Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Interesting article indeed. The CSIS (Canadian intelligence) apparently has many Muslims, including prominent members of the Muslim community, keeping an eye on and reporting on Muslims involved in illegal activities.

But some informers are using their positions to try and frame innocent people they have a personal grudge against.

So the question arises: If you knew a Muslim was planning a criminal act such as murder, or a terrorist act of of misguidance, and you could not talk them out of it, would you keep quiet or would you alert the authorities.

If you alerted the authorities and they offered you a cash reward, would you accept it?

And if they offered to keep on paying you each month to continue to keep your eyes open for anything similar happening in future, would you accept that?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060729.TERRORMOSQUE29/TPStory/?

TORONTO – Canada’s police and intelligence agencies, through their use of paid Muslim informants, effectively have spies in virtually every major mosque in Toronto, according to well-connected members of the Muslim community.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service does not deny operating inside Muslim religious institutions, but insists that it hires informants to report on people, not places.

Those knowledgeable about mosques and the tactics of security services say it often amounts to the same thing.

“If they’re following certain people, an imam for example, and that imam is spending a lot of time at the mosque, then [the informant] is also spending a lot of time at the mosque,” even though they’re not specifically instructed to, said Yahya Fadalla, a Hamilton-based imam. Besides his religious education, Mr. Fadalla has a doctorate in computer science with a specialization in cyberterrorism and information warfare.

Spying within the Muslim community appears to be far more widespread than previously thought. In fact, one prominent Toronto imam claims Fahim Ahmad, who has been characterized as a leader among the 17 individuals charged with terror-related offences in June, was himself once offered the opportunity to become a paid informant.

The issue has taken on greater prominence since Mubin Shaikh, a CSIS and RCMP informant, publicly disclosed he played an integral part in that investigation.

Mr. Shaikh said it’s a given that intelligence authorities have many informants within the community.

“If [intelligence authorities] want to do anything, it has to be done through the Muslims,” he said in an interview. “Of course they’re going to have eyes and ears everywhere.”

Aly Hindy – the controversial imam of the Salaheddin Islamic Centre in Scarborough – said he has long been monitored by spies. “I feel sorry for them, so sometimes I try to give them something [in my speeches],” he joked.

Mr. Fadalla said most informants aren’t asked to infiltrate groups in the same way Mr. Shaikh did, but instead just keep their eyes and ears open for suspicious activity. It is unclear how much informants are paid for their work, although Mr. Hindy said some make upwards of $3,000 a month. Mr. Shaikh has claimed CSIS still owes him $300,000 for his work.

Some Muslims worry the quality of information provided to the spy agency may be compromised by an informant’s desire for income. Others complain that tipoffs may be based less on fact than personal vendettas. “People know that if I don’t like you, I can say you’re involved in terror activity and they have to investigate,” said Abdul Hai Patel, head of the Canadian Islamic Council of Imams.

Mr. Patel recalls an incident last year where a Muslim woman tried to divorce her husband. The proceedings turned acrimonious when the husband would not grant the woman a divorce – he called the RCMP to claim the woman’s brother was involved in terrorist activity. The police found no evidence to back that claim.

“It has become a tool of revenge in the community,” Mr. Patel said.

The use of informants within the community, although a long-standing tactic, became a particularly sensitive issue in the few weeks since Mr. Shaikh publicly disclosed he worked for the RCMP and CSIS. While some within the community applaud his work, others counter that his involvement may constitute entrapment.

After conducting numerous interviews to explain his role in the investigation, Mr. Shaikh has largely shied away from the news media spotlight in the past week. However, he has gone on-line to defend himself against accusations levelled by Muslim bloggers.

On one blog, where the author described Mr. Shaikh as an “ass-smootching kaffir [non-believer]” and urged him to prepare for hell, Mr. Shaikh replied: "I was at the forefront of defending Islam when not even the IMAMS had the guts to stand up.

“WHERE were all you dedicated Muslims when the Sharia issue was assailed?” he asked, referring to his previous support for the introduction of sharia law tribunals in Ontario. He also flatly denied setting up any of the 17 accused.

“I say in addition that IF it is revealed that I did in fact set them up, and thus help the kuffar [non-believers] against the Muslims and Islam – I will demand that the Muslims STONE ME and I will be guilty of Nifaaq and Kufr [hypocrisy and disbelief].”

Reached by phone, Mr. Shaikh said most of the responses he has received in the past week have been positive, including those from Muslim leaders in Toronto. Going on-line, he said, was his way of setting the record straight.

“When we all appear before the Lord, all these [allegations against me] will be on paper,” he said.

