Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
in your first couple of Q - there is no choice. If you encounter somebody who is going to hurt innocent lives - you have to report it to the authorities.
I am just not too sure, if talking directly on the matter , before reporting, is the wisest choice.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Nice to know the FBI and CIA are at it, spreading the completely ineffective methods of tackling organized crime (terrorism falls under organized crime) to other countries. This is nothing new, the Washington and Naples (UN) parallel conferences in 1994 wanted a collaborative international effort to tackle transnational organized crime, under an American mandate of course.
As always, the efforts are heavy on the rhetoric, empty on the empiricism. Sting operations and the like are proven unsuccessful. They have not tackled organized crime since the prophibition (instead have made it more complex and the groups have adapted to the inept enforcement methods) and they will do nothing now. Officials fail to recognize that their methods are built to tackle a conspiracy, a made up version of organized crime that has no basis in empirical reality (including an organized Al Qaeda conspiracy, forgetting there is no damn organized Al Qaeda). They never tackle the problem at the root, they just militarize the whole country. Utterly ineffective.
Good luck to CSIS anyway.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
McCarthyism anyone? Punishment for association and membership, rather than actual action, anyone? Death of democracy anyone? A new Camp X-ray goat fucc anyone?
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
actually its not a large number of ppl, even if you look at the GS sample, there are a handful who fit the bill, but they too are really more talk. Kinda reminds me of the whle grunge/alternative movement, many posuers running around.
the vast majority of gupsters dont even bother with such discussions, which says a lot.
5 people in a street corner beatiing drums and screaming at the top of their lungs do not represent the entire neighbourhood that is just trying to mind its own business :)
Thats why Muslims happen to be the most persecuted group in the world at the moment, due to antipathy of majority and benedict arnolds, read mir Jaffars and Sadiqs, amongst us...
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
You'd be surprised, a large number of non-muslims in the west also have sympathies for the so called terrorists...really embarasses the prick out of moderately enlightened, collaborative and conformist, brown sahibs....
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
True ..but the benedict arnolds are the exact ones who are posing and presenting themselves as the defenders of the faith. read MMA, OBL, Akhwan al Muslmeen, Al qayda, hamas, Hizb Ul Tahrir, ghurabaa, etc etc etc.
apathy is one thing, twisting faith to gain power is another.
I agree, people stuck in apathy and the thinking of 'its not my problem" need to stand up, slap these two bit mullahs around with sandals and claim back the religion from these extremist, closed minded, fanatical, jahil mullahs
but thats a diff topic. This topic was regarding one's ability to call the cops on psychos, and there is enough precedence that you can and should regardless of what ppl may say to protect themselves or their like minded pals from being reported to authorities.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
FBI and CIA are canadian police? whoaaaa
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
I still have no idea what your point of view is.
All I want to know from you is: Is it halaal or haraam for muslims to spy on other muslims?
It's a simple question, and you can replace "muslims to spy on other muslims" with something else like "alcohol", "pork", or something else haraam and it'll be the same thing.
Also, the fact is that the true muslims (mumineen) will always be the minority. "And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie." [6:116]
There's the hadeeth about the ghurabaa as well, I hope you know what it is.
And lots of other evidence which points to this.
Just because the majority of muslims have a certain opinion doesn't mean that they are correct.
I certainly hope that you take the initiative to learn more about Islam, instead of just googling for some fatwa off islamonline.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
I still have no idea what your point of view is.
Then its a YP not an MP :)
All I want to know from you is: Is it halaal or haraam for muslims to spy on other muslims?
the two statements by scholars i posted indicate very clearly that indeed it is allowed.
*Just because the majority of muslims have a certain opinion doesn't mean that they are correct. *
and just because some minority has an opinion does not mean that is correct.
I certainly hope that you take the initiative to learn more about Islam, instead of just googling for some fatwa off islamonline.
I certainly hope that you take some initiative to learn aout islam as well and not pass on unsupported statements using verses without context as evidence for your own opinions. As I said, the fatwa is from 2 scholars, like it or not take it up with them. The point here was that it is NOT black and white as you were trying to say it was.
