Bush's fundementalist Christian allies / Islam-haters off to Iraq

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

mufakkar:
Being hypocritical is a far different charge than having ulterior purposes. I repeat my question, what ulterior purposes do these folks have in supplying food, water and building materials to Iraqis?

As to Muslim relief organizations, you'd have to show me a source or two before I'd believe that Muslim relief organizations are poised at the borders with all the food, water and building materials the Iraqis need. I'm all in favor of Muslim relief organizations participating in this cause. But I sort of doubt they have they financial wherewithall to supply all the present and future needs of the Iraqi people.

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mufakkar: *
Wait a minute OG, whats so remarkable...Franklin Graham has close ties to the Bush White house, one of the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention called Muhammad a demon posessed pedophile a day before Bush addressed the convention. SBC has a large following bigger than what you would classify as a cult anyway. Maybe painting all conservative Christians with the same brush is too much, but given the circumstances not remarkable.
[/QUOTE]

As you can see excuses are being made for Christian fundementalists and Islam-haters who have such close personal ties with the Bush regime. Then these people lecture everyone else on condemning fundementalists elsewhere, yet cannot condemn Christian fundementalists in America themselves...so revealing to read.

23

Not in my part of the world it does not. Its a very short hop from hypocricy to some global anti Islamic conspiracy..the fact that y’all are foreigners from far away doesen’t help either.

Here is the link to a story: http://www.dawn.com/2003/04/18/nat23.htm

Au contraire, as far as Edhi is concerned I think he has the wherewithal to deal with the crises maybe not in all of Iraq but definitely in a part of it. Could anyone please check what other Muslims organizations are involved in Iraqi relief efforts. I would think that between the Aga Khan foundation and some rich Shiekhs we would have this relief thingie covered, which further calls into question the presence of fundamentalist Christians.

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**

Accurate indeed. :k: Samaritan’s Purse is one of the evangelical groups poised to enter Iraq. Their record is not that satisfactory: "In the past, Samaritan’s Purse, a recipient of US government funding, has been warned not to mix religious and relief activities. After the Gulf war of 1991 it was accused of putting preaching before aid after distributing missionary tracts in Saudi Arabia." One issue that i did not come across this thread, is that of missionaries preaching to people who are already in a sufficiently desperate plight. Are we playing upon (read exploiting) their vulnerability - providing aid with religious strings attached? But most disturbingly of all perhaps - who can possibly believe that where Mr. Franklin Graham goes, he does not export his particular hate-filled brand of Islam-bashing and Muslim-demonization with him?

Bible brigade is ready to roll

Bringing aid and the Bible, the man who called Islam wicked

Some interesting comments from the second article:

**

And from an evangelical author: “We must do this with a genuine desire to serve human needs. If this is viewed as a pretence for evangelism it will only hurt the Christian cause, and perhaps further endanger the lives of the 600,000 Christians in Iraq.”

25

You guys are so paranoid on this issue!

But, I can gurantee you that immediately after 9/11 Bush went out of his way to attend Mosques, meet with Muslim leaders, and state repeatedly that we have no conflict with Islam. THAT would have been the time when all this "influence would have changed policy.

Today Bush appears in front of a large Iraqi expat group in Dearborn, and is roundly applauded!

"America pledged to rid Iraq of an oppressive regime, and we kept our word,” he said. "America now pledges to help Iraqis build a prosperous and peaceful nation, and we will keep our word again.”

Dearborn, a suburb of Detroit, is home to the largest Arab-American community in the nation, many of Iraqi descent. The community erupted in celebration when Hussein was toppled from power earlier this month, and similar emotions were evident today. The audience of several hundred invited guests greeted Bush with shouts of support and frequent chants of "USA! USA!”

When Bush quoted one Iraqi-American as telling him she never believed Hussein would be gone, a member of the audience shouted, "He’s gone!” and another cried out, "Because of you, Mr. President!”

One man in the crowd, Mohammed Alshara, showed up draped in a full-size American flag, which he raised high over his head when Bush entered the hall. "This is to show our appreciation to him for making Iraq a free country,” said Alshara, 33, a construction worker who said he emigrated to Dearborn in 1992 after his father was killed in the 1991 Shiite uprising against Hussein.

Bush responded with equal emotion, quoting an Iraqi woman as telling him her family only felt safe talking about Hussein with the windows closed. "The windows are now open in Iraq,” he said. “The days of repression from any source are over. Iraq will be democratic.””
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nyc-bush0429,0,913548.story?coll=nyc-topnews-short-navigation

But wait! If these conservative Christians are SO powerful and influential then what is Bush doing appearing before an Arab-American group? why would these Arab Americans be chearing him if he was clearly in the pocket of the “Islam haters”?

The obsession with the KKK, fundamental Christians and militia right wing groups is almost funny!

