urban leaders. They too flaunt their power and run and hide from the law. Then why to blacken only one class?
The bottom line is that "two wrongs do not make one right". However we the educated elite should not color everything with classist or ethnic-ist paint.
yazdi they are not generating any business for Pakistan but for themselves. the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.
the average life of the feudal serf has not changed in the last 60 years. they have no rights at all. burqposh you keep going on about how tribal areas are not law abiding yet do you know policemen have to ask permission to enter feudal lords lands?
i dont know why you are bothered about certain groups being taintd when you constantly taint "Islamists" and "tribals". the feudal system needs to be changed. its a big problem in Pakistan.
theres nothing wrong with voting for your own birdari, friends etc - you vote for them because they will bring you something. urdu speakers are quite rigt to vote for mqm as they are the right party for them - they have done a lot more for karachi than others - or shall i say where their vote bank lies and not the whole of karachi. yes the people who are elected are very corrupt but what can other parties do for karachi?
theres nothing wrong with being a landlord but the whole system revolves around the exploitation of the poor. this is of 0 benefit to pakistan. its wrong to taint all feudals like that but 99% are exploitative.
why dont they pay their serfs some decent wages? why dont they treat them as humans? why dont they allow them to vote forwho they want too?
how does all of this benefit pakistan?
PS the whole debate centres around feudals because of the point about how the PPP is highly supported in the Seraiki Belt. thats why i am not blackening the other just as guilty classes ie the industrials, mullahs, generals who alos abuse their power and position
just to add - there are not many baloch workers in punjab who migrate from balochistan - most baloch working in punjab are actually from punjab's seraiki portions.
^^ I see that your arguments are the same old anti-rurual culture. These arguments of exploitation of the poor by big mean landlord are in fact come from our background steeped in UP and Bihar. Yes the landlords "back home" had much more serious issues than what Punjab or Sindh have seen.
Especially Bihar is the worst hit classist warfare area with "Sena" / militia of landlords constantly fights their counterparts from the landless class.
Unfortunately our community has brought the same "sena" culture with us and we superimpose the same old $hite on Sindhis and Punjabi rural areas.
Take the case of Punjab, 90% of the Punjabi educated elite is typically first generation "city dwellers" and thus have grown in the so called "feudal" culture. You every wonder why?
Read on!
Do you see a "sena" of landless peasants fighting tooth and nail their landed class?
No because Sindhi Punjabi culture is different from Bihari culture. And thus we should not think of Punjabi Sindhi rural areas like Bihari rural areas.
It doesn't do our country good, and simply starts a pathetic and degenerate class warfare.
Another ignorance that our community has about Punjab and Sindh rural areas is that somehow they are all filled with teaming poor Maoist and communist masses.
That may be true for many parts of our "mother country" i.e India, but that ain't true for our adopted country aka Pakistan.
Punjab and Sindh rural areas have existed in "relative" harmony.
And especially in Punjab, the rural landlords have allowed to large extent access to government education, and a slow but orderly migration to the urban areas. That has helped to some degree a relatively clean and peaceful expansion of the urban centers in Punjab.
And that's why 90% urban elite in Punjab is from rural areas who are prospering in cities these days. And that's one of the many reasons why Punjab as a province is doing well compared to Sindh.
The same thing would have happened in Sindh too. Unfortunately our community blocked off Sindhis from the urban areas.
We built virtual walls around Sindh Urban and wiped out local Sindhis and thus stopped the orderly flow of Sindhis from rural areas to urban centers. Mass expansion of cities in Pakistan in the post 1947 era was clearly denied to the Sindhi rural areas. And our community is one of the biggest culprit.
Now we are audacious enough to blame the Sindhi rural population using classist and castiest warfare just like what has been happening in Bihar and UP for 100s of years.
So do not forget the biases that our community has brought with us from India and now it refuses to let all that cr@p go.
Thank you.
yazdi they are not generating any business for Pakistan but for themselves. the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.
Joke bhaijan,
Can you tell me what's the cause of poor getting poorer, however I do not agree that in Pakistan rich are getting richer. All this is happening because there is not enough business generation in Pakistan compared to population explosion.
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the average life of the feudal serf has not changed in the last 60 years. they have no rights at all. burqposh you keep going on about how tribal areas are not law abiding yet do you know policemen have to ask permission to enter feudal lords lands?
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I am not advocating lawlessness of any sort. Be it against the rich or be it against the poor.
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i dont know why you are bothered about certain groups being taintd when you constantly taint "Islamists" and "tribals". the feudal system needs to be changed. its a big problem in Pakistan.
