One of my shia friend used to say kalma like this:
la illah ha ilallah Muhammad ur rasool Allah Ali ul walli Allah
Is this how mainstream shias say Kalma? if this is so then isnt it a little additon/alteration in the Kalma?
Zainab,
By birth I am "Sunni". My question is that what is wrong with the above Kalima? It means that Hazrat Ali is a friend of God. Do you know that: Killing of innocent person, fornication or adultery, drinking of alcohol, physical and moral corruption are big sins in Islam. Still people commit those sins irrespect of sect without any rancor. For me if some one say above Kalima and live a good Muslim Life is much better than so called Sunni Muslims who commit above crimes.
Sincerely,
FARID
Haye Allah!
Aisay hee we the Muslims are so divided and now one more issue to fan the fire!! Please!!
"Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS
BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ....The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and
justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the
omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you
away from the path of God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they
fail to think." (6:114-116)
Imranz, what exactly do you mean by what I have quoted. There were many things, and as I've mentioned above, I only said that I heard of those things. The only thing that can make them non Muslim is if they believe that their Imams can overrule the Quran and Sunnah. I have heard from sources that are reliable, that some Shias do believe this. I consider the majority of Shias Muslims, since nobody has managed to convince me otherwise.
Farid, if the Kalima that Zainab told us about is indeed an innovation, it's a serious thing. It is true that Muslims shouldn't commit the crimes you mentioned, but one must have the real Kalima in his heart. I am not knowledgeable enough at the moment to say whether it is enough for a Muslim to say that there is no God but God, and Muhammad(S.A.W.) is his messenger, then add anything on after that, or whether he must only say that there is no God but God and Muhammad(S.A.W.) is his messenger, and not add anything to that. As I have not read any Hadith on that matter, I can't say anything for sure, but I think it would be wrong. I don't think that the people who became Muslims at the time of the Prophet(S.A.W.) would have added the part about Ali(RA) at the end of their Kalima, so it seems like an innovation to me, which would make it wrong.
[This message has been edited by Asif the Macho Man (edited December 04, 1998).]
Farid
i am no one to say that it is wrong or right. I just wanted to know from some of u guys who know better. As far as who is better in the eyes of Allah,many christians and jews are far better off then many of us muslims.
Asif,
What I meant was the idea that you said you've heard from some shias about their Imams being above Allah. That is no way possible in Shiaism atleast the mainstream shias, the ones whose Fiqah has been chosen as one of the valid ones by Al Azhar's Grand Mufti & Learned Scholars not the ones who claim theirselves belonging to shias as progoganding fabricated beliefs.
Zainab and Asif the Macho Man ,
You are right many Jews and Christians are much better than Muslims. I may quote here a relevant verse from Sura 27 Hajj or The Pilgrimage of Holy Quran:
verse 17: "Those who believe in the Quran, Those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polythiesists, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: For Allah is witness of all the things".
Who knows those good Jews and Christians will be in heaven and bad Muslims in hell. We are no one to pass judgment on any sect. According to this verse, all forms of faith that are sincere, we have no right to interfere. Our duty is to be tolerant within all the limits of tolerance i. e. so long as there is no oppression, injustice, and persecution. Where we can right an obvious wrong , it is our duty to do so., but it would be wrong on our part to rush in without power and authority simply because other people do not see our point of view.
When Allah has permitted so much latitude in Religion, it is ridiculous that Muslims fight in such patty matters and ignoring the most important duty of eliminating the ills of society.
Sincerely,
FARID
Assalam O Alaikum
How are you all, i just want to share some information on the topic.
The only way you can know some one is a Muslim or not is by knowing what he believes in, i.e. the faith. Aqeeda ...
The difference between a kafir and a Muslim is that both have different faiths, deeds are secondary, i.e. Ajar on good deeds and punishment on bad deeds by Allah SWT.