CSIS will not comment on the details of any particular case. However, agency spokeswoman Barbara Campion said the agency does not hire informants to stake out locations. While it does often rely on “human sources,” the term CSIS uses for informants, they are usually hired to provide information on individuals.

Mr. Patel said that while Muslims don’t necessarily welcome the presence of informants in their communities, many have come to expect the practice. He also doubts other agents are likely to follow Mr. Shaikh’s lead and reveal themselves to the public.

“CSIS, after hearing about one coming out, will tell the others to shut up,” he said.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Where did you get this from?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Here

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

This is BAD!!!!!

Whats wrong with this ummah!

There are specific rules, in how you deal with people doing illegal acts...but c'mon if he's ur muslim brother?

So many innocent brothers are going to jail.

Just claiming to abide by the shahaadah now a days is enuff to land u a spot in the penitentiary.

Allah have mercy :(

I would **NOT **rat anyone out, I would talk to the brother...anda c ash reward?!

What about the wrath of ALLAH!?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

If someone is deliberately setting another person up because of a personal grudge, I don't think they really care about the wrath of Allah.

Tsk.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

if you knew someone who had a gun in his hand and was going to go blow some ppl up, and you tried to talk him out of it and he did not listen, would you not report him to the police? cash reward or not..would that not be the right thing to do

what about the wrath of Allah because you did nto do what is right and the nutjob went and killed some people.

I would not think about it, someone is upto something, I am reporting him on the double. People are not kids, they made their path and have to lve with the consequences.

If it is a bigger conspiracy, stopping one person is simply not enough. I mean forget terrorism and all, blackmarketing, drug dealing, human trafficking, money laundering. If one person repents and goes his merry way because you talked him out of it has a little impact, but if the same guy voluntarily or involuntarily has to provide info on other perps and proof and details, that is so much more.

Sure ave him repent and get him a plea bargain, but just saying okay you repent, so there are no consequences for all your actions thus far is just not right in my view.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

So here’s a hypothetical situation for you - based loosly and with some modification on the Seattle shooting.

Let’s say that you casually played football (proper football, not the American or Canadian farcical version) with a couple of muslim guys from your neighbourhood in a park in the evenings. One day after playing, you’re walking back to you cars and talking. One guy quietly tells you that he had acquired an assault rifle, and told you that the tomorrow there would be vengeance for Qana and that you should just watch the news.

You try to find out what he’s talking about, but he won’t give you any details, won’t listen to you give any religious arguments about what acts are lawful in Islam and which are unlawful. He simply keeps saying that he’s going to ensure there is vengeance and that it will happen tomorrow.

You continue to try and talk him out of doing something stupid but he becomes adamant, refuses to listen to you, and storms off saying he’s going home and he’ll get his reward tomorrow.

Let’s say that he lives in your neighbourhood and you know exactly where he lives (let’s say that he lives at home with his family).

You’re still not sure if he is serious about doing something or not. What do you do?

Go home and sleep and treat it as a normal day? Or make a phone call to the police?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Sad to learn people in law-enforcement especially muslims settling personal scores this way.. :(
I have to say a small sher on Pagal Sciencedaan's brilliant revelation:

Everyone in Umma should keep quiet by giving each other Chumma,
and go to the mosque they belong to and pray on Jumma!

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Excellent question for Crescent_. I am dying to see his answer. Hopefully it will be short and to the point and will use none of the deflection such as 'but look what's happening in Lebanon."

waiting.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Allah (swt) revealed:
"O you who believe, avoid suspicion, for suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy on each other.” [TMQ 49:12]

Allah’s Messenger (saw) said: **“Avoid suspicion, for suspicion is the gravest lie in talk, and do not be inquisitive about one another, and do not spy on one another, and do not turn one’s back to each other; do not hate each other, be servants to Allah, and be brothers.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim from Abu Hurairah] **

He (saw) prohibited secretly listening to people’s conversations without their knowledge or approval, where he said: "He who secretly listens to people’s conversation against their wishes will have molten lead poured into his ears on the Day of Resurrection” [Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Sherafghan, from what I read in this article, the informants are not asked to secretly listen in on people - instead, they are asked to report any illegal activities that they know about.

The main informant in the recent 17 arrests in Toronto was a local Muslim leader who claims that these 17 men told him about and tried to involve him in their plans - which would mean he neither spied on them nor listened to their conversation against their wishes - he listened with their full knowledge and then told the intelligence services what was said because he says they were talking about killing innocent people.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Make a phone call to the police mate,

Yes there are b..stards out there that kill innocent people but I dont want to be the guilty one if he shot innocent children/adults. If my actions of reporting him stop this then so be it.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Good situation, but honeslty, what if his plans change overnight? Just because he said that** I would try everything I can to go to his house, and tell him to explain everything to me.** I wouldn't give up that early.

