This thread is almost too funny and filled with the greatest sort of hypocricy. So far, the only "ulterior purpose" identified in these bible thumpers is a desire to try to convert Muslims to Christianity. In the US, we call that freedom of speech and religion. None of you complainers seem to have any problem with Muslims trying to convert Christians, Jews, Mormons, Baptists or anyone else to Islam in America. In fact, if our government took any steps to try to prevent Muslims from exercising their faith and/or trying to convince others to become Muslims, you would be raising a stink greater than that arising out of the largest garbage dump.
Logically speaking, you should only "fear" these efforts at conversion if you believe they will be successful. If one's faith and belief system can be changed merely by being exposed to another faith and belief system, you've really got to wonder about the legitimacy of the theological underpinnings of the faith being abandoned. Can someone tell me any other faith where so many of the believers try so hard to prevent their followers from hearing and learning about other faiths?
Anyone whose faith is solidly grounded will do the same thing I do when some Mormons or Jehovahs witnesses show up at my door bearing gifts and wanting to talk to me about their faith; i.e. take the gifts and show them the sidewalk. Muslim Iraqis who are not interested in the religious philosophy of these bible thumpers ought to simply take the food, take the water, take the building materials and tell these bible thumpers to shove their religious beliefs.
The arguments advanced in this thread clearly demonstrate that there are some Guppies who clearly believe that freedom of religion and speech should not be core rights preserved to the Iraqi people. You must therefore believe that they are not devout enough Muslims to be trusted with those rights.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
This thread is almost too funny and filled with the greatest sort of hypocricy. So far, the only "ulterior purpose" identified in these bible thumpers is a desire to try to convert Muslims to Christianity. In the US, we call that freedom of speech and religion. None of you complainers seem to have any problem with Muslims trying to convert Christians, Jews, Mormons, Baptists or anyone else to Islam in America. .....
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None of those Muslims in US have any endorsement from their governments, and none of those Muslim countries invaded US for any purpose.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
...
Anyone whose faith is solidly grounded will do the same thing I do when some Mormons or Jehovahs witnesses show up at my door bearing gifts and wanting to talk to me about their faith; i.e. take the gifts and show them the sidewalk. ....
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You have no idea how a poor, hungry feels, do you? How a person will behave when his home is destroyed, no food, no money, a "charity" organization offers him food and a place to live (with "preaching" hidden in "charity" minds).
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
None of those Muslims in US have any endorsement from their governments, and none of those Muslim countries invaded US for any purpose.
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I see. So you'd have no problem with some Christian bible thumpers from any country but the US bringing food, water and building materials to Iraq and trying to convert the Iraqis?
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
You have no idea how a poor, hungry feels, do you? How a person will behave when his home is destroyed, no food, no money, a "charity" organization offers him food and a place to live (with "preaching" hidden in "charity" minds).
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So what? I've got no problem with Muslims targeting the downtrodden in prisons with their messages of conversion.
Are the poor and downtrodden not entitled to freedom of speech and religion? Do you think you are the right person to decide what they should hear and what they should be required to believe?
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Originally posted by lunaticCalm:
*I view these evangelicals no differently than I view the Al-qaeda fundamentalists. *
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Exactly. But do you see how most American's in this thread are prepared to condemn fundementalists and their links to governments all over the world, but the USA. We hear no condemnations from some American's to the fact their government is closely aligned with Christian fundementalists who have preached hatred against others, instead we hear excuses and justifications for it. This thread has been quite an eye opener to see some American's actually make excuses and justifications for Christian fundementalists, and their links to the Bush regime.
I still don't get it. If Christain proselytising is so terrible, so widespread, and so effective that is is threatening, then why is Islam the fastest growing religion?
The allegation of missionaries conducting coercisive proselytising is thready at best. And the reaction of witholding food water or medicine in an Islamic country is bound to meet with some (ahem) protests from the locals. I doubt that would last long.
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Originally posted by Ohioguy: I still don't get it.
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Then I will repeat the question for you. It's one thing trying to defend fundementalist Christian hate mongers under the banner of "freedom of speech" but the point is why is your President so close to these people? He and his officials are keen on condemning fundementalists the world over, and castigating any governments or peoples that have contact with such people, so why is it different for Bush? Why does he feel the need to pander to fundementalist hate mongers with no respect for other faiths, and preach the opposite to the rest of the world? It must be true that Bush got elected and will only get re-elected if he get's the votes of Christian fundementalists and hate mongers?
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
So what? I've got no problem with Muslims targeting the downtrodden in prisons with their messages of conversion.
Are the poor and downtrodden not entitled to freedom of speech and religion? Do you think you are the right person to decide what they should hear and what they should be required to believe?
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
I see. So you'd have no problem with some Christian bible thumpers from any country but the US bringing food, water and building materials to Iraq and trying to convert the Iraqis?
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Don't mix apples with oranges. US is VERY welcome to bring in as much food, water as is need of masses, but to slip your other intentions with that is NOT.
I want to ask the americans this. The US is built on the foundations of tolerance and equality. Yet when it comes to these friends of Bush. Both are insulted. Yet you say nothing?
First, I think you grossly over estimate the influence of Graham/Fallwell etc. Infact, your obcession with these people is bordering on paranoia.
Second, you repeatedly link fundamentalist Christians and hate-mongers. This is as repulsive to me as constantly linking the words Muslim and terrorist. Please have as much respect for my religion as you demand for yours.
CM, the people you refer to are almost charicatures. They are entitled to their opinions, and we view the vast majority of their comments as criticism and commentary, not hateful. Your repulsion at thier comments is understandable, but more than a little hypersensitive.
In other words you wont denounce them. Just ignore them. Cant you do the same to the crazy mullah in Iraq? Nope that guy is public enemy number 1. Anyway if people who spread hatred are friends of the President couldnt his judgement be swayed?
*First, I think you grossly over estimate the influence of Graham/Fallwell etc. *
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If that is so, then Bush and co would not have to have any direct association and close links with these Christian fundementalists and bigots? So why do Bush and co feel the need to pander to these bgots who obviously preach an extremist version of Christianity? The fact that you have so far utterly failed to condemn the fact of Bush's association with Christian fanatics who preach hatred towards other faiths is the most telling feature of this thread.
Oh, hell, I don't just denounce them, they are laughable. Everyone of these guys has to appear publically every 18 months or so to pull his foot out of his mouth. The Fundamentalist Christian movement is very powerful, and only a very small number of them have a great deal of respect for Robertson and Fallwell. Indeed these guys are almost an embarrassment to the Fundamentalist Christian movement. You have far more to fear from Rush Limbaugh.
Fundamentalist Christians actually have a great deal in common with the views of Muslims. Issues such as alcohol, family values, pornography, abortion, sexual relations, and morality in the media would be indistinguishable. You have more in common with them than you may know. That is the nature of Bush's "pandering", the vast majority of these people are very fine moral and caring people, despite a few Boneheaded fringe leaders.
If these idiots were the only ones who had the president's ear, I would be very concerned. There are fringe elements and I doubt have any sway over administration policy. But as Ohioguy pointed out, fundamentalists and hate-mongers are not two terms that necessarily go together.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Fundamentalist Christians actually have a great deal in common with the views of Muslims. Issues such as alcohol, family values, pornography, abortion, sexual relations, and morality in the media would be indistinguishable. You have more in common with them than you may know. That is the nature of Bush's "pandering", the vast majority of these people are very fine moral and caring people, despite a few Boneheaded fringe leaders.
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Yet in the US the Muslim ones are wanted dead or alive. But the christian ones have lunch with the pres. I guess that is how the US works.