Brother Farid, only Muslims can enter Paradise, no christians and jews will be allowed to enter Paradise, doesn't matter how much amal saleh (good deeds) they do in their lives, Allah SWT will give them reward for their deeds in this World. Except those christians and jews who died at the time of their prophets and had believe in what they said. But after Mohammed SAW everybody has to believe in Islam and no other religion to be eligible to enter Paradise.
Compromise on religion is very dangerous, its just what the christians and jews did, they altered the message of Allah SWT and added new things. And so what we are doing now, adding new things to islam and terming as modern islam, which allows muslim women to ignore Hijab, which allows a muslim to drink alcohol, muslim men to shave their beard, do not pray, etc..
About Shiasm, it's better to find out first the difference between Shias and Sunnis, Why do they call them shias or sunnis ??? What is the difference??? Did Prophet SAW or his companions ever called themselves other than Muslim ??? So why these sects????
I would like to know what is the basic difference between these 2 sects beside following different Imams. As far as i myself is concerned i don't call myself a sunni or a shia, i just call my self a Muslim and follow Islam not shiasm or sunnism.
Assalam O Alaikum.
Abdullah,
One's beliefs & actions, i.e, Aqeeda & Amal is enough to verify what or how he/she practice Islam. There are thousands of books written throughout the history and even now exploring the differences and similarities of Shia & Sunni discipline in Islam. The scope of this topic is more than this forum can handle. I grant you that shia/sunni didn't exist at Prophet's time, but the division started right after his departure from the world. I do not your knowledge scope of Islamic history and ideaology, hence, I wouldn't say anything except that the division started on the question of Successor for Prophet. Even though Shias & Sunnis believe in One Allah, Prophet, Quran, there are many major underlying differences logically speaking in regards to different issues of Islam. If you need to know more thorough information on this subject, I would suggest the following site as one of the best referrence:
Assalam O Alaikum
Wallah i am so much disappointed to see the site you have mentioned. Inna lillahi wa inna alihi rajaoon. They are talking about doing sajda in Karbala ... shirk, this is shirk ya akhi. We cannot do sajda not even on the grave of Prophet SAW.
One more thing i found that they didn't mentioned anyone beside Prophet SAW, Ali RAA, Fatima RAA, Hasan and Hussain RAA. What about other companions of Prophet SAW. Do they know what Prophet SAW said about Abu Bakr RAA that if he were to take a khalil from the World he would have taken Abu Bakr, Sadaqa RasulAllah.
No doubt we respect all the Sahaba including Ali RAA, they were the greatest of men on the earth, but shias only repect Ali RAA why not Abu Bakr, Umer and Usman, don't they knew how much Prophet SAW loved them ???
This is ignorance, ignorance from the religion and blind faith in imams, why to follow 12 or any other no. of imams, we have Quran and sunnah of Prophet SAW, then why imams.
Wallah this is very dangerous, as Allah says in Quran that baishak shirk bohot bara Zulm hay and that Allah will forgive all sins but will not forgive shirk.
Ya akhi now a days everybody has access to Quran, translation and tafseer of Quran, Translations of Sahih bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other authentic hadith books are available everywhere, its so easy to find out whats right and whats wrong.
This is not sensible that we are fighting that Ali RAA should have been the imam, ya akhi all the sahaba were great Muslims, whats the problem if Abu Bakr was the Khalifa, Do you think he was such a man who would do any dirty politics to become Khalifa. (and who was one of the ashra mubashar).
And i will not advice anyone to visit this site.
Mr. Abdullah,
Aside from the religious prejudice, if you would like to anaylze every historical aspect of Islam in neutal and unbiased, logical way, I offer you to have discussion with me to explore all the allegations and your statements in reference to any historical or other aspect of Islam. But like I mentioned above, the prerequisite for this discussion is to have logic as the only element, no unauthenicated references or propagandas.
Dear all assalmualaikum.
Mr Abdullah, we all see that everything is very clear infront of us, The Quran and the
sunnah of prophet Muhammed PBUH. See how
stubburn is Mr Imranz that he totally ignore your last posting. He only want to focus on history, the stories about who killed the imam Ali and Hassan and Hussan (RAH) and who should become Iman again. I'm really fat up with these people (I wont label them) and
the Qadianis, no matter how educated they
are still there eyes and hearts are darkened.
