Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Okay, before I start presenting the proofs there are a few things that I want to clear up.
First is that we cannot use our whims, desires, or emotions to judge what is right and wrong because we as muslims refer to Allah to tell us what is right and wrong.
Allah says "... and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know." [2:216]

This ayaah is self explanatory. So, I don't want your opinions on this matter. The only proof I will accept and as should you is whatever is from Allah.

I noticed that almost everyone started off by voicing their own personal opinions (except for one person) instead of referring the matter to Allah and his Messenger.
Because Allah says "If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger(SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day." [4:59]

Finally, instead of just going on and on about what should be done in such and such a case, you have decided to ask for the evidence which is a good thing.
Also, I am not going to answer any specific questions of fiqh because I am not a scholar. I will convey what I've learned on the matter relating to Muslims spying on Muslims, that is it. If you have further questions then you should ask the scholars about them (not me), because I have no authority to answer any such questions.

So, inshaAllah I will post some proofs later. I want to give you some time to absorb what I have said.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Most of what these "intelligence" agencies do is based on hearsay and speculation, not facts. If I had DIRECT evidence of some sort of imminent threat then I would attempt to stop it but what will happen in this case is that 99.9% of the people will start being suspicious of each other and this will destroy our community. This is not right. Read about Muazzam Beg, the poor British Muslim who was thrown in Guantanamo for nothing, just suspicion of nothing. You will feel rage and never trust these "authorities."

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

so you dont have any info on the context of spying,a nd what is the difference between actively spying, versus being on the lookout for something strange versus seeig/hearing something strange.

and I agree, we can not use our whims and thus i cant take yoir opinion as ruling because you have noted yourself, you have no authority to answer any such questions.

All you were able to provide was some verses, and with no context, then you proceeded to tell us what your opinion was as to what those verses meant.

I will ask the scholars, Thank You.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547324

Question
Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. I want to know about the Islamic view of intelligence activities in Islamic states. Is it necessary for an Islamic state to have intelligence agencies, and can it use them against its citizens? Tell me more about this issue, please.

Date
21/Aug/2003

Topic
Imamate & Political Systems

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America states:

"Intelligence services are necessary for the states to protect their citizens from any elements that may try to break the laws or affect the security of the people.

Intelligence is not allowed to spy against people in their personal life or in managing their lawful affairs. States need intelligence to protect their borders and to make sure that there are no enemies infiltrating their states.

It is the duty of the state to provide security for all the people who live there. And for this reason intelligence activities are needed. It is important that the states use these agencies in the proper manner. It is very unfortunate that very often governments misuse the intelligence services. They abuse these services to curtail their citizens’ freedom and their human rights. Those who do that are committing wrong, but this does not mean that intelligence services in themselves are wrong."

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545476

Nevertheless, if a person is commanded to make a report regarding the work or a certain worker for the purpose of supervising the work movement and rectifying the faults, then it is necessary to provide a true and sincere image without any addition or deduction and without any intention to harm anybody. This is based on the fact that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to send expeditions to get the news of the enemy so as to prepare for the fight. ‘Acts are to be judged by intentions and everyone shall not have but what he intended.’

It should be known that secret reports constitute a form of testimony. Hence, one should be keen that they be just and true and prepare them without being affected by any reward or punishment from any person.

In this regard, it suffices to quote the following Qur’anic verses:

“O ye who believe ! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (than ye are) . So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth)…” (An-Nisa’: 135)

“And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman…” (Al-An`am: 152)

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1624

It is compulsory upon parents to monitor their children’s use of the Internet. Therefore, you may install a spying software to capture your daughter’s use of the Internet.

and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

I did say that I will post the proofs so here is one from Tafsir of ibn Kathir. If the following is not sufficient then I also know of a story from Seerah, let me know if you want to see that too.

