Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
Ravage, the last I checked we had a representative government, why didnt they express the felling of the people in the right direction? Why the Presidents, PM ,CM were not leading these protests? Issuing cozy press releases was never the call of the day. First the people are failed by the leadership and on top of that they are blamed for acting as a mob. What did they expect from the un perh jahil awam some enlightened behavior?
Its always easy to blame the Awam for their and ills and expressions but its very hard to expect good from the leadership.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
Firstly the government has condemned these cartoons, much like any other Muslim country. if you're expecting anything beyond much more effective beyond recalling diplomatic staff (which apparently is being considered) I dont think you're very realistic about a Muslim country's influence in the modern world. and like all other politicians the party in power marched in today's politicians protests in Islamabad. Secondly to minimize pre-planned attacks (i cannot believe the Punjab assembly building, a christian missionary school just happened to be on the route of the mob and thereby sufferered in its blind rage) as mob reaction to ineffective government is not helpful. When defending an Islamic figure, atleast do the Islamic thing, condemn this idiocy and dont seek to find excuses for it. There has been inefficient governments before, there have been protests before, and unless people are incited to this behavior they dont do it on their own. Calling your people jahil and incapable of any form of reaction except for looting and burning buidings betrays a very sad perspective on your own kind. This was in a city, and most of the people i saw were wearing western clothing and were presumably from urban areas, atleast grade school educated.
There are other ways of countering this. Boycott economically. Demand that the govt recalls its diplomatic staff, which I believe they are anyway. But for God's sake why would you want to attack and hurt your own people and property because of what someone else said? How can you find excuses for that?
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
Ravge, I agree, I am not supporting their act of burning Pakistan down, my whole point is that the government should have been more proactive. Who in the government didnt see this coming? Its been going on for days or months but absence of leadership from the protest did lead it to become a mob.
I think the Pakistani government has been very slow in reacting to all this, its just another milestone for its impotency.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
It has been impotent because it has not choice. A condemnation from Pakistan holds stronger influence in the west than say when Egypt or Iran comment. Why? Because we are the only military power in the Islamic world. Secondly this can easily be seen by the 3 different articles on BBC, Washington Post and another article discussing how Pakistan has not reacted as badly as the rest of the Islamic world has.
Pakistan sadly holds importance and never uses it.
The US govt has struck within Pakistan twice in the past month. It is not an issue of them doing it because they can. It is sending a very strong message to the Pakistani Govt. We can do whatever we want so you better play to our rules.
The same applies in this case. The Govt will not do anything because they are beholden to the EU and the US. Remember we still owe them a great deal of money and Musharraf's hold on the govt is dependent on US legitmacy. Nothing is stopping the US to label Pakistan a terrorist state.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
Violent protests, burning of Punjab Assembly, attacking private businesses, burning of private vehicles, chanting death slogans so on and so on, it only confirms the image which is being satirized by the Danish cartoons ie Muslims are intolerant, barbaric, violent, miserable people.
Moderate muslims have been advocating a measured approach to avoid inflamming of passions which will have no impact whatsoever on the western media, instead would lead to damage of property, increased hostilities and another longterm negative image of muslims which will be abused to start new wars and subjugation.
If violence is the only language people understand, then they should be prepared for an equal and opposite reaction.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
MiniMe do you mean it was slow in reacting to the mob or to the cartoons? If it is the cartoons then maybe yes, but I still dont think today's criminality should be tolerated or condoned or even attempted to be understood. if you mean they should have somehow prevented the mob from doing what they did.. how do you propose they do that?
there was tv footage of the mob having guns and firing (not in the air)
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
^ It was slow on both ends. Ravage, how did they manage to control the protest in Islamabad, couldnt they do the same in Lahore? As I said leadership plays a pivotal role in these moments.
CM summarized it well, and I think that the government still has the chance to become proactive and channel this anger in the right direction.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
They did not manage to stop the protest in Islamabad. The protestors got into the diplomatic enclave, arguably the most secure area in Pakistan outside of our nuclear installations and Musharraf's security cordon.
Whether, this was deliberate or a genuine lapse of security I can not know.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
in addition, i dont think short of gunning down a lot more than 2 people anything could have stopped the mob. dont know if the government should have done that, but why did things come to that point?
i agree that the govt could show more spine when it comes to standing up to international powers that be, but I think the extent of that spine is limited. i dont buy the argument that this military dictatorship needs to tow the line of the powers that be, I dont suppose nawaz or benazir ever showed much spine either.
we could go the Iran route, but Iran has its oil and gas to keep its people from starving. do you suppose we should become like the dear departed taleban?
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
Why did things came to that point?
Because the government didn’t want to get involved in it, it image conscious, it wants to tell the west that its moderate and all the people on the streets are some sort of extremists. And Ravage its not about Nawaz or BB or even Musharaf, its about standing for what you think is right, for once. This was an attack on Islam, the believe and what Islam stands on, I am not expecting Musharaf to act like Bush, rather I want him to stand with the people of Pakistan and do what is right, nobody can bomb Pakistan for defending the Holy Prophet.
Issuing cozy interviews, as if you are afraid that your image would be tarnished, would do no good for Islam, Pakistan or even Pakistanis.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
apparently it escaped their notice that these cartoons were published in denmark and that they were condemned by america.
the reaction is now becoming very confusing to me. should u support ppl's anger when they are using this incident as an excuse to hate the entire west?
if u do support this, how can u then condemn those in the west who use the riots as an excuse to hate all muslims?
respecting religion means burning buildings and killing ppl?
also, when u say others do not respect their religion because they dont react the way muslims do, are u also saying that the only way for a non-muslim to respect her religion is to respect that religion the way muslims do theirs? this ignores the fact that each religion is very different and calls 4 a different mode of respect. i thought islam was tolerant, but it does not sound like tolerance when we expect other religions to behave exactly like islam.
maybe you'll say, "but these cartoons were not acts of tolerance, so why should we tolerate the ppl who thought they were ok?" ok, should muslims only be tolerant so long as others are tolerant? are you saying that it's ok to ignore/lower/debase the principles of islam if people of other religions don't show tolerance????????????
Did i say burning buildings is respecting ur religion... no, so stop twisting my words. **
**also i did not say "but these cartoons were not acts of tolerance, so why should we tolorate the ppl who thought they were ok?" you assumed i would said that,stop assuming things and read what i would of said....that the people who are burning the bulidlings and chantting "death to america" have a weak knowledge of islam, in islam anger and violence is haram,it is forbiden.
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
This is perversion of religion at its best. Needless to say, any Muslim or a true bearer of Faith wouldn't have indulged in such deplorable acts of bane and destruction. Sad is the fact that in the name of whom all this mischief is carried out, happened to be the guiding light for all mankind. Alas! where's that faith, patience and compassion which should be the illuminative principles for all Muslims. If there's mockery, incitement and loathing from one end, the response at many instances is equally reprehensible. If there are external entities who now have more ammunition for affliction, there's certainly isn't any absence of indigenous elements who would allow themselves to be used upon the calls of fraudulent and devious religious figures. The same figures who sell their faith for a miserable price...May Allah makes us the true bearer of Faith in Islam - in patience and perseverance - like Abraham, Ismail, Jacob, Joseph, and Mohammad...
Re: Cartoon related threads/Protests (all threads merged)
In order to protect Pakistani property from further destruction, the government should immediately pass legislation outlawing public gatherings of more than 200 people without a previously obtained permit.
