Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@Fraudz

There simply can not be any excuses to not report someone involved in criminal activities or planning.

you are right, as long as muslims are not spying on muslims

[expatobserver]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Interesting - so if you couldn't convince him, you would pin your hopes on him convincing himself not to do anything, and then on you being awake and watching his front door at the moment he left his house?

What if you were not able to convince him, you kept vigil outside his house all night long to make sure he didn't step out with a gun - but early the next morning his garage door opens up and drives out and away - and from your position you were unable to see whether or not he had the gun in the car?

If they never asked him if he was an informer, would he have an obligation to warn them beforehand that he would report any planned illegal activity to the authorities?

MS, Crescent has already given the answer by evading every one of your questions. Crescent is a weasel. He is telling us between the lines that he in fact will support muslim terrorist.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

you are right, as long as muslims are not spying on muslims

errr..dont muslim spy on muslims anyways. I know for a fact that muslim police in pak spy against muslim suspects, but thats the only way to get proof against drug dealers and black marketers and all to get them out of circulation

there are hadith regarding it being important to stop injustice too, and if stopping injustice means collecting proof against suspects, then thats what one needs to do.

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@Fraudz

errr..dont muslim spy on muslims anyways. I know for a fact that muslim police in pak spy against muslim suspects, but thats the only way to get proof against drug dealers and black marketers and all to get them out of circulation

there are hadith regarding it being important to stop injustice too, and if stopping injustice means collecting proof against suspects, then thats what one needs to do.

Read my second post again. Just because some muslim out there does it then it doesn't mean that Islam allows it. There were muslims who used to drink, who used to commit adultery, etc. at the time of the Prophet but that doesn't mean that it is allowed in Islam.
Also, like I said earlier, Islam has to be implemented in its entirety and not haphazardly. It is implemented haphazardly in all muslim countries.

The other thing in Islam is that one can commit sins in secret, but as soon as sins come into the public eye then punishment must be handed out. The reason is obvious.
There were times when people would come to Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam and confess their sins and he would tell them to go back ie, no punishment. But when you do sins publicly, then punishment must be given out in public to show everyone that this will not be tolerated.
So, in your example if the drug dealers are doing their business secretly then fine. But as soon as they set up shop in the open, then they must be reprimanded.

If you can give me an authentic example from the Sunnah, where the muslims spied on other muslims then I'd like to see it.

Otherwise if you think it is okay for muslims to spy on muslims then you are clearly going against the Quran, and this is kufr.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

^ in light of the guidance that it is imperative on muslims to stop injustice. If you know someone is planning a crime, or suspect someone is planning a crime, would you not try to figure out if it is true.

where does this do not spy sayign end, and what is the explanation of it. I bet you a hundred dollars that if you were in a 100% muslim country and late at night you saw someone walkign through your backyard, or hanging by the trees for no reason, you will keep him under watch (read: spy on him) to figure out whether he is upto no good or if he is the neighbour's kids visiting friend just outside for fresh air.

your example of a drug dealer is ridicuolous, no one commits crime in the open, but hidden crime has its victims to, one needs to stop it. what about someone who commits sin in private by being involved in buggery? is he free to do as he pleases and no one who suspects him should try to find out because it is not being done in the open.

We are opnely commaned to stop injustice, and if you are ignoring it and letting some injustice continue then you are going against the teachings as well. I would rather stop the injustice and take my chances with the spying verdict (which i believe is completely used out of context in this thread) because that would make sure that innocent ppl are safe from the actions of some crook, whatever the type of crime may be.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

So, in your example if the drug dealers are doing their business secretly then fine. But as soon as they set up shop in the open, then they must be reprimanded.

Otherwise if you think it is okay for muslims to spy on muslims then you are clearly going against the Quran, and this is kufr.

the first statement has to be the most ridiculous item of that day. oh yeah we have crime and we know it happpens, but since it is hidden, its a-ok with us..

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Mr. Fraudiay, you are obviously getting very emotional.
There is no point in discussing if you are angry. I suggest that you calm down and then reply.

the only thing i said was muslims spying on muslims is haraam, and i showed ayaat from the Quraan and hadeeth
and if i do some research, i know that inshaAllah i will be able to give you more solid evidence
you are using your emotions to judge what is right and wrong, and as a muslim we refer to Allah and His Messenger to find out what is right and wrong

look at the examples of the khulafah e rashida, and you will see that since they implemented Islam in its entirety there was no need to spy on the community
for example Afghanistan is the largest producer of heroine and opium in the world, when the Taliban enforced the Islamic laws with regards to drugs the numbers of heroine and opium went down around the world
and then in 2002, these numbers skyrocketed

by sinning in public, it is meant that the people know that the sin is being committed
you don't need a billboard or an advertisement on TV to make it officially public
if you want to do something illegal, then practically every major city has certain areas where one could go and everybody knows about these places, even the police that's why they patrol those areas more often
for example, during the prohibition times in the US everybody knew Al Capone was behind everything but they had such a tough time catching him
i wonder if they used spies to catch Capone?

again, i can give you more examples from the Sunnah about the sinning in public part if you want me to

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

So when you talk of Islam being implemented in its entirety, do you mean that every single person in society is following Islam fully?

