Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
At any rate - there is a trust issue. Once you violate a trust by reverse engineering a technology sold to you, you are unable to get more technology from that same source.
That's why Taiwan, which has one of the world's most advanced electronics industry, has not produced a reverse-engineered AMRAAM.
A totally different matter is when you obtain foreign technology by some other means. Pakistan makes no secret of the fact that it tried to reverse engineer a Tomohawk cruise missile that landed in Pakistan during Clinton's 1998 strike on alleged Al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. Indeed, since the US broke trust with Pakistan in that case by not asking permission to fire across Pakistan, Pakistan did not return the Tomohawk and apparently even gave it to China when our scientists learnt all they could from it.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
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Well actually I dont agree. Intel processors are sold in China also and China has FAB facilities. China has still not been able to manufacture processors of the density or design of Intel.
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As I outlined that is the problem I forsee. Most fabs in China run by Taiwanese companese. Taiwanese law forbids running fabs where large processors can be designed - search may bring up the tech requirments. The other problem is of Intelectual Property, I'm sure US would not take favourbaly to a large US corportion being ripped off.
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The embedded systems in the Tomahawk missiles are in classified programming languages and not C or C#. So only Raytheon will have the required assemblers for that. I dont think anything can be gained simply with possessing the chips.
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Regardless you cant expect to disassemble to any 4th gen language. At it's best dissasmeblers have mamnaged to generate pseduo C code. What you can expect is to easily have assembler code available. Once you understand the architecture of the processor i.e. execution diassembling is a stright forward process from binary. This still byhappens to be the most used method of reverse enginering. Look at IDA Pro, OlyDbg etc....
Let's say I was working on reverse eng this missile as I said previously I would not be cloning the hardware, but understanding the operation. For this I do not need the source code of any software or ASIC. The information learnt then would ideally be put into use for developing an indingeous missle sysem. Being able to manipulate a CPU directly could be very helpful but not necessary e.g. if you can see removed pinouts for a JTAG making your own clone where you can read, manipulate registers directly ofcourse would save you large amounts of time.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
it comes down to the missiles in moderen warfare. How mnay dog fights to US/UK jets get involved in? no need if you can make a kill 100 miles away. Amram 120 BTW has a range of ~30miles, in comaprison to moderen missiles and avionics it's not cutting edge right now although many of it's principles such as automated tracking are.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
I would agree with risc that perhaps theoretically anything can be reverse-engineered, but practically it's much harder and not really possible for a country like Pakistan to do.
And no, I don't believe the electronics on the JF-17 are as advanced as the F-16, which again goes to show that even China cannot fully master reverse engineering of the F-16 gifted to them.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
And no, I don't believe the electronics on the JF-17 are as advanced as the F-16, which again goes to show that even China cannot fully master reverse engineering of the F-16 gifted to them.
Which type of F-16 are you talking about? A/B, C/D, E/F don't have the same electronics.
You don't need to reverse-engineer a product in order to produce something better. China built J-11's under Russian license, including the electronics, which are superior to F-16's (Block15) electronics. Now don't tell me that they can't use the knowledge gained from Russian ToT on the Jf-17.
In-depth details about the electronics of Jf-17 have not even been made public by CAC, so how can you make such comments about the a/c?
Lastly, there is no proof of anyone gifting an F-16 to China. Pakistan is short on F-16's for its own needs - why would it gift it to China?
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Reverse-engineering is not something very easy to do. It takes time, money, and skills in the field. Its takes years to do something of this calibre.
A missile is not as complicated as an air craft. For an a/c you would have to reverse engineer, not only the electronics, but also the avionics & the engine (which is the hardest part). Pakistan is certainly incapable of reverse-engineering avionics & engines, let alone produce their own avionics & engines. Only a handful of countries have developed their own engines. This is not something easy to do. You see India tried to develop their own engine (Kaveri). Its been 20 years, and its still failing tests again & again.