PS1: YP = Your problem, MP = My Problem
PS2: Is google haram? or is islamonline haram? or is the scholar who stated that unaware and needs to come to you for educatiopn :)
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Okay, by saying what you have said you have gone against the Quran which is kufr. And you are citing evidence that a scholar said so, so you are taking the scholar as god then. This is what Allah warned us about in Surah Taubah when he said that the People of the Book have taken their monks and rabbis as gods.
The two fatawaa you posted are referring to specific cases and not the general case. Show me which scholar says that this applies generally. No scholar has the authority to turn haraam into halaal or halaal into haraam.
By your logic anything haraam can be turned into halaal.
I already posted the tafsir of the Ayah in question. If you want something from islamonline then read this
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546786
Thanks for the advice. I am in the process of increasing my knowledge of Islam.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
I see Pir Altaf bhai's fatways are getting popular these days...that they being widely quoted by his supporters...afflicted with such issues as a gianormous ever-growing fat neck and the inability to take one's brown-tinted aviator sunglasses at night...
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
**Okay, by saying what you have said you have gone against the Quran which is kufr. **
Its not what i have said, its what 2 scholars have said, tell them its kufr.
**And you are citing evidence that a scholar said so, so you are taking the scholar as god then. **
versus what taking your word as word of god then? I am merely posting an interpretation by scholars, while you just posted some verses without context.
**This is what Allah warned us about in Surah Taubah when he said that the People of the Book have taken their monks and rabbis as gods. **
So interpretations are haram then and kufr. Thank you very much, i can ignore all fatwa, all narrations of hadeeth by people decades after prophets passing etc.
**The two fatawaa you posted are referring to specific cases and not the general case. **
Yes, which negate your stance that was a blanketstatemen that anyoe spying will go to hell and other such statements. Thus proving your stance wrong..
**Show me which scholar says that this applies generally. No scholar has the authority to turn haraam into halaal or halaal into haraam. **
and niether do you have the abiility to turn halal into haram. forget generally, scholars noted cases where spying is allowed which basically makes the point that spying or monitoring other muslims is allowed even if under special circumstances.
By your logic anything haraam can be turned into halaal.
dont know where you are getting this from, I posted statements to two scholars which prove that a blanket satement that spying is not allowed is not an accurate statement.
I already posted the tafsir of the Ayah in question. If you want something from islamonline then read this
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546786
wait..dinn you just say we cant take fatwas.. I mean lets quote you here “you are citing evidence that a scholar said so, so you are taking the scholar as god then” .. so now all of a sudden a scholars interpretation is okay? 
Thanks for the advice. I am in the process of increasing my knowledge of Islam.
good work, jazakAllah, keep trying harder.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
interesting read maddy......
from my understanding....everyone here seems to be talking about whether it is right or wrong to "rat out" your brothers if you have evidence that he is about to carry out some kind of terrorist plot.
In the original post it mentioned that these muslim spies are PAID informers...suggesting that this is their job.
"ratting out" your brother because you just happened to find out that he is about to do something horrific and actually spying on them (as a job) are two different things. The latter is unacceptable. how can one spy on their own brothers? what's wrong with our Ummah!! Brothers spying on Brothers!! these informants say they are trying to end terrorism but by doing that they themselves are working for the biggest terrorist organization in the world!!
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Wow,
Mr. Fraudia, you truly are misguided.
I suggest that you read a book, start with the Quran.
You obviously don’t understand the concept of shirk, maybe you should learn that too. When you take the word of someone over the word of Allah then that is shirk, and saying something like “the scholar said so” doesn’t cut it.
If you read the Tafsir of the Ayah that I mentioned in Surah Taubah, the Hadeeth says that a christian said that we didn’t take our rabbis and monks as gods but the reply was you did because the rabbis and monks were declaring halaal and haraam.
The exact same situation as yours. You know that what you are saying goes against the Quran, yet you are trying to come up with some way of justifying it.
The fatawaa you posted do not make spying halaal, read them carefully. This is your interpretation of these fatawaa. If the only way you are gonna prove your point is by saying “the scholars said so”, then you are just a blind follower.