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I consistently post against these religious terrorist because they are the single most group who have damaged our national image more than anyone else. Our country is considered most dangerous country in the world scaring off international investors, buyers of goods, technicians, mineral explorers, agriculture scientist, engineers,and anyone who can help us generate more business in this country.
We must understand very clearly that in today's competitive world we can not achieve any sort of economic advancement living in isolation.
[quote]
theres nothing wrong with voting for your own birdari, friends etc - you vote for them because they will bring you something. urdu speakers are quite rigt to vote for mqm as they are the right party for them - they have done a lot more for karachi than others - or shall i say where their vote bank lies and not the whole of karachi. yes the people who are elected are very corrupt but what can other parties do for karachi?
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I don't think mohajir bradri belongs to terrorist baradari. In an enviornment of terror and violence where political opponents are killed and not allowed to even visit Karachi, MQM can not be passed on as a party of mohajir bradri. I may not agree with Imaran Khan's views but tell me why he is threatened if he plans to visit Karachi. Why incidents like May 12th occur in Karachi. If mohajirs vote for MQM in an enviornment where this politics of terror and violence is not present, where people who critisize MQM are not running for their lives, and where media is free to say anything aginst this party without fearing their lives I have no objection mohajirs vote for MQM if this vote is only to safe guard their economic interests.
Mind you there are other baradris also living in Karachi..you can not become a terrorist against others or people who oppose you and say we are safe guarding our economic interest..
My brother...if you are voting for MQM you are voting for a criminal sitting in London who has brain washed you. Can you imagine the fate of anyone of his own people like Haider Abbas Rizvi or this shipping minister if they say anything against this kala bhoot..wake up from your brain washing and stop voting for this criminal..
[quote]
theres nothing wrong with being a landlord but the whole system revolves around the exploitation of the poor. this is of 0 benefit to pakistan. its wrong to taint all feudals like that but 99% are exploitative.
why dont they pay their serfs some decent wages? why dont they treat them as humans? why dont they allow them to vote forwho they want too?
how does all of this benefit pakistan?
[/quote]
First of all let me clarify your misconception. Agriculture is not a very lucrative business in Pakistan. It needs lot of research, modern technology, fair price mechanism, and water resources from new dams if we have to go any furthur in this field.
About your question regarding how does agriculture benefit Pakistan...let me tell you very clearly...if we don't pay attention to the advancement of agriculture as an industry, our future generations will be starving with the kind of population explosion we have..
As far as exploitation of agriculture labour force is concerned I am all in favour of applying labour laws to safe guard their interest. It is a crime to exploit any sort of labour, and law must take it's course to stop all this. We must restructure our police and judiciary who can stop this exploitation, rather than killing every agriculturist in Pakistan...
Killing all the agriculturist in Pakistan will surely not benefit Pakistan in any way !!!
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PS the whole debate centres around feudals because of the point about how the PPP is highly supported in the Seraiki Belt. thats why i am not blackening the other just as guilty classes ie the industrials, mullahs, generals who alos abuse their power and position
just to add - there are not many baloch workers in punjab who migrate from balochistan - most baloch working in punjab are actually from punjab's seraiki portions.
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Can you tell me what do you mean by the term feudal.
Let's take the example of Jhangir Tarin. He is an agriculturist MNA from Saraiki belt.
Mr. Tarin grows about 10,000 bales of contamination free cotton with about twice the productivity of other farmers. He is amodel for other cotton growers who if follow him can bring a cotton revolution in Pakistan by enhancing the quality and productivity of their cotton...
Mr. Tarin grows sugar on leased farm land and his sugar recovery is much higher than anyother agriculturist in Pakistan..
Mr. Tarin is experimenting new tehniques in dairy farming by applying technical expertise from all over the world. If his techniques are applied in Pakistan it can bring dairy revolution in Pakistan..
Mr. Tarin is growing out of season tomatoes, potatoes and other vegetables in green houses..an experiment which can bring a lot of saving of foreign exchange by supplying tomatoes to ketch up manufacturers all through the year, and quality potatoes to fast food industry who have to rely on imports presently..
Is this man our new breed of feudal...according to your understanding ? He is an MNA !!! he is from Saraiki belt, he is running sugar mills, and he is a big agriculturist....
You are right he is doing it for himself...but don't you think it is the right way of doing for himself ?
I may not agree with his political views as he was a supporter of murdood dictator for many years, but I can assure you we need many more feudals like him who can bring new concepts, tehnologies, increase productivity and generate business in our country !!!
Lastly please try to understand the point I am trying to make...do you have any solution other than generation of business in Pakistan...should we go back to Bhutto days of nationalisation...mind you despite massive denationalisation of last 20 years we are still paying 125 billion rupees to corporations like PIA, steel mill, railway, Wapda, and a lot of these public sector white elephants per annum...