It is known fact that the Chinese are the best at reverse-engineering. They've reverse-engineered the Su-27 (one of the finest a/c in the world). They've reverse-engineered Russian engines, and now producing/testing their own variant of it. They've done it with tanks, they've done it with planes, they've done it with missiles.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
A missile is not as complicated as an air craft. For an a/c you would have to reverse engineer, not only the electronics, but also the avionics & the engine (which is the hardest part). Pakistan is certainly incapable of reverse-engineering avionics & engines, let alone produce their own avionics & engines. Only a handful of countries have developed their own engines. This is not something easy to do. You see India tried to develop their own engine (Kaveri). Its been 20 years, and its still failing tests again & again.
It is known fact that the Chinese are the best at reverse-engineering. They've reverse-engineered the Su-27 (one of the finest a/c in the world). They've reverse-engineered Russian engines, and now producing/testing their own variant of it. They've done it with tanks, they've done it with planes, they've done it with missiles.
maybe thats why their military is totally incapable of invading Taiwan and defeating its American armed military
Reverse engineering is a stop gap measure
We need to develop our own missiles to fill our needs, reverse engineering is like putting a finger in a hole in a dam
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Last year, Taiwanese military conducted a simulation of how long it would take for China to invade Taiwan. The end result came out to: 3 weeks. And, this was done in Taiwan, not China.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Reverse Enginering is not a stop gap measure. It is a a process to learn, same as doing research e.g the Amram can detect and home into a target using it's internal guidance so the avionics on a f-16 can track and engage another target. You could spend vast amounts of money reasearching how to build a small rader with AI (Fuzzy Logic, Neural Networks) to independantly assess and destory a target. Or you could see how others achieve this task and learn from their mistakes.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Pakistan are unlikely to do this because:
1) USA not likely to send any more semi high tech wepaons to PK
2) Why spend money on RE when you will not be producing it indegiously, PK does not have the manufacturing capabilaty. Someone like Iran would attempt due to sanctions
3) RE could lead to indigious improved future system. Would require better avionics to go with a better, longer range missile. Avionics another system PK not perticulary advanced on.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
I’m talking about the ones we have, F-16 A/B. I remember reading a statement by PAF that the JF-17 will replace the F-7 and not the F-16, which will remain the top line fighter. The situation may be different now.
But even then as you say, China needs Russian licensed technology (ToT) and not simply reverse engneering. We gave China the F-16 during the time when we had no sanctions and had 70 F-16’s on order.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Jf-17 was never meant to replace the F-16's. That does not mean Jf-17 is inferior to the F-16's. Until the MLU kits are integerated, the Jf-17 **will **remain superior to the F-16 (Block-15).
But even then as you say, China needs Russian licensed technology (ToT) and not simply reverse engneering. We gave China the F-16 during the time when we had no sanctions and had 70 F-16's on order.
It is a known fact, and Russians themselves have agreed that the Chinese build better Su-27's than the Russians themselves.
There is no such thing as 'simple reverse-engineering'. Reverse-engineering is a process of studying the product, learning how it operates, and building something relative to it. Nobody reverse-engineers weapons just for the sake of copying it. Its done for research & development, gaining insight about the product, and applying the knowledge gained into newer projects. Example: build Russian masterpieces of electronics (Su-27), gain skills, experience, in the field, and apply it to other indigenous projects (i.e. Jf-17).
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Look everybody knows how Aim-120 missiles function. First the target is 'painted' for the missile by the F-16's radar in the mid-phase. The missile guides itself accordingly towards the target i.e. actuators on its fins bend the fins up or down depending whether the missile wants to turn left or right in pursuit of its target.In the final phase the missile's active radar seeker turns on and it goes towards the target.
Now all of this cannot be ascertained by studying a chip, whose functionality cannot be known. You know like you cant simply pass current on to the chip and see what happens.
Reverse engineering chip companies reverse-engineer only those chips whose some basic knowledge is known to them. They just cant determine the functionality of any tom dick harry chip.