And here’s another fatwa from your favourite islamonline
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503546222&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Sure, that wasn't unexpected. There is no interospection allowed here. There is no room for improvement. There can be no fault with Muslims. If I perceive any and want to discuss it with fellow Muslims, it must be because I am brown saahib, or worse, a traitor, a Mir Jaffar, a Mir Sadiq. I guess you think i am not a Muslim either. I guess I should just hand myselv over to 'Muslim Auhtorities' somewhere so they can stone me to death. Anyone willing to give me instructions on how to do that?
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
you did however mention in the thead that they are spies 
Quote:
TORONTO – Canada’s police and intelligence agencies, through their use of paid Muslim informants, **effectively have spies **in virtually every major mosque in Toronto, according to well-connected members of the Muslim community
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Allah’s Messenger (saw) said: **“Avoid suspicion, for suspicion is the gravest lie in talk, and do not be inquisitive about one another, and do not spy on one another, and do not turn one’s back to each other; do not hate each other, be servants to Allah, and be brothers.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim from Abu Hurairah] **
He (saw) prohibited secretly listening to people’s conversations without their knowledge or approval, where he said: "He who secretly listens to people’s conversation against their wishes will have molten lead poured into his ears on the Day of Resurrection” [Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim].
JazakAllah for these verses....i was looking for them last night. I didnt read them til now. :)
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Wow,
**Mr. Fraudia, you truly are misguided. **
Just because I refuse to concur with your point that one can NEVER spy on another muslim
I suggest that you read a book, start with the Quran.
And I suggest that you read quran, and open your mind, and talk to people and get context.
**You obviously don’t understand the concept of shirk, maybe you should learn that too. **
shirk is a tangent, I mean you can clutch at straws, but that dunn do jack.
**When you take the word of someone over the word of Allah then that is shirk, and saying something like “the scholar said so” doesn’t cut it. **
ahh but its not taking someone’s word over the word of Allah but to better understand..otherwise all hadeeth, all tafsir, and everything is shirk.
If you read the Tafsir of the Ayah that I mentioned in Surah Taubah, the Hadeeth says that a christian said that we didn’t take our rabbis and monks as gods but the reply was you did because the rabbis and monks were declaring halaal and haraam.
not related to this discussion, the question here is not at all on taking someone’s word over word of god, but having scholars explain the context if you dont understand.
The exact same situation as yours. You know that what you are saying goes against the Quran, yet you are trying to come up with some way of justifying it.
No the situation here is that you have hung on to a verse without understanding any context, and want to not see reason when presented to you.
**The fatawaa you posted do not make spying halaal, read them carefully. This is your interpretation of these fatawaa. If the only way you are gonna prove your point is by saying “the scholars said so”, then you are just a blind follower. **
hey the fatwas clearly say spying is halal in those cases, therefore nagating your point that spyig is NEVER allowed.
And here’s another fatwa from your favourite islamonline
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503546222&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
quite unrelated, again youa re cluthcing at straws.
There is nothing about treason, there is nothing about providing secrets of some muslim army to a kafit army.
This is about reporting people who may be associated with psychotic extremists to a law enforcement authority.
Hey you dont have to report on your buddies, no one is forcing you. Luckily there are many among us who know right and wrong and will report psychos to teh cops rather than be persuaded to let extremists do their gig because “oh we cant report em”
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Now lets the discussion one step further. forget "spying" i.e. actively engaged in planned monitoring of specific individuals. what about reporting.
You are walk into a shop and people are talkign about robbing a place, or about blowing something up. do you go and report? they are no army of muslim ummah in war against some enemy, but some misguided crooks who need to be stopped.
There is nothing to indicate that this action is haram.
Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers
Well, I have realized that my intentions for arguing here were not entirely for the sake of Allah so you can continue to say whatever you want. I am not going to reply back.
If you read the links that I posted, then you would now be familiar with the Hadeeth mentioned about the spy and the Surah that was revealed after that incident was Surah Mumtahinah (No. 60), it's very small so I urge you to read it.