Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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The technical jargon is beyond my knowledge, but what I do know is that Pakistan does not have the capability to reverse engineer
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If you dont know whats your talking about how can you express such an oppinion?
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Instead of wasting resources on reverse engineering, we should develop our own missiles.
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The whole idea of RE is to save time and money... go figure
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Lahore_Ka_Cheetah, outside resemblance is not always a good indicator to what lies inside. For a cruise missile, what really matters is the electronics and engine and not necessarily aerodynamic shape. It is anyone's guess about how capable Babar really is.
I am going by past history, where we have never indigenously designed any major weapon system. The closest is our nulcear program, but we had a lot of outside help there as well. We do not have any industry that can make turbofan engines or advanced electronics, so logically we got some external help from China or elsewhere. About the UAV, how much of that technology is made and designed in Pakistan? I mean the engines and electronics? If there is a company in Pakistan that is mass producing such components, they are indeed a well guarded secret!
I don't need technical knowledge to figure this out. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with our approach.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Because of evidence on the ground. We have no high technology companies to speak of. Do you agree? You need private companies and a large support base of experienced people for all the things you are talking about.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
what evidence?
why do you need private comapnies? did the US outsource it's atomic bomb to Intel?
Are you suggesting Pakistan doesn not possess highly skilled workers i.e. pakis are thick?
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
But again, When Pakistan buys weapons from USA, it abides by strict rules that it will not reverse engineer the equipement
and if does, it risks sanctions
You are going back to the same argument that I replied to, atleast twice already.
There is no way USA can know what Pakistan has reverse-engineered and what Pakistan hasn't. The only way is by spying which is illegal ofcouse. And, besides, like I've said before, the sensitive information & specs about weapons is kept classified by the government (of Pakistan).
Name me one country which was sanctioned in the past for reverse-engineering.
Read through my lasts posts. I said, nobody reverse-engineers to make an exact copy of a product. It is done for R&D purposes, and to apply it in one's own indigenous projects.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
All of the technology is made in Pakistan, including the mini turbo-jet engines, and mini turbo-fans engines. All of the electronics are made in Pakistan (for the UAV's).
Did you even bother to read through the website I gave you?
Babur was developed by Suparco which is a Pakistani company. Border Eagle (Beagle) was developed by Integrated Dynamics, which is a Pakistani company.
There are many more. I will list them later.
I don't need technical knowledge to figure this out. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with our approach.
Actually you do need technical knowledge to figure this out. No wonder why you are having so much trouble understanding.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
You say you don't know the technical jargon of such things, and here you are telling me what really matters?
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Why not? are you suggesting if you know the architecture of the processor which can be public or reverse enginers, have the instructions in binary (taken from CPU before executed [unecrypted]) you could not work out how the darn thing works?
I have stated earlier already that tomahawk chips are assembled in classified programming languages and if there are any microcontrollers/microprocessors on it, then their details shall only be inside an AES encrypted supercomputer memory deep inside the Pentagon's building, and not available publicly like in engg. textbooks.
That XBox was hacked because the person had prior knowledge about its basic architecture.
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I'm sure somewhere in your life you came across a Z80 unknowingly, a very old and successful CPU. Binary compatible with the intel 8080.
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Zilog-80 was infact an Intel clone, but only its name was different. Since the intel literature was made public, the East Germans and Soviets also cloned the Z-80. There is no big deal in that. (The soviet clone was named KR1858VM1).
Today's supercomputers can simulate and find patterns in chips, but chips have hundreds of millions of transistors and there can be billions of combinations. Even the most powerful supercomputers cannot break AES or even triple DES easily, so how can one expect them to find out about the functionality of chips ? Every human-being will have to sit analysing a particular pattern given an unknown chip.
Chipworks also analyses known variants of chips whose basic info they already have like standard Intel or IEEE chips. They dont analyse just any chip given to them.
This is what their website says :
Chipworks reverse engineers and analyzes semiconductor and microelectronic systems for two distinct and complementary groups. Patent Intelligence customers are law firms and Intellectual Property groups who need Chipworks' support to defend or enhance their licensing positions. Technical Intelligence customers are engineering and product development groups who use Chipworks experience and expertise to help them understand competitive technology, benchmark their innovations and speed their time-to-market.
