Pakistan will be getting 500 aim-120 amraam from America with the F-16. aim-120 is the most important thing in the whole package. Does pakistan has the ability to reverse-engineer the aim-120 ?
The Jf-17 that Pakistan is making are NOT very high tech, and if a Jf-17 without a aim-120 meet a F-16, the f-16 would win. But if Pakistan can reverse-engineer the aim-120 and put it on Jf-17, then in BVR fight, the jf-17 can be as good as the f-16, cause in Beyond visual range (BVR) it is the misssssile that counts and not the plane itself.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Pakistan will be getting 500 aim-120 amraam from America with the F-16. aim-120 is the most important thing in the whole package. Does pakistan has the ability to reverse-engineer the aim-120 ?
The Jf-17 that Pakistan is making are NOT very high tech, and if a Jf-17 without a aim-120 meet a F-16, the f-16 would win. But if Pakistan can reverse-engineer the aim-120 and put it on Jf-17, then in BVR fight, the jf-17 can be as good as the f-16, cause in Beyond visual range (BVR) it is the misssssile that counts and not the plane itself.
The rules against reverse engineering are very stern
Pakistan by buying these weapons has signed a very strict documents which prevents pakistan from reverse engineering these missiles
and if does, it could face sanctions, no spare parts for its weapon purchases
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
If reverse engineering were so easy, everyone would be doing it. Even if we wanted, we cannot replicate high tech missiles like the AIM-120. Even the Chinese would have problem doing so and this is because of how weapons technology is made. It is intended to be rugged and resilient to tampering. You can't just take out its electronic processors and start making copies of it. It would be near useless without the software which is likely encrypted and even if you beat that, you only have binary code, not source code that you can use or change.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
the way it fires, operates, detonation yield, etc.....
pakistan is not a pariah state like north korea and iran
any such development will result in severe reprecussions
And they say Babur is a reverse-engineered Tomahawk.
Tell me why the U.S did not say anything to Pakistan after viewing that the shape of the Babur, launching style, as well as projectory of the Babur was the exact same as the Tomahawk? Not to mention, it was developed a few years after an American Tomahawk landed in Pakistan (by mistake).
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Tell me why the U.S did not say anything to Pakistan after viewing that the shape of the Babur, launching style, as well as projectory of the Babur was the exact same as the Tomahawk? Not to mention, it was developed a few years after an American Tomahawk landed in Pakistan (by mistake).
Well most cruise missiles are similar in shape, but Babur is more similar to Tomahawk, thats right. Launching styles and trajectories of most cruise missiles is similar. You know just like all aircraft take-off from a runway and then their landing gears are withdrawn so similarly cruise missiles also takeoff and proceed in the same way. So US knows that Babur is inspired from tomahawk, but they cant do anything.
Also Babur does not have the 'insides' of tomahawk because that is impossible to replicate. If a supercomputer is landed on North korea's coast like James bond in 'Die Another Day', it does not mean that North korea will reverse-engineer it to make their own. In the same way, Aim-120 cannot be reverse-engineered if you simply dismantle it.
Actually many countries have Aim-120 : Turkey, Spain, Taiwan, Bahrain (according to wikipedia) but they have not been able reverse-engineer it. So like Babar, Pakistan can only copy the shape and some mechanical systems but not the electronics or the 'brain' of Aim-120.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Rightly said. However, the point of my post was that it is impossible for anyone else to find out if their product has been reverse-engineered or not, because most militaries keep these types of things (i.e. internal systems of the missile) confidential from the public.
So, the question to m2k rises again: How will anyone find out that these missiles have been reverse-engineered?
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
America does have spies and intelligence operations. Plus the production out of nowhere of a missile with similar characteristics to the AMRAAM will be a slight hint.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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You can't just take out its electronic processors and start making copies of it. It would be near useless without the software which is likely encrypted and even if you beat that, you only have binary code, not source code that you can use or change.
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It's total bull. Anything can be reverse enginered. It's just a matter of cost and patience. You can make copies of processors, they are just layers of silicon with substrates. How do you think companies like ChipWorls operate. They have better documentation for processors than the makers.