The Prohibition of Unfounded Suspicion
Allah the Exalted forbids His faithful servants from being suspicious, which includes having doubts and suspicions about the conduct of one's family, relatives and other people in general. Therefore, Muslims are to avoid suspicion without foundation. The Leader of the faithful Umar bin Al-Khattab said, "Never think ill of the word that comes out of your believing brother's mouth, as long as you can find a good excuse for it.'' Malik recorded that Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him, said that Allah's Messenger said, "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales; do not spy on one another; do not look for other's faults; do not be jealous of one another; do not envy one another; do not hate one another; and do not desert (shun) one another. And O Allah's servants! Be brothers!" The Two Sahihs and Abu Dawud recorded this Hadith. Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not shun each other; do not ignore one another; do not hate one another, and do not envy one another, and be brothers, O servants of Allah. No Muslim is allowed to shun his brother for more than three days." Muslim and At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith, who considered it Sahih. Allah said, "And spy not", on each other. Tajassus, usually harbors ill intentions, and the spy is called a Jasus. As for Tahassus (inquiring) it is usually done for a good reason. Allah the Exalted and Most Honored said that Prophet Yaqub said, ("O my sons! Go you and inquire (Tahassasu) about Yusuf and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah's mercy.'') (12:87) Both of these terms, Tajassus' andTahassus' could have evil connotations. In the Sahih it is recorded that the Messenger of Allah said, "Neither commit Tajassus nor Tahassus nor hate each other nor commit Tadabur. And be brothers, O servants of Allah." Al-Awza`i said, "Tajassus means, to search for something, while Tahassus means, listening to people when they are talking without their permission, or eavesdropping at their doors. Tadabur refers to shunning each other. '' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. Allah the Exalted said about backbiting;

"neither backbite one another", thus prohibiting it, which was explained in a Hadith collected by Abu Dawud that Abu Hurayrah said, "It was asked, O Allah's Messenger! What is backbiting' He said, "Mentioning about your brother in a manner that he dislikes." He was asked,What if my brother was as I mentioned' He said, "If he was as you mentioned, you will have committed backbiting. But if he was not as you say about him, you will have falsely accused him.'' At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith and said "Hasan Sahih.'' Backbiting was sternly warned against, and this is why Allah the Exalted and Most Blessed compared it to eating the flesh of a dead human being,

"Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother You would hate it." Just as you hate eating the flesh of a dead person, on account of your nature; so hate backbiting, on account of your religion. The latter carries a punishment that is worse than the former. This Ayah seeks to discourage people from backbiting and warns against it. The Prophet used these words to discourage taking back a gift that one gives to someone, "He is just like the dog that eats its vomit." after saying, "Ours is not an evil parable." Using various chains of narration, the Sahihs and Musnads record that the Prophet said during the Farewell Hajj:

"Verily, your blood, wealth and honor are as sacred among you as the sanctity of this day of yours, in this month of yours, in this town of yours." Abu Dawud recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

"All of the Muslim is sacred to the Muslim, his wealth, honor and his blood. It is evil enough for someone to belittle his Muslim brother." At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith and said "Hasan Gharib.'' Al-Hafiz Abu Yala recorded that a cousin of Abu Hurayrah said, "Maiz came to the Messenger of Allah and said, O Allah's Messenger! I have committed adultery,' and the Messenger turned away from him until Maiz repeated his statement four times. The fifth time, the Prophet asked him, "Have you committed adultery?" Maiz said, Yes. The Prophet asked, "Do you know what adultery means" Maiz said, Yes. I have illegally done with her what a husband legally does with his wife.' The Prophet said, "What do you seek to accomplish by this statement" Maiz said, I intend that you purify me.' The Prophet asked, "Have you gone into her just as the stick goes into the kohl container and the rope goes into the well" Maiz said, Yes, O Allah's Messenger!' The Prophet commanded that Maiz be stoned to death and his order was carried out.
The Prophet heard two men saying to one another, `Have you not seen the man who had Allah cover his secret, but his heart could not let him rest until he was stoned to death, just as the dog is stoned' The Prophet continued on and when he passed by the corpse of a donkey, he asked,

"Where are so-and-so Dismount and eat from this donkey." They said, May Allah forgive you, O Allah's Messenger! Would anyone eat this meat' The Prophet said; "The backbiting you committed against your brother is worse as a meal than this meal. By He in Whose Hand is my soul! He is now swimming in the rivers of Paradise."'' This Hadith has an authentic chain of narration. Imam Ahmad recorded that Jabir binAbdullah said, "We were with the Messenger of Allah when a rotten odor was carried by the wind. The Messenger of Allah said, "Do you know what this odor is It is the odor of those who backbite people."''