I agree that most Chinese FAB plants are Taiwanese but the few Chinese plants that are there are also top-class and are enough for fabrication of modern chips.
Even then all of Chinese missiles like SD-10 (Chinese Amraam), PL-9 etc. was made possible only by huge amounts of technology sold to them by Israel. Most of Chinese cruise missile tech has come from Ukrainian kh-55 and Russian cruise missile tech. Chinese simply improve upon the existing tech somewhat.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
and we all know how to send man to the moon. Put them in a moon vehicle, big rocket underneath and light the fuse.
FFS grow up, a kid can tell you how a missile works but can you produce a system with enough processing power to operate a missile at mach4, the right software sensors (rader) etc....
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Now all of this cannot be ascertained by studying a chip, whose functionality cannot be known. You know like you cant simply pass current on to the chip and see what happens.
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Why not? are you suggesting if you know the architecture of the processor which can be public or reverse enginers, have the instructions in binary (taken from CPU before executed [unecrypted]) you could not work out how the darn thing works?
BTW you can see whats happening in a chip. Therirs these things called simulators where you can build up the gates (transitios) of a chip and let super computers simulate what is happening. In pakistan cant happen in real time. Other methods do interface with the chip directly.
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Reverse engineering chip companies reverse-engineer only those chips whose some basic knowledge is known to them. They just cant determine the functionality of any tom dick harry chip
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I'm sure somewhere in your life you came across a Z80 unknowingly, a very old and successful CPU. Binary compatible with the intel 8080. Soviets where not given access to thip obviously as military also used it - cold war days. How did the Soviets make a clone? they did not understand the architecture so your statment is flawed. A chip is simply transisitors you can work your way backwards eventually.
Obvious some downt know **** all about electronics, computers and security protections involved.
For an introduction look at Bunnie’s adventure with Xbox. MS must have spent millions on deigning a protection but it did NOT last very long. This was a more simple process as it used a x86 arhitecture CPU. A few more steps for ‘unknown’ architecture which would be very rare. http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
The technical jargon is beyond my knowledge, but what I do know is that Pakistan does not have the capability to reverse engineer and mass produce advanced missiles or weapon systems without Chinese or other foreign assistance.
Even with the Al-Khalid, the basic design and fire control system is Chinese, the transmission and engine is Ukrainian. We simply manufacture the hull and assemble the systems together. Not an easy undertaking for a country Pakistan, but that's the limit of our defence industry's capabilities.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
Even with the Al-Khalid, the basic design and fire control system is Chinese, the transmission and engine is Ukrainian. We simply manufacture the hull and assemble the systems together. Not an easy undertaking for a country Pakistan, but that's the limit of our defence industry's capabilities.
Instead of wasting resources on reverse engineering, we should develop our own missiles.
We need a defensive oriented army and not offensive oriented.
We need to create atleast 1 Division of Anti-Tank Troops such as the Egyptians deployed against the Israelis during the Yom Kippur War and at least 3 divisions of Anti-Air Craft Batteries and Missiles.
China does not have many advance anti-tank missiles.
Russia, USA, Israel make the most deadly anti-tank missiles and we need to cultivate strong ties with Russia.
Re: Can Pakistan reverse-engineer the aim-120 amraam ?
How can you make statements like these when the technical jargon is beyond your knowledge? You must have something to support your argument.
Chinese cruise-missiles are not even close in resemblance to the Babur/Tomahawk. How then can China help us?
Again, just like merc, you are comparing a more complicated system (which is in fact an assembly of systems), to something much less complicated, such as a missile. This is not a valid comparison. A missile doesn’t have components such as transmission & fire-control systems.
Before you go on… let me just point out that cruise-missiles are somewhat relative to UAV’s. Go read, and learn about UAV’s, and how many dozens & dozens of UAV’s Pakistan has developed on its own (without foreign help), how much experience Pakistan has in this field, and then come back here and argue.
Here is the website of Integrated Dynamics (based in Karachi), which supplied America with the Border Eagle UAV’s: http://www.idaerospace.com/