Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

[Zafra]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

Such intellectual discourse. I love how this is a Life 1 thread now.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Sady

I dont understand what is wrong with people wanting to marry in the same family which has the same customs and traditions. For example, we met only one family which wanted to marry strictly in the same caste. I have forgotten what caste they were and that is not important, anyway. We graciously refused because if I recall correctly, they mentioned some of their family traditions with which we would have not been okay. So, I think, that is one valid reason to marry your own caste. Maybe there are more valid reasons about which I dont know as did not meet many such families. It is bad only when people go over board for silly reasons in marrying their castes. I dont think castes in Pakistan have any importance outside of marriage preference/requirements unlike hindu religion which is based on superior, moderate, low, lowest castes. Muslims are amongst the untouchables. So that is completely different and should be eradicated. Similarly, people religiously following caste system out of pride and going overboard with it is wrong too.

Since you brought up Hindu religion, are we ready to have a discussion on pros and cons of each religion?

HHindu religion does not preach stone the gays and the adulterer. Would you agree that such laws should be eradicated. And that gays and adulterers should be allowed to live their lifestyle freely? Does Islam and the Holy book need reform?

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

There was one or two posts that mentioned caste essentially was a proxy for a person’s profession. Yes. That is true. That is exactly what it was.

The reality is that not too many folks in this thread will line up to marry those with Chamar or mochi as profession (or caste).

[kakaballi]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Southie

Since you brought up Hindu religion, are we ready to have a discussion on pros and cons of each religion?

He brought up Hindu religion in the context of this thread. Shall we keep it as such?

Do you disagree that the caste system has much stronger roots and influence on societal interactions in among people following Hindu religion?

[Zafra]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Sehrysh

What the OP fails to understand is that the people in this thread will not assist her in perpetuating the ignorant idea of caste-based rankings. To even respond here with historical social constructs about how castes were/are ranked, would be an affirmation and also perpetuate such closed-minded ignorance.

That people have taken the high ground and refused to respond speaks well of them and their attempt to distance themselves from ignorant social practices.

So that is what you think of Indian and Hindu culture eh? They are “ignorant social practices”?

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

.

[kakaballi]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Southie

Well this thread is about the caste system. And not about the Hindu religion. I said my piece because the post specifically brought up religion…

… and therefore you would like to discuss all aspects of religion?

@Southie

And if someone - who happens to be very religious - matter of factly says something negative about Hindu religion, I felt challenging that was appropriate. …

@Southie

Of course as moderator I will defer to your judgment and abide by it. But as a poster, if you want to discuss firther, happy to do it. And retract if appropriate. …

Here’s my take on it (if you disagree, I don’t really care):

Hinduism is not a very well structured, organized religion (you can’t even tell if it is monotheist or polytheist). The beliefs and practices vary from region to region and from tribe to tribe and people to people (evident from thousands (if not millions) of deities). Whether a belief is a part of religion or not, you cannot be certain when it comes to Hinduism.

However, a strict caste system has been practiced by a majority of Hindus for thousands of years. It has become a part of life over this period if it was not part of any organized religion in the first place. If you want to challenge, you are most welcome to challenge thousands upon thousands of books and hundreds of thousands of pages on internet that talk about caste system in Hindu society.

What the poster said was the such a caste system is much more ingrained in Hindu society in India and the boundaries are not as strictly followed in Pakistani society. This is a factual statement and a cursory research will easily establish it. I am not retracting it and neither debating it any further.

Thank you.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@kakaballi

… and therefore you would like to discuss all aspects of religion?

Here’s my take on it (if you disagree, I don’t really care):

Hinduism is not a very well structured, organized religion (you can’t even tell if it is monotheist or polytheist). The beliefs and practices vary from region to region and from tribe to tribe and people to people (evident from thousands (if not millions) of deities). Whether a belief is a part of religion or not, you cannot be certain when it comes to Hinduism.

However, a strict caste system has been practiced by a majority of Hindus for thousands of years. It has become a part of life over this period if it was not part of any organized religion in the first place. If you want to challenge, you are most welcome to challenge thousands upon thousands of books and hundreds of thousands of pages on internet that talk about caste system in Hindu society.

What the poster said was the such a caste system is much more ingrained in Hindu society in India and the boundaries are not as strictly followed in Pakistani society. This is a factual statement and a cursory research will easily establish it. I am not retracting it and neither debating it any further.

Thank you.

I stopped reading at “if you disagree I don’t really care.”

Cheers.