For centuries there has been much corruption in Muslim societies that was not there at the time of the Khulafa-i-Rashida. One can take the case of the hundreds if not thousands of Muslim prostitutes in Pakistan (in places such as Lahore's Heera Mandi). Prostituion by Muslim women did not exist on this scale back then.

Are you saying its fine for these women to ply their trade and for Muslim men to buy it as long as it done behind closed doors, in private, away from public eyes?

Or should an Islamic government, should it take power in Pakistan, use the assets of the state to spy upon the women in Heera Mandi and other such states to find proof of their criminal acts and stamp out this trade?

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

Mr. Fraudiay, you are obviously getting very emotional.
There is no point in discussing if you are angry. I suggest that you calm down and then reply.

Not at all, I am niether amotional, nor angry. I am stating a fact that what you have written is the most ridiculous statement I have read today.

As we all know statements have context and without proper context one may or may not understand what is being said.

i can understad if the spying is the bi jamalo type stuff that happens in families where ppl sly on ppl and gossip..bad bad

i can udnerstand if during a war a soldier is spying on his army and providing reports to the enemy

I can not understand why keeping an eye open for unusual statements and actions by people is somehow aharam by your point of view.

again lets go back to my example, if u were in a 100% muslim country and saw somethin suspicious taking place in your backyard would you not kee an eye on it to figure out what was going on, or call the cops?

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

So when you talk of Islam being implemented in its entirety, do you mean that every single person in society is following Islam fully?

The people do not have to be following Islam, but the Islamic Laws have to be implemented and enforced in their entirety. If this is not done ie, all muslim countries, then you will get a flawed system.

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

For centuries there has been much corruption in Muslim societies that was not there at the time of the Khulafa-i-Rashida. One can take the case of the hundreds if not thousands of Muslim prostitutes in Pakistan (in places such as Lahore's Heera Mandi). Prostituion by Muslim women did not exist on this scale back then. Are you saying its fine for these women to ply their trade and for Muslim men to buy it as long as it done behind closed doors, in private, away from public eyes?

the fact that someone living in Canada knows where to find a brothel in Pakistan means that this is not private
if this operation is public then you don't need spies,
if the pakistani police start cracking down on these areas, then i am pretty sure they will all go underground and you won't hear of heera mandi anymore

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Or should an Islamic government, should it take power in Pakistan, use the assets of the state to spy upon the women in Heera Mandi and other such states to find proof of their criminal acts and stamp out this trade?

i think this has already been answered

[teaser]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

So the question arises: If you knew a Muslim was planning a criminal act such as murder, or a terrorist act of of misguidance, and you could not talk them out of it, would you keep quiet or would you alert the authorities.

If you alerted the authorities and they offered you a cash reward, would you accept it?

And if they offered to keep on paying you each month to continue to keep your eyes open for anything similar happening in future, would you accept that?

I will report to authorities and if I am offered money or something else in return I would not take it and also I would not accept it on monthly basis or anything like that.

wrong is always wrong either done by Muslim or anyone else.

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@Fraudz

I can not understand why keeping an eye open for unusual statements and actions by people is somehow aharam by your point of view.

The point of view of Allah as stated in the Quran and from the actions of the Messenger, is clear that muslims spying on muslims is haraam. If you say that Islam allows this, then I would like to see proof.

@Fraudz

again lets go back to my example, if u were in a 100% muslim country and saw somethin suspicious taking place in your backyard would you not kee an eye on it to figure out what was going on, or call the cops?

if i was in a country where islamic laws are implemented and enforced in their entirety then no, i wouldn't feel insecure
i'd probably leave my front door unlocked too
there are responsibilities of an Islamic State to the citizens and the blood, wealth, and honor of every citizen is to be protected by the state

[Crescent]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@expatobserver

MS, Crescent has already given the answer by evading every one of your questions. Crescent is a weasel. He is telling us between the lines that he in fact will support muslim terrorist.

Yeah ofcourse why not.

And how do you plan on answering to God when you send an innocent brother to jail?

I already told him if i was convinced that he was going to harm others, I would take proper action.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

The point of view of Allah as stated in the Quran and from the actions of the Messenger, is clear that muslims spying on muslims is haraam. If you say that Islam allows this, then I would like to see proof.

if i was in a country where islamic laws are implemented and enforced in their entirety then no, i wouldn’t feel insecure
i’d probably leave my front door unlocked too
there are responsibilities of an Islamic State to the citizens and the blood, wealth, and honor of every citizen is to be protected by the state

nice dodge, but a utopia does not exist and we are talking of a muslim country not an islamic state. big diff. for all the big talk..if u saw someone lurking in yer backyard you would be dialing 911 faster than anything

[system]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@Fraudz

nice dodge, but a utopia does not exist and we are talking of a muslim country not an islamic state. big diff. for all the big talk..if u saw someone lurking in yer backyard you would be dialing 911 faster than anything

The point of this thread was spying and I made it clear that muslims spying on other muslims is haraam.
On top of that, I am not going to justify my actions even if they are haraam. If I do anything haraam, then I will acknowledge that I did something haraam. Generally speaking, trying to justify doing something haraam is kufr.