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

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Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Actually my bad, I didn't read all of the answers you posted.
First of all, look at the answer of Muzammil Siddiqui. He said that an Islamic State cannot spy on its citizens but can spy to protect its borders and such. I don't disagree with that. And that's how Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam did things too, he did have spies and those spies were not spying on muslims.
The other post by Atiyyah Saqr, that's with reference to being within a work environment. It's not the same context as what was being discussed originally. And the same goes for the parental stuff.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers


I agree with that.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Can this person help me find Islamic state, please?

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Its a concept and if your job/role requires stating facts about other ppl whether they know you are monitoring them or not, ten you do it, and you do it as accurately as possible.

work environment , or parents..spying is spying.

If you look at the contect in whch spying is proibited its 2 fold

1) personal life, if you got hrough people's stuff and info without their knowledge..as many desis do looking at pay stubs and check books and what nots, that is very disliked, because you are trying to find out personal private info of the person

2) spying a la treason so during war if you provide secrets to enemy that hurts the interests of the islamic state. (one can argue that since there is no islamic state than this does not apply)

however the situation we are looking at is not for ppl to go and spy and tell military secrets of lets say lebanon to israel or iran to israel, but to monitor and to inform authoritis if they see something out of the ordinary.

Now if you think there is a war between Canada and Islam, and that the type of people you are reporting are the guardians of islam or something of that sort then that is a different story, but if you think that you are ready to call cops if you see and hear something suspicious, (kinda like you would do if you saw a bunch of guys just hanging around some neighbourhood) then its helping law enforcement and not some enemy army against the army of some islamic state.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Brother Fraudz, no offense, but it seems you've lack of understanding what Allah says in Quran. I'm sorry if this is harsh. But after reading all the posts which has pretty much same arguments over and over again, i had to say this. I'll quote the ayahs again that brother sherafghan posted:

[quote]
O you who believe, avoid suspicion, for suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy on each other. [49:12]
[/quote]
Please read this carefully again! Allah Subhaanhu Wa Ta'ala in this verse is calling those people who are the true believers, momins, not munafiqeen. Nor those who are muslims with names but disobey and displease Allah Subhaanhu Wa Ta'ala. Allah forbids those to spy on each other, means they're no allowed to spy on their muslims brothers who're like them, momins.

Therefore, in any case, for a momin to do any kind of invstigation, or spying or being suspicious etc. against a person who is a momin is simply haram, as stated in that verse. However, spying against the enemies of Islam, kafirs or munafiqeen isn't haram.

If you really want to find out what the turth is you should clear up your mind from all your own "theories" and read the tafseer of that ayah and ahdith that're related to this topic insteade of arguing with others.

Again, i apologize if you get offended.

I don't think this thread need to posted here, it should have been somewhere else.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Brother Fraudz, no offense, but it seems you've lack of understanding what Allah says in Quran. I'm sorry if this is harsh. But after reading all the posts which has pretty much same arguments over and over again, i had to say this

I have no issue with what is in quran, but issue with how ppl are unable to understand or provide the context of the saying, whereas I provided the context from what I know.

Some seem to think that there is a blanket prohibition on all sorts of monitoring/spying.

*. I'll quote the ayahs again that brother sherafghan posted: *

hopefully with some context.. reading it for the 30th time is not going to all of a sudden show me some hidden meaning..

Therefore, in any case, for a momin to do any kind of invstigation, or spying or being suspicious etc. against a person who is a momin is simply haram, as stated in that verse. However, spying against the enemies of Islam, kafirs or munafiqeen isn't haram.

^These are your words and not Qurans words. I have already posted 2 links above where a person is being allowed to monitor and provide reports on his colleagues, who may be muslim, and a father who wants to spy on his daughter's internet usage, and it appears both are muslim. Those are not my words but words of two scholars and you can go tell them that "it seems you've lack of understanding what Allah says in Quran"

Now if two scholars just said about 2 different circumstances that spying or monitoring is allowed, yet you just categorically declared that "for a momin to do any kind of invstigation, or spying or being suspicious etc. against a person who is a momin is simply haram" does not add up.