Societies who give due respect to people who geneate business and teach their youngsters to follow their examples prosper economically...In USA Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Henry Ford are text book chapters in their colleges and schools...we must also include Mansha, Tarin, Dawood, Habib, and Babar Ali as our text book chapters...and teach common people that they are our heroes instead of labelling them as blood suckers, feudals, chors if we really want the condition of our poor masses to change !!!
Societies who give due respect to people who geneate business and teach their youngsters to follow their examples prosper economically...In USA Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Henry Ford are text book chapters in their colleges and schools...we must also include Mansha, Tarin, Dawood, Habib, and Babar Ali as our text book chapters...and teach common people that they are our heroes instead of labelling them as blood suckers, feudals, chors if we really want the condition of our poor masses to change !!!
Societies who follow law and order are the ones that prosper. If a landlord pushes away facilities like schools/education for the people of area under his "control" then that landlord no matter how much "revenue" he generates needs to be prosecuted and punished.
Societies who follow law and order are the ones that prosper. If a landlord pushes away facilities like schools/education for the people of area under his "control" then that landlord no matter how much "revenue" he generates needs to be prosecuted and punished.
Totally agreed !!!
But...
It's the duty of law enforcement agencies and judiciary to implement the law...and if they are failing to enforce law let's restructure these sectors instead of starting a campaign against every businessman and agriculturist in the country !!!
...and it's not only the revenue, these people also generate employment, goods, services, etc. etc.
...and captaan bhijan,
Not everyone is bad. Syed Babar Ali has established LUMS...Mansha is a major contributor to Care Foundation providing quality education to more than 100,000 very poor children...do you think these are small achievements in the field of education. It will be a biiiiig mistake if politicians turn masses against this most productive segment of the society just like Bhutto did by calling them blood suckers or what MQM is doing by calling them feudals just to gain petty political gains.
@ burqaposh Where did Bihar come into this debate? How did Bihar ever become a part off this debate about Pakistani provincess? Is nt Bihar a state in India, somewhere on the east side somewhere?
Please englighten me!
@ yazdi - the MQM is a political party which has constantly used terror as a way of trying to keep control over its constituency.
they have killed thousands of pakistanis from other ethnicities and their own too. just because they are not a "religious" organisation does not make them any better. one should not define things through the eyes of the USA. we should learn to define our own problems and not be told by others what they are.
Bhutto and their family are just part of that same bloodsucker network. They may not had as much land as other feudal lords but still they are landlords.
So burqaposh and yazdi support feudals based on what little they have done?
Do you personally think its acceptable to rob humans of their dignity, their honour, their self-esteem, their self-rspect just because they work for you? Do you think its acceptable to keep the society you have power over backward, uneducated, hungry just because they work for you?
It amazes how some Pakistanis will support and justify any person just because they have power!
@ burqaposh Where did Bihar come into this debate? How did Bihar ever become a part off this debate about Pakistani provincess? Is nt Bihar a state in India, somewhere on the east side somewhere?
Please englighten me!
Bihar and UP DRIVE the cultural and historical underpinnings that define our community's attitude towards Pakistan's land owner class.
Hope that helps.
No i dont undersdtand it. I have very little knowledge of UP and Bihar so i dont understand how it can define any of my views.
Im waiting for a detailed explanation.
No i dont undersdtand it. I have very little knowledge of UP and Bihar ..
That's the problem with our community. We don't know about our roots, so we are like lost kids in our adopted homelands of Punjab and Sindh.
And just like the lost kids, we tend to cry and shout at others without having an iota of knowledge about our current situation.
And just like the deathly-afraid lost kids, we don't have any respect for our host cultures either.
Had we known and learned about our roots from our forefathers, we would have been much better citizens of Pak.
... Im waiting for a detailed explanation.
I hope you read the post #87 in this thread in a coolheaded way. It is just a small window to show you and others in our community, some of the reasons for our outbursts against the landowning class in Punjab and Sindh, and our derogatory attitude towards the predominantly rural cultures of Punjab and Sindh.
another mockery of numbers. for the sake of counter argument: bottom line is sir amount of money sindh deposits in the pool it doesnt get its due share, i dont know what someone was trying to prove using the dividing total with each and every single individual but matter of fact is Punjab get huge share and other three get less one of them sindh deposits almost 50%+ of total revenue, natural resources etc, although they need more as much of development in punjab is already done.
Although I hate provincialism. But let me remind you that Punjab is paying the electricity bills of all the three provinces. They refuse to pay even the electricity bills. Karachi which is the pocket of Pakistan according to our founder. Karachi is paying very few taxes because of the crook Altaf Hussain.
The Solution.