I mean honestly, if the brother changes his mind, or realizes something overnight? The next day he is happy he didn't go kill someone that day, instead he sees he gets arrested. Then what?

I dun't know i'd feel guilty then. Now, If I am FULLY convinced, and I know that he has everything set up, and hte next day i see him leaving with the rifle to kill someone...then I might step up and actually put an end to it.

And as for the 17 suspects, the snitch didn't tell the group he was spying on them..

Sir Dig Alot.. thank you for ur input.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Interesting - so if you couldn’t convince him, you would pin your hopes on him convincing himself not to do anything, and then on you being awake and watching his front door at the moment he left his house?

What if you were not able to convince him, you kept vigil outside his house all night long to make sure he didn’t step out with a gun - but early the next morning his garage door opens up and drives out and away - and from your position you were unable to see whether or not he had the gun in the car?

If they never asked him if he was an informer, would he have an obligation to warn them beforehand that he would report any planned illegal activity to the authorities?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

This raises another interesting ethical issue with a strong religious element.

Every year, you quietly find articles in Pakistani newspapers about Pakistani individuals, Muslim individuals found to be spying for India.

These cases tend to start off with ISI suspecting a group of mainly Muslim people, then spying on them, and listening to their conversations, in order to identify which of them is an Indian agent.

In the light of such hadiths, is counter-intelligence haraam in Pakistan? It would involve suspecting Muslims and secretly listening to their conversations against their will.

The second thing that comes to mind is the verse "O you who believe, avoid suspicion, for suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy on each other.” [TMQ 49:12].

If suspicion in some cases is a sin, what are the cases in which suspicion is not a sin? Counter-intelligence, when the goal is finding out which Muslims are betraying other Muslims? How about when trying to identify which Muslims are misguided and intending to do evil acts?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

eeewww MUSLIMS when will they learn:smack:

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

:lajawab:

[quote=mulz]
Sad to learn people in law-enforcement especially muslims settling personal scores this way.. :frowning:
I have to say a small sher on Pagal Sciencedaan’s brilliant revelation:

**Everyone in Umma should keep quiet by giving each other Chumma, **
**and go to the mosque they belong to and pray on Jumma!/**quote]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Here is another situation:

You're in Pakistan on a holiday, and you're relaxing with a friend. The friend takes you to his cousin's house, where his cousin (a student from another city) lives with 6 housemates, for dinner. You ask where the bathroom is, and they tell you that the downstairs bathroom is out of order and you'll have to go upstairs, and tell you how to find the upstairs bathroom.

Going upstairs alone, you open the wrong door and you walk into a bedroom, just as you're leaving, you notice something odd looking. You realise there is a rocket launcher, 3 assault rifles and a couple of hand grenades on the bed.

You leave, use the bathroom, and come back down.

What do you do?

Try and talk to these guys who you don't know, about what on earth they have those for? Or leave and report what you saw to the Pakistani police? Tell your friend quietly to to talk to his cousin later?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

I want to point out a few things:
1. Islam has made spying on other muslims haraam. That is clear and has lots of evidence, some of which I already posted.
There's a story that Umar radiAllahuanhu, when he was Khaleefa was walking down a street and heard something suspicious. So he peaked over the wall to see what was going on inside the house. He saw a drunk man forcing a woman to sing and dance. So, he asked the drunk if he knew what the Quran says about drinking. The drunk replied do you know what the Quran says about spying. At that point Umar got down and walked away.

  1. You guys on this thread are asking about hypothetical situations. In Islam things that are haraam MAY become halaal in certain extreme circumstances. Instead of asking some random person on the internet, I suggest that you ask some trustworthy scholar these questions. The random person will answer from their own emotions, while the scholar would answer based on Islamic knowledge.

  2. Islam is a collective religion, it is all about the community. Think about it, a community where suspicion is discouraged and spying is haraam. It would create an environment of trust. And of course you can't just apply this one little rule and expect everything to work out, one needs to apply Islam in its entirety otherwise it won't work.
    Also, keep in mind that just because Pakistan some other country does something then they are not necessarily representing Islam. Pakistan's ISI does not represent Islam, and IF they are spying on muslims then they are committing haraam.

  3. I live in T Dot, and I have been following this story. This man actually made things worse for the muslims by coming out. Now, muslims won't have that same level of trust towards their fellow muslims. And it shows the non-muslims that muslims can be bought at the right price. This guy is actually going around saying how he did Islam a great favour. SubhanAllah, he has made things worse.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

There simply can not be any excuses to not report someone involved in criminal activities or planning.