See China has the most FABulous FABs in the world (pun intended :):)), yet that country buys missile technology from Ukraine, Russia and Israel, especially cruise missiles. Why ? Is it because they dont have Aim-120 or Tomahawk to reverse-engineer ? NO. All that is far time-consuming than inhouse design.
The actual reason is because they just dont have the required technology for minituarisation, (to make ever small and accurate sensors) to the technical expertise of making such missiles, to their intricacies like deviating from wind to prevent a sensor from frontal damage to make the right alloys/materials to integrating all these together etc. etc. etc.
China simply did not RE the Russian S-300. They had to ask for Transfer of technology from them for a heavy fee.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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Zilog-80 was infact an Intel clone
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No it was not. It was binary comptaible i.e. intel code would run on the Z80. It was not a clone. It's like saying AMD clone intel processors.
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I have stated earlier already that tomahawk chips are assembled in classified programming languages and if there are any microcontrollers/microprocessors on it, then their details shall only be inside an AES encrypted supercomputer memory deep inside the Pentagon's building, and not available publicly like in engg. textbooks.
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WHat I have metnioned MANY times is regardless of the encryption the instructions run on the CPU (IR) will need to be unencrypted. Encryption can stop you making sense of data in storage and/or across a bus but it MUST BE IN BINARY to be executed. By interfacing with the addressing you can unload a whole address unblock unencrypted. I have used this method myself on a stb by interfacing with a JTAG.
As for the architecture of processor it's not a problem, just takes longer more steps.
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Today's supercomputers can simulate and find patterns in chips, but chips have hundreds of millions of transistors and there can be billions of combinations. Even the most powerful supercomputers cannot break AES or even triple DES easily, so how can one expect them to find out about the functionality of chips ? Every human-being will have to sit analysing a particular pattern given an unknown chip.
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Why would you want a super computer to find patterns? It's not like you will be cracking ciphers. Why would you need a super computer to "find out about the functionality of chips". Humans will be analysing imaging to build up a schematic of the chip.
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Chipworks reverse engineers and analyzes semiconductor and microelectronic systems for two distinct and complementary groups.
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Why would a secret goverment porject involve IP and other legal restricions?
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The actual reason is because they just dont have the required technology for minituarisation, (to make ever small and accurate sensors) to the technical expertise of making such missiles
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As mentioned many mnay times it's not about being a pirate (cloning). Have a read.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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See China has the most FABulous FABs in the world (pun intended ), yet that country buys missile technology from Ukraine, Russia and Israel, especially cruise missiles. Why ?
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You are kidding yourself. Most of the IC made in Malaysia, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore, Japan, USA, UK (rare these days) and same for France, and Germany. China may well produce large amounts of IC but they are nearly always simple low cost devices e.g. The PIC microcontroler range, Op-Amp etc..... stuff that you will always need. RAM sometimes made in China as it's much more simplier to manufacture than lets say a 0.8um GPU. Chinese could if needed setup such a plant. The reason they buy these missiles is it's more cost effective. If they where to produce 200,000 crusie missiles it would be a different story.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
risc, nuclear weapons are a special case, no one uses private companies for that, but for everything else, you need a large technology base. Look at how many companies are involved with the F-22. We do have some highly skilled people, but not the resources to build and mass produce everything inhouse. We used outside components and designs for the nukes, and if we hadn't, it would have taken us much longer.
Lahore, On the UAV website, I see no evidence that all electronics and components are made in Pakistan. They only say that they build the airframe and software and from what I can see they buy off the shelf components and integrate it with the UAV. Not an easy task and one I don't want to just brush off.
Suparco and all would be nowhere without Chinese and other foreign help.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
No No No. The reason private companies make wepons is becuase it's a commercial program i.e. money making business. You cant seriously be suggesting somehow being a private company gives you a commerical advantage.
