Dear Abdullah,
I ask you the same question, are you saying that above verse is redundant? can you substantiate your views by quoting some authentic reference? Who gave you the assurance that all Christians and Jews would enter in hell? Is it revealed by some angel or is it your self created brain wave?
An average moulvi is programmed to certain beliefs and that is the limit after which he can not think logic or reason.....
Sincerely
FARID
Salaams Farid jee,
Shukria for pointing out some interesting realities pertaining to Islam, which we try to either over look, distort or are plain unaware of.
saaaaaaallaaaaaaaam
ok at let us see let bit of history ok well at the time of prophet there were no shias or u can say sunis also they came to existing in these names after the death of prophet..now what is created in our religion tht is not told by prophet mohammad is a sin hope u all know taht...and the other part that who ever say kalma is muslim is RIGHT but u cant be controling and puting new things in islam and call ur self muslim..to be a muslim u have to in todays socity most people beleav that if u say kalma ur are forgiven of every sin u have done and will do WRONG u ahve to complete all the five pillars of islam in order to be a muslim if u do tht according to the way the prophet told us to do then u r not a shia or sunni U AARE A MUSLIM....and this crap of sects in islam is created be british read
history plz that islamic history and the prophet also said there will be i dont remember the exact # but i think its 73 sects in islam 72 of them will go to jahanum and 1 one them in janah.
Wa_Sallaaaaaam
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother Farid
Unfortunately we the Muslims today have very limited knowledge of Islam and the worst thing is that we do not try to gain it. For example one even doesn't know why are we Muslims and what would have happened if we were not Muslims or what is the key to success in the World and the hereafter. What is the status of other religions after the Prophet hood of Mohammed SAW, etc. etc…
Brother Farid, if doing good deeds was enough, then why had Prophet SAW asked us to believe in one God, why believe in all Prophets, why believe on the day of Judgement, why believe in all the Holy Books, why believe in all the Angels. According to you, he should have told us to do good deeds ONLY, just help the poor and help everybody, give everyone his right, etc.. that's all and no need to say Prayers, no need to fast, no need to do pilgrimage as it is not helping the humanity.
""Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associate (others with Allah)-- surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things""
Can you tell me please in the above ayat where does it say that Christians and Jews will also go to Jannah. I am unable to understand your commentary of the above ayat.
But I will not say anything, because if I do, you will say I am saying from my own, I will let Quran and Sunnah deal with you.
002.131
When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
002.132
And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
003.019
Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
003.020
But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.
003.021
Surely (as for) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and slay the prophets unjustly and slay those among men who enjoin justice, announce to them a painful chastisement.
003.022
Those are they whose works shall become null in this world as well as the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.
003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
003.102
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 9, Book 92, Number 384:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)."
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 2, Book 23, Number 456:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle (PBUH) said, "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask, 'What did you use to say about this man (i.e. Muhammad)?' The faithful Believer will say, 'I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle.' Then they will say to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell Fire; Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' So he will see both his places." (Qatada said, "We were informed that his grave would be made spacious." Then Qatada went back to the narration of Anas who said a hypocrite or a non-believer will be asked, "What did you use to say about this man." He will reply, "I do not know; but I used to say what the people used to say." So they will say to him, "Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran)." Then he will be hit with iron hammers once, that he will send such a cry as everything near to him will hear, except Jinns and human beings.
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And there are many many other proofs available, but I thought these are more than enough. I hope my brother will not have any doubt in his mind now.
May Allah enable us all to understand His religion.
Wa ma alaina illalbalagh
Assalam O Alaikum
Dear Abdullah,
Because of the time limitation, I would answer your post on week end (Inshallah). However, briefly, I must repeat again, according to above verse it is Allah who will decide on the day of judgment, you are no one to decide their fate.
If you offer five times prayers, keeping fasts, going to Haj, etc and commit above crimes it means that you are deceiving Allah (Nauzbillah), yourself and people around you. Islam does not emphasize only on prayers but also on good deeds otherwise you are a hypocrite and your prayers are meaningless rituals.
Jews and Christians also believe in God. You have already quoted verse about prophet Abraham the fountain head of three main religions i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Sincerely,
FARID
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother I think due to time limitation you were unable to read my previous post, if you have, then do you disagree with all the ayats and ahadiths ???