May Allah talah give them hidayat. True stand
out from false very clearly and if you people
still doesnt correct yourselves then be prepared to be judged for making shirk.
Regards to all.
M. Ali
Assalam O Alaikum
You took my words brother Mohammed Ali.
Brother Imran, why we have to discuss the history or waste our precious time in knowing things which are in no way going to benefit us. Like who ever did what ever in the history will get his/her jaza.
Brother, Allah SWT, on the day of judgement will not ask you about history. What is important is that we should see are we praying or not, if yes, are our prayers according to the prayer of Prophet SAW (so that it is accepted by Allah SWT), are we doing bid'aat? (anything new added to islam which is not proved by Prophet SAW or his companions, are we doing shirk? So these things are important in Islam.
The basic reason for so many sects in Islam today is because Muslims have started following individual imams, YA AKHI, Allah SWT has told us to follow Quran and Prophet SAW and NOT Imams.
For Shia's and sunnis and everybody, we should just follow Quran and Sunnah of Prophet SAW which will surely guide us to Jannah and thats it, nothing more is required of a Muslim from Allah SWT.
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother Abdullah,
I have no problems in discussing this matter with the credentials that are most dearest to all muslims, i.e, Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad. I can discuss this matter with any reference you like to pull out. Is history one of the weaknesses for majority of Islam?? Did pious and noble persons of Islam committed unallowed/prohibited acts?? But if you are hesitant about history, No problem, we can discuss this in the light of Quran & Sunnah as well. But may I remind you that before you quote any hadith make sure its verified with the authenicated scholars of Islam who are seen respectable with scholars of both shia and sunni sects, agreed??????
As for Imams, I am sure you are aware of the fact that there are four disciplines in majority of muslims, Imam shahfii, Imam Hanubalii, Imam Hanafi, Imam Malaki, who most of muslims follow for fiqah and any religious duties?? Am I wrong???
As for bida'aat, that's a complete discussion topic in itself. If you care to hold a neutral discussion, we can proceed on it.
Mohammad Ali,
I think this message should suffice to your labeling of me as a stubborn???
[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited December 09, 1998).]
Asalaaam O Alaikum,
I have been reading these posts from Time to Time and All I see is the same thing...one person trying to prove the other wrong...which is fine. But if you believe that Shia school of thought is so wrong then that is your choice but you can't and you have NO right to label others as Non Muslims. Again and Again ONLY ALLAH IS THE JUDGE OF THAT NOT YOU NOT ME!!!
Yes we should all follow the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed and I being shia do just that but if I follow the teachings of the Imams that does not mean I am doing anything wrong. And nothing overrules the Quran and the Sunnah so To those of you like Mr Mohammed Ali and Abduallah
I don't have the slightest clue as to where you are coming up with such prejudice remarks about my Faith. Because I am only Answerable to Allah Not to people like you or the next person who begins to preach and shove their 2 cents. And Mr Mohammed Ali if you are so fed up then so be it. Just worry about what your own actions are and how You will be answerable to Allah on Judgement day and if somethings is Clear people will see it. And Mr Abbduallah posting hadiths is fine but do you honestly believe that you are a better person because all I can see is that whatever you say is what IS Right and shia beliefs are wrong and shirk this and shirk that and since I am shia I will be doomed and what not?? Well just like you I have said my 2 cents so ENOUGH of this commenting all your doing is being Bias and All I can say is God help us all follow the Straight Path. Shia, Sunni, Muslims whomever!!
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother Imran
Its not that i am hesitating in discussing history, my point is that history is somewhat immaterial and of no use. Why not discuss something which is mutually usefull to us.
Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the 2 most authentic books of ahadith, which i think the shia scholars also agree with. So lets make Quran and these two books the base for our discussions.