Software has to at some point be in binary to be executed on the processor. If you had your own fab which goverment agencies can it's very easy to add the debug features removed from production processors. Even enthusiats have much success hacking secure systems like cards using spikes, and other extreme enviroments. The idea behind reverse enginering is not to 'clone; the hardware but understand how it works. Having binary is not a massive problem, with an assembler you can easily make changes if needed.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Software has to at some point be in binary to be executed on the processor. If you had your own fab which goverment agencies can it's very easy to add the debug features removed from production processors. Even enthusiats have much success hacking secure systems like cards using spikes, and other extreme enviroments. The idea behind reverse enginering is not to 'clone; the hardware but understand how it works. Having binary is not a massive problem, with an assembler you can easily make changes if needed.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
If it was all that easy, why is the JF-17 made in China still not better than the F-16's? In fact, it is still less capable than the F-16.
Coming back to missiles, even if we were to determine the hardware layout, we still would not be anywhere closer to developing our version of the missile. This is not like commercial products where you have some documentation available. These are well guarded secrets, and it would take many years and many experienced people to figure it all out. But even then, trying to decipher the complex algorithms from binary or machine code is extremely difficult and needless to say Pakistan neither has the experience or people necessary to do this.
And also, we have no manufacturing capability for complex microprocessors.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
How stupid can you get...!!!
He was talking about a "simple" processor on a missile. I'm sure, everyone remembers the 40 cruise missiles fired on Osama a couple of years back, & 2 of them landed in Balochistan unxploded. Pakistan successfully built their own, & I'm sure everyone must have heard about it.
If a bloody terrorist state like israel can own american made missiles which are used to kill innocent civilians in muslim land, then Pakistan has every right to reverse engineer a missile,** to enhance security needs**; reprecussions or not
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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This is not like commercial products where you have some documentation available.
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No but you can order one from walmrt ffs.
If someone was paying me lots of money to sit down every day have a play with the guidance system of a missile I would be working out how it works at each stage. So that means documenting what I have learnt. At the end you have some big books detailing how the missile works, like a blue print document the manufacturer would have.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
obviously the manufacturers (not us GOV) would sell it as black box technology i.e. remains our intelectual property with no reverse enginering/cloning. They can ofcourse add protections.
Think of this, every games console to date has been hacked. The copy protection is what makes or breaks a console e.g. the SEGA dreamcast was hacked withought any modiications so no one bought any original games. Therefore manufacturrers like Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo spend vast amounts of money making a copy protection that will hold. All have been broken by enthusiats working in spare time from home. Tools such as fabs, electron microscope, manipulating silicon directly is not available to them. A goverment agency would have the reources to buy this equipment and other reources. I am sure their are people in Pakistan with the expertise to take on such a challenge. The only problem I cna see id Pakistan does not have it's own fab. It will need to use such as those in Taiwan where I'm sure US will have spies. If pakistan was serious about the IT indistry they would have opend up a fab by now.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Well actually I dont agree. Intel processors are sold in China also and China has FAB facilities. China has still not been able to manufacture processors of the density or design of Intel.
I agree as you said that reverse-engineering is not cloning. But to make chips, a FAB must have the technology for V/ULSI integration. All FABs are not the same. The mathematical architecture for the chip is another matter.
India has also made a 32-bit 33 Mhz RISC processor called Anupama. I dont think that it is as functional as even Pentium I.
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Software has to at some point be in binary to be executed on the processor. If you had your own fab which goverment agencies can it's very easy to add the debug features removed from production processors. Even enthusiats have much success hacking secure systems like cards using spikes, and other extreme enviroments. The idea behind reverse enginering is not to 'clone; the hardware but understand how it works. Having binary is not a massive problem, with an assembler you can easily make changes if needed.
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The embedded systems in the Tomahawk missiles are in classified programming languages and not C or C#. So only Raytheon will have the required assemblers for that. I dont think anything can be gained simply with possessing the chips.