So, if you want more proof then I can post it here. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

[aahmed]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

I think any government has the right to protect its citizens even if it involves infiltration into religious organizations. Hey, if you don't have anything to hide you won't have a problem with this. Why are they specifically targetting mosques? Because 9/11 was committed by people claiming to be Muslims. Because there are nutjobs out there like Osama who claim to be Muslims, it would make sense to look for your target demographic where they would be. I'm sure when the FBI was trying to put away organized crime they weren't sending agents into Mosques but into italian neighborhoods. It just makes sense.

And I would report anyone at the drop of a hat if they started talking about blowing stuff up. This is a dangerous place to live in, I don't want to take any chances.

So yeah, it's good that they're infiltrating, I wouldn't mind being a paid informer.

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Good is Good and bad is bad. it has no religion, race or color. its as simple as black and white. do not create gray areas inbetween.
I would sure let the authorities know, simply because the consequences are very high i.e. what if I am unable to stop the person from doing something bad and killing innocent people. next can I live with this kind of burden on my own conscience that I had a chance to stop this incident but I decided to look other way.

[CheGuvera]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

Speaking of mosque, informers and US/Canadian intelligence agencies lying through the teeth...these poor ice cream truck drivers in Lodi, California are on the verge of being sentenced to jail for probably the good part of his remaining life, just cause some paid muslim informer (probably a moderate muslim who could stand the criticism of he american masters) made up stories about them and went to FBI with lies...now the FBI agents living in a crackpot reality are telling blatant, speculative and uncorroborated lies, which the hick-ville jury of Lodi would take as gospel truth to sentence these poor folks for the rest of their lives...

So, who ever lives in Balakot are has been there in the last few years, be careful, US authorities might pick you up and put you away...

Terror camp in Balakot’, US agency tells court

By Our Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Aug 1: A US intelligence agency expert told a US court this week that Pakistan is still running a ‘terrorist training camp’ in Balakot. Eric Benn, a terrorism expert for Defence Intelligence Agency, told the district court in California that there was 70 per cent ‘probability’ the satellite images of a place near Balakot were that of a militant training camp.

(In Islamabad, the director-general of the Inter-Services Public Relations, Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan, said the report was absurd.

“If US intelligence agencies had detected any such thing in Balakot, they should have passed on the information to us through official channels. The area of Balakot was extensively seen by all international agencies, including NATO and the US, during the earthquake relief operation in 2005. No such training camp was spotted by them. We reject this malicious report which is aimed at undermining Pakistan’s efforts in the fight against terrorism.”)

The US intelligence agent showed the jury satellite images taken between 2001 and 2004 but he claimed that the facility in question seemed to have expand since then. “It may have become less temporary and more permanent,” he testified.

The images showed a 3km trail linked to the main road and dotted with several structures that seemed to reflect a guard house, barracks with a tin roof and perhaps some mud houses as well, the reports said.

The court is hearing terrorism charges against two Pakistani-Americans, 23-year old Hamid Hayat and his father Umer Hayat. Hamid’s sentencing has been postponed by four months to November and his father Umer Hayat, charged with lying to federal authorities, is being retried after the first round ended in a hung jury.

Agent Benn told the court that he did not “detect any formal weapons training”.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

The point of this thread was spying and I made it clear that muslims spying on other muslims is haraam.
On top of that, I am not going to justify my actions even if they are haraam. If I do anything haraam, then I will acknowledge that I did something haraam. Generally speaking,
So, if you want more proof then I can post it here. Otherwise, there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

Sure, prove it, Not just by your own explanations of some verses, but what scholars have said about it.

is there a diff between spying and investigation? hmmmmmmmm

bring some proof, your own words are simply not enough.

and you are right, if that is all you have then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

P.S.: the other side of the coin.. trying to negate doing something halaal is also kufr.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Canadian Mosques and Intelligence Agency informers

@sherafghan

The point of this thread was spying and I made it clear that muslims spying on other muslims is haraam.
On top of that, I am not going to justify my actions even if they are haraam. If I do anything haraam, then I will acknowledge that I did something haraam. Generally speaking, trying to justify doing something haraam is kufr.

So, if you want more proof then I can post it here. Otherwise, there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

1. okay so if someone is not actively spying, but suspects something shoukd he report the ppl to the cops?

2. if someone has no intention to spy but finds out thru chance that someone is planning to do something criminal, should he call the cops?

My view is heck yeah..