Again I am no one to judge between anybody i am just copying / pasting from Quran and Hadith, i am not saying a word because you don't believe me.
Assalam O Alaikum.
Dear Abdullah,
First of all let me clerify that my views are aimed at tolerance, brotherhood, respect for each other, focus on common goals rather than on patty differences among different sects of Islam. Above verse was just an example of tolerance and understanding. It was not my intention to have a compromise what you are talking about. The direction of discussion was changed by your apprehensions. You left me no choice to clear certain things which you have said in your posts and which creates more confusion in the mind of average Muslim like me.
I have already read your post thoroughly. From where you got the idea that I have not read your remarks? Usually I avoid long posts but sometimes people leave me no choice but to give answer in detail, which is a time consuming job. Though I consider answering your queries was important but there are other things which require more attention. Here are my parawise remarks:
Average Muslim has sufficient knowledge of Islam to live a good Muslim life. Which knowledge are you talking about? Is it not understanding and practicing of basic principles enough? I am a Muslim because I was born to a Muslim parents. Had I born to Christian or Jew parents I would have been either Christian or Jew. Believe me If you would have born in Christian family, you would have been a champion of Christianity!!! To day Christians and Jews rule the world. Chinese, Bhudists, and believers of other religions have gone far ahead then Muslims. They are much better position than Muslims. They are successful in this life, and who knows many of them may also be successful in the hereafter.
Prophet Muhammad not only emphasized on prayers but also stressed on how to live as a good Muslim. He was a role model for all the Muslims, to follow his foot steps. I think good deeds have same priority as prayers. Prayers are just for satisfaction of your conscious and for enhancement of your spirituality. This is more personal. But on the other hand good deeds not only affect you but also people around you. You have heard the famous saying "One good deed deserves another". This is 21st Century. You can not pursue people with failure theories and practices. Time has come to abandon the out dated practice of fooling the people by repeating stereo type remarks on Islam. You know and every one knows that, that kind of Islam has totally failed particularly in Pakistan. The more you talk about such kind Islam in Pakistan, more you would see heinous crimes committed by people living there. Why is it so? Is it not the reason what I have given in my earlier post.
The above ayat also does not say that all Christians and Jews will ultimately land in hell. Mind you this was not the commentary, it was actual word by word translation in English. You still owe me the answer about the validity of that verse.
002.131 This verse was addressed to Prophet Abraham. I have already said that Prophet Abraham was the fountain head of three main religions on earth. In a way Islam includes all the three religions.
002.132 Same remarks as above.
003.19 This verse is addressed to people of Book who disputed with Prophet Muhammad. But also this verse never said that they would not enter in paradise.
003.20 Same remarks as above
003.21 This verse is universally applicable to every one irrespect of any religion.
003.22 Same as above.
003.85 Verses 002.131 and 132 tell us that Islam was practiced by people a long time before Prophet Mohammad. However he gave the final shape during his life time.
003.102 Translation of this verse given by you, is incomplete and ambiguous. Word by word translation in English is as under: (Abdullah Yousaf Ali)
" O ye who believe, fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam".
Fear is of many kinds: 1) the abject fear of the coward 2)the fear of a child or an inexperienced person in the face on an unknown danger 3)the fear of reasonable man who wishes to avoid harm to himself or to people whom he wishes to protect 4) the reverence which is akin to love, for it fears to do anything which is not pleasing to the object of love. The first is unworthy of man, the second is necessary for one spiritually immature, the third is a manly precaution against evil as long as it is unconquered and the fourth is the seed-bed of righteousness. Those mature in faith cultivate the fourth. At earlier stages, the third or the second may be necessary, they are fear, but not the fear of Allah. The first is a feeling of which any one should be ashamed. Our whole being should be permeated with Islam, it is not mere veneer or outward show.
I do not want to challenge the Hadith you have mentioned in your post but I have lot of apprehensions about the validity of Hdith due to following reasons:
2.Different sects have different set of Hadith to practice and many of them negate one an other. People practicing these consider to be authentic and declaring others as false. You will never know who is correct and who is wrong.
When ever I find such kind of questions, I usually seek answer in Holy Quraan. If I find the answer, I take it as authentic.