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

But the problem is that your President knows quite a lot of Islam-hating Christian fundementalists, and that is a fact. Yet we have him condemning other fundementalists the world over, or is that American Christian fundementalists can be excused (as they are by most American's in this thread) for their hate towards Muslims?

The ignorance towards the influence of Christian fundementalists in America with close ties Bush is remarkable.
[/QUOTE]

Thing is Malik, you let one sentence spoken by a Billy Graham crusader color your views on the rest of christianity. Believe it or not, there are some good people out there.

Christianity comes in many flavors.

And some of those flavors are fundo-flavors.

Just like Islam.

27

You mean the The audience of several hundred invited guests… - my what a cheering crowd that is. :rolleyes:

We all know that exaggerations and mistruths have become official policy in the White House, but it seems you are following suit. Here take a read…

Local Iraqis question Bush](http://www.freep.com/news/locway/change28_20030428.htm)

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
**Thing is Malik, you let one sentence spoken by a Billy Graham crusader color your views on the rest of christianity.*
[/QUOTE]

Fundos DO come in all stripes and shades. But not all fundos of Graham's character have indirect endorsement by an American administration.

29

these are all selective gestures only to deceive the world. Quoting one / two people can’t justify anything. in a country with population over 25million, you are using these pockets of people to tell us that they think iraQ is liberated and everything will be alright? they’ve been living in USA for years. Ask them if they will go back and live under the rule of USA and then tell the world whether iraQ really is liberated or not.

30

"[Reverend Graham] has repeatedly stated that Islam is intentionally cruel. I fail to see how such a person can be a positive influence in a Muslim country. Humanitarian relief is just a cover. Their basic motivation is conversion. These groups train workers to go in under the guise of relief to convert people away from their faith. I know this because I've been on their training courses. There's a technique known as contextualisation. You never say directly you're Christian. You take chairs out of the church to make it look like a mosque. You grow a beard. You dress your wife in Islamic attire. They know they're not welcome."

Yet this unashamed bigot and fundementalist hate monger is a close friend of Bush and co, and we hear little condemnation of this man or his links to the White House. Only excuses...

31

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Malik73: *
*"[Reverend Graham] has repeatedly stated that Islam is intentionally cruel. I fail to see how such a person can be a positive influence in a Muslim country. Humanitarian relief is just a cover. Their basic motivation is conversion. These groups train workers to go in under the guise of relief to convert people away from their faith. I know this because I've been on their training courses. There's a technique known as contextualisation. You never say directly you're Christian. You take chairs out of the church to make it look like a mosque. You grow a beard. You dress your wife in Islamic attire. They know they're not welcome."**

Yet this unashamed bigot and fundementalist hate monger is a close friend of Bush and co, and we hear little condemnation of this man or his links to the White House. Only excuses...
[/QUOTE]

like Bush said in his speech
**
you are either with us or against us
**

this guy is with Bush so all is well and acceptable. :-)

32

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl:

Thing is Malik, you let one sentence spoken by a Billy Graham crusader color your views on the rest of christianity. Believe it or not, there are some good people out there.

Christianity comes in many flavors.

[/QUOTE]

I appreciate that and so do Muslims, for our religion teaches us that Christianity is the closest religion to us, after Islam. We will always have the highest regard for Christianity and Christians for Islam mandates that upon us. But the point here is that an avowed fundementalist and hate monger like Graham and others who has an impassioned hatred of Muslims and Islam is such a close friend of Bush and co. If the US government is condemning fundementalists around the world on one hand, why is it so friendly with hateful fundementalists at home?

Why do most people here find it hard to condemn Christian fundementalists in America, and instead make excuses for them?

33

I wish Bush would distance himself from Falwell, Pat Roberston and Franklin Graham. My guess is that it is a by product of America's political system. Either side (and there are only two) has only a slim majority any way you look at it. If Bush does not have the active support of the far right , his side wouldn't win.

If the US had a radical religous/far right party like other countries, he would write those bozos off to the Fundo Party and gravitate more toward the middle. Perhaps this is an indication of the flawed democracy in America and worthy of a separate thread.

34

Malik,

Regarding Grahams people in Iraq. How long do you think these people will last in Iraq if they get out of line and go too far. They will be run our of town, beaten or killed if they start promoting religion there.

As far as growing beards, removing chairs, in any other context this would be called "being culturally sensitive", like American women soldiers wearing head scarves in Saudi.

Back to Nancy Reagan. If they are offering aid, contingent upon Christianity, then JUST SAY NO! Soon enough they will be run out of town by the Mullahs.

We do not hear condemnation of Graham because he has the freedom of his views, the freedom of his speech and the free will to live his life as he wants. You are offended because you believe he has insulted your religion. In the US, this is terrible, but legal.

My personal belief, on my religion, is that it can sustain the sharpest critic. That is the prevailing view in the US, that no matter how strong the criticism, faith is strronger. That is why we do not worry about the likes of Graham, because his views, on this issue, are not accepted, nor are they universal. When he says these things he is marginalizing himself.