*If you really want to find out what the turth is you should clear up your mind from all your own "theories" and read the tafseer of that ayah and ahdith that're related to this topic insteade of arguing with others. *

sure, and I did what i said I would, i went and searched and found out two instances where known scholars have said that spying on or monitoring fellow muslims is okay, and i posted those links above. You are more then welcome to contact the scholars and argue with their theories. Their statements have negated your stance that a muslim just simply can not spy on another muslim.

Again, i apologize if you get offended.

no apologies needed, not offended at all.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Fraudz, now I am just lost as to what you are tying to say.

In Islam, in certain EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES haraam CAN become halaal. For example, let's say I am in the desert and I feel that I am about to die from thirst and I only have alcohol in front of me then I can drink alcohol to the point that the feeling of dying is gone. Just at that moment alcohol becomes halaal. Because of this exceptional case it doesn't mean that alcohol has become halaal, generally. I did point this out in one of my earlier posts.

The fataawa you posted, I don't agree with them because there isn't enough evidence in them but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. These fataawa are pointing out these exceptional cases. If I started saying that alcohol is halaal because of the example above then I would be committing kufr, by going against the Quran. It's obvious that I cannot take something specific and apply it generally.
So, regardless of these exceptional cases muslims spying on muslims is still haraam. And these exceptional cases have to be referred to scholars because we cannot judge on our own where it can become halaal.
There's evidence of this in the Quran and in Sunnah.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

oh so now you dont agree with fatwa.
I proved my case you did not
you made a blanket statement that spying is haram and all that jazz
i showed you that it is allowed
now even if by your own statement if it is only under exceptional cases, someone possibly planning to murder many ppl is err an exceptional case atleast in my view
therefore, if someone is asked to spy on cockroaches among us who are hellbent on hurting innocent ppl. More power to the spy.

Now go argue with the guys who wrote the fatwa, at minimum it suggests that its not all black and white as was being claimed here earlier.

My work is done..

Thank you,

Next..

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

^Good work.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

The issue was not 'unfounded suspicion," rather reasonable information that may lead one to believe that another person was going to commit a crime.

IF a person tells me that he's going to kill a few people tomorrow, I will not sit home hoping that he will have changed his mind when he gets up the next morning. I will inform the authorities so that they can stop the crime. If that person had done nothing to actually execute his plans, i.e., "had not bought tons of fertilizer to make bombs with (wink wink)," he has nothing to worry about.

Very artful of Mullahs to change the topic into 'spying on Muslims' and 'unfounded suspicion." If people are falsely turning people in, Muslims or otherwise, that's wrong, period. We don't need a fatwa to know that it's wrong. Falsely accusing someone of a crime (or a future crime) is wrong everywhere in the world. But when we have reasonable information to believe that someone is about to commit a crime, or is planning on it, it SHOULD be shared with authorities without paying attention to who is a Muslim and who's not. Shame on Mullahs for trying to say that the definition of crime changes depending on whether the suspect is a Muslim or not. Crime has no religion.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Until now, I had always believed that overwhelming majority of Muslims living in Western countries do not have sympathies for terrorists, and the few people we see running around who present justifications and conspiracy theories everytime a Muslim is found involved in a terrorist act, are rare exceptions. Unfortunately, after spending a few months on Gupshup, I have come to realize that it's not true. There is an alarming number of people who are living in denial, and will go at any lengths to believe that people who claim to be Muslims cannot commit any crimes. If that was the case, we wouldn't need a police force in countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. If there are muslim criminals in Muslim countries, then why is it so hard to believe that there can be Muslim criminals in Western countries too.

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

sir dig a lot

actually its not a large number of ppl, even if you look at the GS sample, there are a handful who fit the bill, but they too are really more talk. Kinda reminds me of the whle grunge/alternative movement, many posuers running around.

the vast majority of gupsters dont even bother with such discussions, which says a lot.

5 people in a street corner beatiing drums and screaming at the top of their lungs do not represent the entire neighbourhood that is just trying to mind its own business :)