[Sady]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

I did not bring up hindu religion. I had a quick glance on all the posts of this thread. I saw someone alleging that cultural practice of some Pakistani people’s preference (Some Pakistanis, not all) of marrying into the same clan/tribe/khaandaan/ethnicity as their own (Mind you this practice is very common among the people of the entire world as everyone is naturally attracted to someone of their own clan/city/country/race/ethnicity) is the same as the superior, lower, subhuman caste system advocated by hinduism as a ‘religious’ ruling which must be applicable in all walks of life. So in my post I made things clear to those who were associating these two fundamentally different practices of ‘castes’ of Pakistani culture and the religion of hindu. If you want me to pin point those post(s) which prompted me to clarify that misunderstanding, I can do that. I would like to repeat that caste system followed by some Pakistanis is not religiously advocated (by Islam) to classify humans into super humans, superior, lower, untouchable categories as is the base of hinduism. Inversely, such kind of human ranking is highly DISAPPROVED in Islam. And the caste system followed in pakistan is what is followed by the people around the world (Preference to marry their own clan). What is wrong in that practice is when some people start to consider their own caste superior than the rest which is wrong because there may be differences in traditions/customs of different clans but none is superior than the other. On the other hand, the basic teachings of the hindu religion start from ranking the humans in highest/higher/lower/lowest categories. So, whoever above claimed these two practices are the same, they are VERY WRONG.

With regards to your question if ‘Islam’ or ‘Quran’ needs reform. You can have a look at ISIS what they have made of this beautiful religion by introducing their ‘reforms’. So no, there are very clear teachings in Quran. Very simple and very clear. But those think Islam needs reform are too thick headed to grasp the very simple teachings. They own minds complicate them and create confusion for themselves and others. Only thing we require to understand islamic teachings is common sense, that’s all. No reforms required.

@Southie

Since you brought up Hindu religion, are we ready to have a discussion on pros and cons of each religion?

HHindu religion does not preach stone the gays and the adulterer. Would you agree that such laws should be eradicated. And that gays and adulterers should be allowed to live their lifestyle freely? Does Islam and the Holy book need reform?

[Balthier]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

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[Sady]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Southie

I opened this thread in the morning but had to go away. Just came back to read and reply but upon quoting, you had already edited your post. Anyway, in your post, you had claimed that hindu religion’s caste system is same as Pakistani cultural. How can it be the same?? The religion of Islam does not impose any rules, guidlines or restrictions upon marrying someone of your own caste. Infact, quite the opposite. In Islam, the first trait to look for in a prospective match is how much “God fearing” he/she is. Conversely, the indian caste system of ranking humans is advocated as the basics of the hindu religion. Those superior/low human ranking must be accepted by every hindu to be classified as a hindu as every human as per hindu religion has a ‘rank’ given by divine power and which he/she cannot challenge and a hindu must accept that rank as his worth in this world (low or high). Furthermore, those human ranks are judged in all walks of life. So, it is not the same as wanting to marry or being attracted to the same clan/caste as yours culturally and naturally (in Pakistan or anywhere else in the world) and is not caused by any Islamic ruling over the matter.

Secondly, again you have too many negative assumptions about me and other muslims. You said, my post portrayed hinduism in a negative light. My dear, what I have stated in my first post is nothing but facts. If I state facts about something, you automatically, assume that it is said due to bad intent. That is only your paranoia. What I said in my first post in this thread was only to set the record straight for those who claimed caste system of human ranking advocated by hindu religion and the caste system followed by Pakistanis for cultural reasons are the same. That idea is VERY WRONG. The two main differences being:

1. Hindu caste system is religiously motivated, the basis of hindu religion and one who denies hindu religion’s human ranking system cannot be classified as a hindu because that is like challenging the basic teachings of hindu religion. Whereas Pakistani caste system is culturally motivated and if someone opts not to follow it or reject it, no one can hold him/her responsible for not adhering to Islamic teachings because Islam DISCOURAGES any kind of human ranking system.

2. Hindu religion’s caste system works in all walks of life. The lowers castes are discriminated against due to the rank given to them by their religion for being born into any caste. On the contrary, Pakistani cultural caste is only asked only for marriage purposes due to traditions/customs which may vary in various castes and the new person in a new family may feel alien not being aware of the tradition of that specific caste.