The tax collection should be under the control of provincial governments. Taxes collected from a province should be spent only on that province. There should be separate 5 year old plans in all the provinces. And their progress and quality should be dependable on the taxes paid by the public. When the people protest that why needed progress is not being made. The answer of the government should be "Pay the taxes first, then ask questions." If the West is developing then their nations also pay the tax. People want progress for free. But they forget that their is nothing for free in this world. Every one has to pay.
Punjab gets more share because Punjab has the biggest population. And most of us pay the taxes. And by the way PPP is more corrupt than PML N. PML N are not ideal but they do give some benefits to the industrialists and businesses. Zardari is the biggest example of corruption in Pakistan.
This is not a brainwashing....this is a hard fact you are trying to hide behind the facade of Pakistani nationalism. Punjab is effectively manning, controlling, and housing the nuclear installations and assets. The command and control structure that deployes the nuclear weapons comprises entirely of Punjabis. Even the actual assets are being gaurded by elite Punjabi troops (with loyalty of Mahajars, Pashtuns, etc. in question to do so). Most of the Punjabis are aware and conscious their power and proud of it but try to conceal it.
The irony is they are dumping the nuclear waste in Dera Ismail Khan and Baluchistan.
I think , Dr, Abdul Qadeer Khan is an urdu speaking Muhajir. I think Pervaiz Musharaf is an urdu speaking Muhajir, I think , Z.A Bhutto is a sidhi, I think Ayub Khan is a Pathan. All of these men have been in position of power. It was the then Chief of Army staff and his Assistant Musharaf who both knew about our neuclear assets and where these are present. How can you say that pUnjabi elite are protecting the neuclear assets. How foolish it is to speak or think even. I am son of an Army officer. Army is an instiution where neither you are punjabi, nor sindhi, nor pakhtun nor balochi. You are Pakistani. All of these men couldn't have risen from the ranks if the Punjabis were dominant in any way or if non Punjabis were treated un fairly. Let me be honest. What our rulers do is favor Punjab to win its support and to remain in Power. But this also has been done by non punjabis. For instance Ayub developed more industries in Punjab than in other provinces. Z.A Bhutto and other people also concerntrated in Punjab. But again I would say that without paying the tax how can you even think of expecting investment.
By the way grass root level politics was introduced for the same reason. I believe that those who will elect the right Nazims and pay the taxes will have the world's best Mayors in every place and eventually Pakistan will start developing. Otherwise whining and crying and blaming on province will bring you no where.
Based on my limited view, Punjab is more developed because their is less of a bickering and infighting between urban Punjab and rural Punjab.
Urban Punjab treats other ethnicities pretty much like their own. A typical Punjabi urban centers is open for business to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Mohajirs, or Balochis etc.
And perhaps those guys are more "capitalistic" and law abiding than the other provinces. Eventually the money grows better in Punjab.
Thus it is not simply "corruption" issue, it is how these guys live their lives with a bit less hostility to others.
See this is precisely why Sindh is less developed. Intellectuals like you are always looking at landed class as somehow "evil". That voting for landed aristocracy in your eyes is "terrible".
Remember! owning large tracts of land or big factories is not a crime. In fact large capital is one of the essential building blocks of a prosperous society.
Punjab is more developed because Punjab did the least resistence against the British. Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP did the most. So Punjab was already developed compared to other provinces. Then Punjab is an agricultural province. And because of cities like Lahore, Sialkot, Gujraat, and Faisal Abad, people do businesses here and those businesses flourish. Now you will get your answer that by asking another question that Why Karachi is more developed than the rest of the sindh. Because this city is near the sea. And because of trade business flourished. That is why it is developed and rich and is called the pocket of Pakistan according to Mr. Jinnah.
Case of Punjab...we refuse to be lesser citizens...
So just because I hate the feudal culture it makes me a Muhajir? Are Muhajirs the only people within Pakistan decent enough to hate the feudal culture? I know plenty of people from Balochistan ,NWFP, Punajb , Sindh who hate feudalism.
Why dont you actually visit Pakistan and see it - your mindset will change! Its the only remedy.
Is it me or you justify the fact that money comes before humanity?
That's the problem with our community. We don't know about our roots, so we are like lost kids in our adopted homelands of Punjab and Sindh.
And just like the lost kids, we tend to cry and shout at others without having an iota of knowledge about our current situation.
And just like the deathly-afraid lost kids, we don't have any respect for our host cultures either.
Had we known and learned about our roots from our forefathers, we would have been much better citizens of Pak.
I hope you read the post #87 in this thread in a coolheaded way. It is just a small window to show you and others in our community, some of the reasons for our outbursts against the landowning class in Punjab and Sindh, and our derogatory attitude towards the predominantly rural cultures of Punjab and Sindh.