Sister Amina
Did i say that i am a better Muslim?? Yeh to ilzam hay mujh per. I am just discussing the aqeeda which has nothing to do with amal (deeds). As far as your aqeeda is right, bad deeds can always be forgiven by the Merciful Allah SWT, inshallah.
I would advice all to take part in the discussion i have opened as a separate thread.
Assalam O Alaikum.
Brother Abdullah,
Your opinion of history is somewhat personal, as the fact remains that whatever you have in your hands right now in form of books, hadiths, sayings etc etc, fit in the description of Historical data, of course, logically speaking..
If you want to base the discussion on Quran and two Sahih books, that is fine, although I do wanna mention that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim may be considered the error-proof books from majority of muslims, but throughou the history many many scholars have provided valid proofs to invalidate that perception. Before we start on Sahih books, or for that matter any book, as a neutral reader/critique, it is inevitable to search and find out the information about the author and how he has known by his counterparts and his character to see if there were any biased output or literature due to weakness either in his personality or cultural forces which made him unable to write the just and neutral findings. Do you agree with that???
I don't know the grasp of your knowledge in Islamic studies/history/Fiqah/Hadiths, but I can assure you that these types of discussions called , Mazakaras Aur Mounazarass, have been done many many times in recent past like few decades ago as well as way back several centuries and there have been volumes and volumes of books written on this subject, i.e, Aqeedas of Shias Versus Sunnis or Five disciplines of Islam such as Hanafi,Malaki, Shahfayii,Hanubali, Jafari.
Dear Abdullah,
Under what authority are you saying that Jews and Christians would not be allowed to enter in paradise. Are you challenging the above verse of Holy Quran? Can you substantiate your views? It is implied from your post that the above quoted verse is redundant. Your views are similar to what an average moulvi thinks in Pakistan. What ever you do on this earth from killing of innocent persons, gang rapping, corruption, usurping the rights of other people, spread racism and hatred etc.. etc.. to spreading over evils and fintna on earth, do not worry you will be entered in paradise because of your faith and aqeeda. Have you ever thought of it, the more you talk about such Islam, the more you find people committing all above sins with more intensity? Since a lot of such sinners and criminals get away with the corrupt judiciary system in Pakistan, and they believe that since they are Muslims, in the end, they will be entered in paradise. So carry on the work of Iblis. Mother Tresa who spent whole of her life in service of humanity (she did not live luxurious life.) would go to hell and the people of your faith and aqeeda who commits above evils would go to heaven. What kind of sick thinking is this? Do you know that such thinking have led us no where except disintegration and destruction.
I am not talking about compromise here. I am talking about toleration and control over false emotions. Quoting of above verse is not a compromise with Jews and Christians. It means that you are no one to judge between who would go to hell or heaven on account of his/her aqeeda and faith. It is Allah who will decide and not you, unless you think, you are superior than Allah. (Nauzbillah)
My only submission was that Sunni and Shii believe in same five pillars of Islam and they only differ in historical facts which is a minor thing. Instead of focusing on those differences and wasting energies, why not focus on common goals i. e. brother hood, tolerance, respect for each other and betterment of society. I hate the concept of "Momin Bhai or Syed" or "Sipahe Sahaba" which is purely based on hatred, prejudism, egoistic and racism, is UnIslamic and should be condemned by all.
Sincerely,
FARID
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother Farid
After Prophet SAW the religion accepted by Allah SWT is Islam and only Islam. Anyone who dies without accepting islam will not be allowed to enter Jannah.
For your knowledge, your mother terasa (if she had not accepted islam before her death) will surely go to hell. But, but i did not say that a Muslim who do a lot of sins will enter Paradise straight. Dealing with a Muslim is alone in Allah SWT's hand, He is merciful and may forgive his sins due to his only one good deed which Allah SWT likes. He is Almighty. But one more thing is in Muslims also, for Mushriks, jannah is Haram.
Brother, i am not saying things from my own, its all there in Quran and ahadith, if you would like to have some proofs, i can find it for you.
One question, What do you mean by a moulvi ?
Wa ma alaina illal balagh
Assalam O Alaikum.