I do not seek the answers in Hadith or other books because of their authenticity and written by some one with biased thinking. I am thankful to Allah that he has given me the faculty of judging right from wrong.
However thanks for providing information on complex subject matter.
Sincerely,
FARID M
Dear Ms. Rubiya Nur,
Thanks for the compliments. May Allah increase our understanding and practicing of basic principles of Islam. Amen.
Sincerely,
FARID M
Assalam O Alaikum
Our basic discussion was that whether Non-Muslims will go to jannah or not, but you have diverted it into a discussion of good deeds and bad deeds which was never the part of my discussion. It is clear to everyone that good deeds are as important as faith but dear my point was first is faith and then deeds. Without the right faith, good deeds are immaterial.
You have very cleverly diverted the meaning of the ayats and rejected all the ahadiths (which were taken from Sahih Bukhari) and now I don't think any evidence or proof will work. Who are you to declare a hadith unauthentic, you do not have the knowledge to do so. The big scholars of Islam have all agreed on the authenticity of Sahih Bukhari. Don't do act like an Ahmedis or Ismailis that believe in what ever suit them, they changed the meaning of Quran and rejected the authentic ahadiths.
Now I want to challenge your brain and common sense, lets see if it works, please answer the following:
If only good deeds can be good enough, why Allah SWT and Prophet Mohammed SAW has given so much important to faith ?
Do you think a person who is a Mushrik (I hope you understand what a Mushrik is) (for your information all Christians and Jews are Mushrik) will enter Paradise?
U said
""They are successful in this life, and who knows many of them may also be successful in the hereafter""
Brother Farid, if you are so unclear and confused about your own faith then I don't know where Islam stands in your heart. Your conversation gives an idea that you do not think Islam is the best religion, to you only and only good deeds are important, whether it is done by a Hindu by a Christian a Jew or a Buddhist, doesn't matter.
The reason why Islam is down today is because of those people who fail to understand the importance of Islam and adopt morals and values from other religion. Muslims are the worst nation today because they are not practicing Islam. Tell me where in the World Islam is practiced today. When Islam was practiced the whole world was ruled by them, and when they stopped practicing it, their downfall started. This does not mean that other religions are correct or other nations are better than Muslims (Muslims not us).
I think the below will be understandable to you and you will not reject the translation :
022.050
YUSUFALI: "Those who believe and work righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
PICKTHAL: Those who believe and do good works, for them is pardon and a rich provision;
SHAKIR: Then (as for) those who believe and do good, they shall have forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.
022.051
YUSUFALI: "But those who strive against Our Signs, to frustrate them,- they will be Companions of the Fire."
PICKTHAL: While those who strive to thwart Our revelations, such are rightful owners of the Fire.
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who strive to oppose Our communications, they shall be the inmates of the flaming fire.
Wa ma alaina illalbalagh
Assalam O Alaikum
This discussion seems to be endless, because of different thinking levels.
According to above verse, yes they can be entered in paradise. You have no right to declare their fate in the here after.
How the Jews are mushrik ? I think they also believe in unity of God. However there are different sects of Christians whom you can say Mushrik. But some sects also believe in Unity of God.
It is my right to praise good human beings irrespect of religion, cast or creed. You have no right to advise me to change my religion. Please keep this advise to your self.
I say faith is meaningless without good deeds. In other words faith and good deeds are the two faces of same coin. You can not ignore any one at the cost of other. Without faith you are unbeliever and without good deeds with faith, you are a hypocrite. You know how the hypocracy have been severely condemned in Holy Quraan.
I think Hadith is the main reason for creating different sects in Islam. Every sect believes that they are on the right side. For me basics are more important than details. When you failed to practice the basics of Islam what is the fun of going in to details and wasting you time and energy. I stand by my opinion about Hadith, whether you like it or not.
You said, nowhere on earth "actual Islam" is being practiced. Who has stopped the people to practice the "actual Islam". It is not the same to say that your kind of Islam is not practicable????
I have clearly understood your views and you have mine. It is better to stop this discussion here because it is going no where. However I am again thankful for your contribution on the subject matter.
Sincerely,
FARID M
[This message has been edited by Farid (edited December 20, 1998).]