Take for example Lockhead they develop and have sold the Titan ICBM system to the UK for many billions of pounds. In Pkaistan the goverment is developing the IRBM program. If their is a comapny with the expertise available the goverment is likely to let it bid for a project.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
costs less, lower risk and likely to be quicker reliying on already existant teams and poole of expereince.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
We seem to be going in circles.
My point is that you need high tech industry, even if they are making consumer products from where you can take and cultivate talent and resources from. Government funding and resources are very important but by themselves will nto ammount for much.
What proof do I have? Just look at Pakistan's weapons development. And cost is not the only reason why we have looked to China for help. Labour afterall will be cheaper in Pakistan.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
with that attitide of, no we cant do that. Let's ask someone to give it us on a plate wont get you oir Pakistan anywhere.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Lahore, On the UAV website, I see no evidence that all electronics and components are made in Pakistan. They only say that they build the airframe and software and from what I can see they buy off the shelf components and integrate it with the UAV. Not an easy task and one I don't want to just brush off.
Do you see any evidence that all electronics and components are not made in Pakistan? Companies, when giving out specs about their products, always list the foreign help they recieved or the foreign component they used on the product.
Here is what I got from the front page of the website:
**INTEGRATED DYNAMICS is a full supply source for everything you need* to get a UAV/RPV project in the air including Platforms, Flight control systems, C-cubed systems, Data links, Payloads, Ground Support Equipment, We also provide a full line of accessories such as Ground Support Equipment (GSE), APU's, Starters, Battery management systems, and Launch and Recovery systems.*
Read through the list of their products, and find me one sub-system thats not made in Pakistan.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
This is the brochure for the Jassos UAV, developed by SATUMA (Pakistani Company):
http://www.satuma.com.pk/uav/JASOOS%20MK2.pdf
Read the last paragraph on the first page. It reads: Jassos is a 100% indigenous design
The max. 1-way range is 300km. Just 210km short of Babur.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Aviation International News
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/Dubai/Dubai_03/d2beaglep38.html
Pakistan’s Beagle to sniff U.S. borders
by Brian Walters
An unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) dubbed ‘Border Eagle,’ together with ground display software, is to be supplied by Integrated Dynamics (ID) to the U.S. Homeland Border Control. Some 20 of these mini surveillance systems are to be delivered before the end of February and an example is featured on the Pakistan-based company’s Dubai 2003 exhibit (Stand No. W102). On-board sensors are to be supplied in the U.S.
ID is making its second appearance at a Dubai show, having previously promoted its UAV expertise in 1997 and winning orders as a result. Although Pakistan is the company’s biggest customer for UAVs and support systems, its expertise in flight control, telecommand and control systems has won recognition in several other countries including France and the UK to which such electronic equipment has been supplied.
While the company’s smaller UAVs are powered by piston engines in the pusher configuration, the Tornado 2000 aerial target and decoy system, also on display, is powered by two 18-pound thrust mini turbojets, which endow a speed range of 70 to 300 knots. To help train UAV operators, ID has developed pilot and mission simulators that offer low cost solutions to training requirements that would otherwise oblige use of real UAVs.
The pilot simulator provides a high level of realism and can support single or multiple instrument failures, while the mission simulator enables the user to analyze the mission before the actual flight, thus reducing risk and increasing system cost effectiveness.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Khehkeshan, read this carefully:
Although Pakistan is the company’s biggest customer for UAVs and support systems, **its expertise in flight control, telecommand and control systems has won recognition in several other countries including France and the UK to which such electronic equipment has been supplied.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
I’m sorry but I just don’t have trust in Pakistani sources when it comes to defence products. It was said that Ghauri is 100% indigenous but now we know it is 100% north korean. Many other examples, but lets not go there.
No where on the websites it says that all the parts are manufactured in Pakistan. If they are 100% designed in Pakistan, that’s a good start and one I applaud but I remain highly skeptical of our production capabilities for engines, electronics and sensors.
For example, on the satuma website, this picture is interesting.
http://www.satuma.com.pk/drone/pix/drone%20(4).jpg
Precedent is a manufacturer of propellers for toy R/C planes and not Pakistani. Only one picture and one example, but there is no way of knowing where the engine or sensors are from.