So your idea that these two systems have anything in common is HIGHLY FLAWED.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Sady

I did not bring up hindu religion. I had a quick glance on all the posts of this thread. I saw someone alleging that cultural practice of some Pakistani people’s preference (Some Pakistanis, not all) of marrying into the same clan/tribe/khaandaan/ethnicity as their own (Mind you this practice is very common among the people of the entire world as everyone is naturally attracted to someone of their own clan/city/country/race/ethnicity) is the same as the superior, lower, subhuman caste system advocated by hinduism as a ‘religious’ ruling which must be applicable in all walks of life. So in my post I made things clear to those who were associating these two fundamentally different practices of ‘castes’ of Pakistani culture and the religion of hindu. If you want me to pin point those post(s) which prompted me to clarify that misunderstanding, I can do that. I would like to repeat that caste system followed by some Pakistanis is not religiously advocated (by Islam) to classify humans into super humans, superior, lower, untouchable categories as is the base of hinduism. Inversely, such kind of human ranking is highly DISAPPROVED in Islam. And the caste system followed in pakistan is what is followed by the people around the world (Preference to marry their own clan). What is wrong in that practice is when some people start to consider their own caste superior than the rest which is wrong because there may be differences in traditions/customs of different clans but none is superior than the other. On the other hand, the basic teachings of the hindu religion start from ranking the humans in highest/higher/lower/lowest categories. So, whoever above claimed these two practices are the same, they are VERY WRONG.

With regards to your question if ‘Islam’ or ‘Quran’ needs reform. You can have a look at ISIS what they have made of this beautiful religion by introducing their ‘reforms’. So no, there are very clear teachings in Quran. Very simple and very clear. But those think Islam needs reform are too thick headed to grasp the very simple teachings. They own minds complicate them and create confusion for themselves and others. Only thing we require to understand islamic teachings is common sense, that’s all. No reforms required.

You chose some explicit terms to describe Hinduism here.

" classify humans into super humans, superior, lower, untouchable categories as is the base of hinduism"

I think you meant basis.

No. This is not the basis for Hinduism. It is followed by Hindus.

In this post, you also state Islam does not need reform. I believe rules that “form the basis of Islam”(to use your own words to describe Hinduism) call for stoning of gays and adulterers do need to be reformed. That you deem reform unnecessary speaks to the dire need of reform in terms of what is being taught to the followers, IMHO.

I prefer not to discuss religions any more. It is my hope you will leave Hinduism out of this. Just because this thread is about caste doesn’t give someone a free pass to go after a religion. Especially when that someone is very sensitive to any criticism of their rel8gion.

I will concede one thing to you - Hinduism the way it is practiced DOES need to be reformed. And it is my humble opinion Islam the way you practise - I have read ur opinion on gays before - needs reform.

Will you concede the above? I didn’t thinks so.

You can have the last word. And won’t respond to any other posts in this thread. I don’t see a good ending down this path.

Am out.

[Sady]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Southie

You chose some explicit terms to describe Hinduism here.

" classify humans into super humans, superior, lower, untouchable categories as is the base of hinduism"

Tell me are brahmin pundits not considered super humans? If that term is ‘explicit’ in your opinion, tell me a better term… ‘honorable’? Is that better? And are muslims not considered untouchables? What term can be used to replace that word?

@Southie

I think you meant basis.

No. This is not the basis for Hinduism. It is followed by Hindus.

Im sorry but are hindus not taught to consider themselves belonging to a specific caste the 5 major being?:

1. brahmin (scholars category)
2. Khashtari (military)
3. … (forgetting the third one who are supposed to be traders)
4. shudar (laborers)
5. muslims/other religious minorities (cleaners/other lower jobs)

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/india-caste-system-23683133.jpg

Correct me if my info is wrong.

@Southie

In this post, you also state Islam does not need reform. I believe rules that “form the basis of Islam”(to use your own words to describe Hinduism) call for stoning of gays and adulterers do need to be reformed. That you deem reform unnecessary speaks to the dire need of reform in terms of what is being taught to the followers, IMHO.

The ‘stone to death’ ruling about gays/adulterers come from the Jewish scripture. Islamic ruling is ‘lashes’ of some numbers different for gays/married/single adulterers and at different timings so that the accused would not die out of pain. Meaning the punishment is just lashes, not death. The death by ‘stoning’ part is from Jewish scripture if Im not mistaken. But some people like to believe that ruling is Islamic.

I think, Islamic ‘lashing’ of adulterers is only to curb the ‘fitna’. If there was not a punishment as painful as that (still not as grave as the jewish ruling of stoning to death), no one would really care and the fitna would spread much faster. But again, that islamic ruling is applicable ONLY if FOUR witnesses are produced in an islamic court of law who saw the adulterers committing adultery like they were looking at the hole of a needle. So, it is not like every other person who is accused of adultery will be given the punishment if there were no 4 witness who claim of having witnessed them doing the act as closely and clearly as the hole of a needle. That should give you a fair idea about how lenient islamic ruling is for adulterers. To me, it is quite lenient. We dont have so many people being punished with lashes simply because it cannot be proved in the law of islamic court without 4 such witnesses and hence no verdict can be given.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

Didn’t read above.