Assalam O Alaikum
Brother Farid
This is the last message I am posting in this thread, because I think you lack the ability to understand the open signs in the Quran and further discussion will be a waste of time for me. As a last effort I am presenting some ayats from Quran, if you understand that, it will be reward for me, if not then may Allah SWT guide you and me and all of us on the right path.
004.013
YUSUFALI: Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.
PICKTHAL: These are the limits (imposed by) Allah. Whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow, where such will dwell for ever. That will be the great success.
SHAKIR: These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.
004.014
YUSUFALI: But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.
PICKTHAL: And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom.
SHAKIR: And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement.
003.131
YUSUFALI: Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith:
PICKTHAL: And ward off (from yourselves) the Fire prepared for disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers.
003.132
YUSUFALI: And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.
PICKTHAL: And obey Allah and the messenger, that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
040.049
YUSUFALI: Those in the Fire will say to the Keepers of Hell: "Pray to your Lord to lighten us the Penalty for a day (at least)!"
PICKTHAL: And those in the Fire say unto the guards of hell: Entreat your Lord that He relieve us of a day of the torment.
SHAKIR: And those who are in the fire shall say to the keepers of hell: Call upon your Lord that He may lighten to us one day of the punishment.
040.050
YUSUFALI: They will say: "Did there not come to you your messengers with Clear Signs?" They will say, "Yes". They will reply, "Then pray (as ye like)! But the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile wandering) in (mazes of) error!"
PICKTHAL: They say: Came not your messengers unto you with clear proofs? They say: Yea, verily. They say: Then do ye pray, although the prayer of disbelievers is in vain.
SHAKIR: They shall say: Did not your messengers come to you with clear arguments? They shall say: Yea. They shall say: Then call. And the call of the unbelievers is only in error.
040.051
YUSUFALI: We will, without doubt, help our messengers and those who believe, (both) in this world's life and on the Day when the Witnesses will stand forth,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! We verily do help Our messengers, and those who believe, in the life of the world and on the day when the witnesses arise,
SHAKIR: Most surely We help Our messengers, and those who believe, in this world's life and on the day when the witnesses shall stand
As far as status of Christians and Jews is concerned, they are KAFIR, because they do not believe in Quran and Prophet Mohammed SAW. Plus they are Mushrik because, Christians consider Hazrat Eisa, as God or son of God and Jews consider Hazrat Uzair as God or son of God.
Dear Farid i don't know how to play with words like you, but in straight words your believe that these Christians and Jews of today can go to Jannah is wrong. Ofcourse i am not telling you to believe me , i am just forwarding to you the message of Allah SWT.
Wa ma alaina ilalbalagh
Assalam O Alaikum.
Well, everyone thanks for your input. Seems like everyone here is alreay predisposed to a set of beliefs. I encourage all of you to do more research on this topic and open your minds to factual data that you may be ignorant of.
Hello Everyone!
Well I read the discussion completely.. & I found necessary to
say something... coz maybe I want to stop this topic.
First of all let me clear that THE ONLY PERSON I FOUND
WRONG here is just FATIMA... Now I like to advice those people
who are happy with my statement that Please do not read on coz
it might hurt you or u may not understand!
Listen sister:
These all majalis, jaalloos, silsalla-e-azadari, tawallah & tabarrah
are the right of Islam in the way of Islam.
We base our belief on Masoom (infallible) who is MINALLAH (from
God) for eg. Hazrat Issa by Quran who declare himself as a Prophet
been just 3 days. (The one who is MASOOM does not have the
limitations of age & exprience.) The same is our belief for the chain
of Masoomeens from Adam till Hazrat Mehdi (A.S).
For All the People who are muslims, we do not call anyone Kafir
because we are the followers of Quran which has Surah-e-Munafikoon
with details.
HAQ is that,
" Rassol (SAWW) said " Ali aap se mohabaat nahin rakhe ga magar
wo jis ki waladat main taharat ho gi, Aur Ali tuj se dushmani nahin
rakhe ga magar wo gis ki waladat main khabassat ho gi"
Islam ke daman main aur is ke siwa kiya hai
Ik zaarb-e-yadullahi, Ik sajda-e-shabiri. (BY ALLAMA IQBAL)
I came here by chance & saw this unethical discussion its the RIGHT
answer so according to ethics it must finish now.
New Question;
According to current Caliber of these group...
What is Islam?