35

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:

We do not hear condemnation of Graham because he has the freedom of his views, the freedom of his speech and the free will to live his life as he wants.
[/QUOTE]

More excuses. It's one thing trying to defend fundementalist hate mongers under the banner of "freedom of speech" but the point is why is your President so close to these people? He and his officials are keen on condemning fundementalists the world over, and castigating any governments or peoples that have contact with such people, so why is it different for Bush? Why does he feel the need to pander to fundementalist hate mongers with no respect for other faiths, and preach the opposite to the rest of the world? It must be true that Bush got elected and will only get re-elected if he get's the votes of Christian fundementalists and hate mongers?

36

Bush does not see these Christian fundamentalists as fundamentalists but as moderate Christians.

They say that the 'buck starts at the very top and stops at the very top'. The double standards are all so prevalent that even a non english speaking pigmy could tell the difference.

God bless America should be changed to God forgive America!

37

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Malik,

Regarding Grahams people in Iraq. How long do you think these people will last in Iraq if they get out of line and go too far. They will be run our of town, beaten or killed if they start promoting religion there. .....
[/QUOTE]

They will not be promoting religion as a NIKE, or Budweiser is promoted in USA. People will be given "food", "support" and bring them to Church slowly. So it will be "like" slow poisoning, not shooting right away.

38

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *

They will not be promoting religion as a NIKE, or Budweiser is promoted in USA. People will be given "food", "support" and bring them to Church slowly. So it will be "like" slow poisoning, not shooting right away.
[/QUOTE]
It's very debatable as to whether bringing people to the Church is akin to "poisoning". There are those who believe that it is quite the opposite and actually bringing them salvation.

39

I view these evangelicals no differently than I view the Al-qaeda fundamentalists. The latter convinced a dozen or few men to fly planes into a building while the former have forced the entire US and Bristish population to take arms against Islam.

Just hear what one evangelical Sen. James Inhofe, an Oklahoma Republican had to say in his speech to the White House. I read ppl on this group say that the likes of Falwell and Graham have been sidelined, but this guy that I am quoting is a elected politician, not a preacher.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5489

"“Because God said so… Look it up in the book of Genesis… In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: ‘the Lord said to Abram [later known as Abraham], “Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you I will give it, and to your seed forever… Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.”’”

In Inhofe’s mind, these few sentences in the Bible decide the matter, end of story. This is fundamentalism. Abram was in Hebron at the time, and Hebron is in the West Bank. So this must mean God granted the Jews all that territory forever. **In Inhofe’s mind, these few sentences in the Bible decide the matter, end of story. This is fundamentalism. And not too far a throw from the Islamic fundamentalism used by terrorists who point to the Koran to justify their actions. When the anti-Inhofe protesters in Tulsa noted that the Bible and the Koran say Jews and Muslims are both descendants of Abraham, Inhofe’s responded, “I am not wavering from my view.” He argued that, according to Genesis, the Jewish line has a special covenant with God. **

If Inhofe is going to take his Middle East policy guidance directly from Genesis, he has a problem, for in Genesis 15, God makes another real-estate promise to Abram. One night, as Abram is offering an animal sacrifice to God (a three-year old cow, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a dove and a young pigeon, per God’s instructions), the All-knowing One says, **“I will give your descendants the land east of the Shihor River on the border of Egypt as far as the Euphrates River.” **

That’s some stretch. It would cover Jordan in its entirety, a big chunk of Syria, a third of Iraq, and the northern tip of Saudi Arabia. Talk about a Greater Israel. And one with oil. In his speech, Inhofe maintained the Israeli-Palestinian crisis is “not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true.” A question for the senator: Why would the word of God be true in Genesis 13, but not in Genesis 15? **Ariel Sharon better watch out for his Christian fundamentalist supporters, for they may be looking for him to send his tanks all the way to Persian Gulf. ** (:wave: they just did)

**Many also subscribe to “dispensationalism,” a Christian theology developed in the mid-1800s that holds that the existence of Israel is a necessary prelude to the rise of the Antichrist and the Second Coming of Christ. (As part of the End Time scenario, Jews supposedly have to be gathered together in one spot, and Israel offers logistical potential.) Consider this the ultimate conspiracy theory – and it prompts evangelists to be fervent supporters of Israeli hawks. **

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
It's very debatable as to whether bringing people to the Church is akin to "poisoning". There are those who believe that it is quite the opposite and actually bringing them salvation.
[/QUOTE]

By using the term "poisoning" I didn't mean exactly poisoning... I used that as a relative term, even though it will be considered as "poisoning". If they really want to "help" and "feed" then do just that, don't start preaching, if they really want "salvation' then do that open in air and not hidden/cunning ways... its like exploiting people's hunger/poverty.