This thread is about caste. Probably should not have brought Islam into the discussion.

Yes. Casteism is against everything decent. And a vast majority practices it in Hindu India. Hinduism does need reform. It will take time. And one day - centuries layer- maybe it will go away.

It is deeply ingrained in Hindu India. Deeply.

[Thornewood9]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

The different castes are not ranked. At least the Pakistani one isn’t. There’s Gujjar, Arai, Mirpuri, Jatt, Rajput, Khattik, And loads more. They’re basically just an indication of what your ancestors did or who they were. For instance I’m Arai. Punjabi speaking. The only reason its brought up during marriage proposals is because each caste speaks differently, eats differently, has a different mentality on how a family should function. I don’t think it’ll matter much ten fifteen years down the line cause the younger generation isn’t interested in their culture or roots. There’s nothing wrong with asking about a family’s caste. Its a measure of compatibility that’s all. It’s not racist or anything like that. And of course every caste thinks it’s the best lol. Just pride in your family roots that’s all.

[Jolie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

^ Exactly. It’s usually the non Punjabi folks who like to throw tantrums, overreact, act so disgusted and go in a high horse preaching mode whenever the word caste is mentioned. The fault really lies with with them for confusing Pakistan clan system with Hindu caste system.

In Pakistani Punjab, knowing your caste is an excellent way of doing bit of research on family history. It really helps you track your roots, find out more about ancestors; how they lived, where they lived, how they made their living, where they originated from, and just in general find out the origins of some of the familial traditions and attitudes. During the rishta process, the issue of clan props up because it helps identify the possible difference in customs, traditions and even lifestyles between two families. Rajputs for one certainly have a way of doing things.

Of course, don’t ‘rank’ people in any particular order or show discriminatory attitude towards others. But the mere idea of just talking about your clan shouldn’t be seen as a taboo. It may mean nothing to you, but it’s some people’s family history and part of their identity. Show some respect to cultural sensitivities instead of blindly demonising everything that doesn’t even apply to you.

[Thornewood9]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Southie

Didn’t read above.

This thread is about caste. Probably should not have brought Islam into the discussion.

Yes. Casteism is against everything decent. And a vast majority practices it in Hindu India. Hinduism does need reform. It will take time. And one day - centuries layer- maybe it will go away.

It is deeply ingrained in Hindu India. Deeply.

Sady was just answering your comments on Islam. Probably should read the post.

[Thornewood9]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Jolie

^ Exactly. It’s usually the non Punjabi folks who like throw tantrums, overreact, act so disgusted and go in a high horse preaching mode whenever the word caste is mentioned. The fault really lies with with them for confusing Pakistan clan system with Hindu caste system.

In Pakistani Punjab, knowing your caste is an excellent way of doing bit of research on family history. It really helps you track your roots, find out more about ancestors; how they lived, where they lived, how they made their living, where they originated from, and just generally find out the origins of some familial traditions and attitudes. During the rishta process, the issue of clan props up because it helps identify the possible difference in customs and traditions and even lifestyles. Rajputs for one certainly have a way of doing things.

Yeah and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking about it during proposals. For instance one of my friends is a Gujjar but she met her husband at uni and he is Khattik. At first both families were against it but eventually they caved and got them married. Problems started after marriage when she had to live with her in laws. Everything was so different to what she was used to. The food, the language, the mentality. It got to a point where it was affecting their marriage and to save their marriage they had to move out. Just one example of why when looking for a spouse compatibility is so important. Love can’t solve everything.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Thornewood9

Yeah and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking about it during proposals. For instance one of my friends is a Gujjar but she met her husband at uni and he is Khattik. At first both families were against it but eventually they caved and got them married. Problems started after marriage when she had to live with her in laws. Everything was so different to what she was used to. The food, the language, the mentality. It got to a point where it was affecting their marriage and to save their marriage they had to move out. Just one example of why when looking for a spouse compatibility is so important. Love can’t solve everything.

Caste and clan are different. You can be of same caste but different clan.

Caste system is same - be it in India or Pakistan. When people say in Pakistan they follow caste to see what profession family is in, all it means is that is what the family’s caste was. Different castes did different tasks.

Brahman taught. Kshatritas fought. Vaishyas traded. Shudras did menial or manual labor.

[Southie]

Re: Can you rank the castes from highest to lowest

@Thornewood9

Sady was just answering your comments on Islam. Probably should read the post.

Religious discussions are healthy if one discusses positives of religions without criticizing another. Or if one discusses positives and negatives of religion. The moment one religion is criticized while maintaining the other is perfect, the discussions take a Southie turn.