BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER sunnism vs shiasm

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Fatima : Just read these ahadith from Sahih Bukhari, i hope shias do believe in Sahih bukhari. :-

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 6: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Allah's Apostle addressed the people saying, "Allah has given option to a slave to choose this world or what is with Him. The slave has chosen what is with Allah." Abu Bakr wept, and we were astonished at his weeping caused by what the Prophet mentioned as to a Slave ( of Allah) who had been offered a choice, (we learned later on) that Allah's Apostle himself was the person who was given the choice, and that Abu Bakr knew best of all of us. Allah's Apostle added, "The person who has favored me most of all both with his company and wealth, is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a Khalil other than my Lord, I would have taken Abu Bakr as such, but (what relates us) is the Islamic brotherhood and friendliness. All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7: Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle . We used to regard Abu Bakr as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman .

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 8: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion (in Islam)."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11: Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:
A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again. She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" The Prophet said, "If you should not find me, go to Abu Bakr."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14: Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As:
The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " 'Aisha." I asked, "Among the men?" He said, "Her father." I said, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 16: Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "While I was sleeping, I saw myself standing at a well, on it there was a bucket. I drew water from the well as much as Allah wished. Then Ibn Abi Quhafa (i.e. Abu Bakr) took the bucket from me and brought out one or two buckets (of water) and there was weakness in his drawing the water. May Allah forgive his weakness for him. Then the bucket turned into a very big one and Ibn Al-Khattab took it over and I had never seen such a mighty person amongst the people as him in performing such hard work, till the people drank to their satisfaction and watered their camels that knelt down there."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 22: Narrated Abu Said:
The Prophet said, "Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 42: Narrated Abu Musa:
While I was with the Prophet in one of the gardens of Medina, a man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings that he will enter Paradise." I opened (the gate) for him, and behold! It was Abu Bakr. I informed him of the glad tidings the Prophet had said, and he praised Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me "Open (the gate) and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise." I opened (the gate) for him, and behold! It was 'Umar. I informed him of what the Prophet had said, and he praised Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me. "Open (the gate) for him and inform him of the glad tidings, of entering Paradise with a calamity which will befall him. " Behold ! It was 'Uthman, I informed him of what Allah's Apostle had said. He praised Allah and said, "I seek Allah's Aid."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 93: Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
I saw Abu Bakr carrying Al-Hasan and saying, "Let my father be sacrificed for you; you resemble the Prophet and not 'Ali," while 'Ali was laughing at this.

22

All these ahadith are to show how great these sahaba were. One more thing for u to note, Abu Bakr(R.A.A), Umer (R.A.A.), Uthman (R.A.A.) and Ali (R.A.A.) all are among the ashra mubashar, i.e. the sahaba to whome Muhammed (PBUH) told they will go to jannah in their lives.

23

Assalam alaikum

Fatima,

In your ignorance you have insulted the four rightly guided khaleefs.

The Prophet (S.A.W.) said that if there was another prophet after him it would be Hadhrat Umar (R.A.)

Brother Niaz has provided sahih hadith so read them and understand.

Assalam alaikum

24

(i'm neither a sunni noe a shia, and chances are that i'll be neutral in the dscussion)

peace be upon you!

I have a few people who work hard to make people aware of the truth of islam, to spread islam in the world, and to increase the circle of islam.. but Niaz is one of the many persons i have seen, who works hard to get people out of islam! It seems like he wants to get as many people as he can out of the circle of islam.
jahaan Muhammad, peace be upon him, nay apnee saree zindagi logon ko musalmaan kernay main laga dee.. wahaan unhee kee ummat main say aisay log bhee hain, jin ka maksad logon ko kaafir kerna, aur islam main say nikaalna hai.
is koshish main yeh itnaa josh khaatay hain, kay such aur jhoot, haqeeqat aur afsana, insaaf aur bay-insaafi, kee koi tameez in main baki nahee rehtee, yahaan tuk kay aam log jab tasweer ka aik hee rukh dekh dekh ker in kee jhoot kee takraar ko sun sun ker in kee baat per such ka gumaan kernay lagtay hain, to baki maulvi bhee in kee baat kee takleed per majboor ho jaatay hain.. takay kaheen un kee khamoshi un ko ''jehaad'' kay hak say mehroom na ker day!
as for their personal knowledge, it is nill! those posts are also present on this forum where niaz bhai said Ahmadis perform hajj in rabwah! such is the condition of their personal knowledge about the other sects!

aik baat jo mujhay niaz bhai say samajhnee hai, woh yeh hai, kay:

i) if according to your mullah,shias are not muslims, then what is their religion??

ii) Will your mullah decide the religion of shias? or do the shias have the right to decide their own religion?

iii) if your mullah is the decider of what religion shias have, will the shias not have any right to refuse to accept the religion you are thrusting upon them?

Niaz bhai, islaam aap kay maulvi kee jageer nahee kay jisay chahey muslim bana dia, or jisey chahe kaafir! is baat ka haq siraf allah ko hai kay woh decide keray kay kon mulim hai aur kon kaafir. aap ko koi hak nahee pohonchta kay kisi ko kaafir bolain! aap kyoon bhool jaatay hain kay khuda ahkamul-hakimeen hee is baat per decide ker saktaa hai kay kon muslim hai? aap kyoon allah kay kaam main dakhal detay ho? kyoon khauf-e-khuda nahee kertay?

First of all, you have given very weak points in saying that shias are kaafirs.

1)---- Azaan, and the way of prayer ----

The kalima is the identity of a muslim! In the kalima, in the iman-e-mujamil, in the iman-e-mufassil, there is no referrence to the azaan!
All ulema had come to a conclusion, that according to the koran, following things are the "iman"
i) iman on allah, toheed
ii) iman on his prophets
iii) iman on his angels
iv) iman on the books
v) iman on kayamat
vi) iman that all the good and bad is from allah.

these things do not include azaan. though koran has reffered to azaan, but it does not tell us they way to say it!
yes it is seen in the hadith how to say azaan, but this thing is debatable whether that hadith is sahih or zaeef. the above mentioned components of islam do not mention hadith as a part of iman, and above all, koran does not mention hadith to be a part of iman, thus how to say azaan is NOT related to whether somone is a muslim or not, and changing the words of azaan can not be regarded as unislamic.
similarly, koran also DOES NOT mention 'the way' of saying prayers! it is again and again written in the koran, that muslims should perform prayer, but it is not even once mentioned, that "how" muslims should perform namaaz!
thus, although u CAN say that their way of prayer is against the hadith (which u consider sahih) , but u CAN NOT say that they are "kaafirs" !

2)---- Shirk, and 'YA'

Yes it IS said in the koran that mushrik will not be forgiven, but it IS NOT mentioned in the koran that the one who uses "YA" for dead person is a mushrik! in islam, deeds are based on intentions. if all shias believe it with words, as well as in hearts, that there in no other god than Allah! then your mullah has NO right to call them a mushrik!
allah dilon ka haal jaanta hai.. us ko pata hai ke kon allah kee toheed per iman rakhta hai, aur kon nahee. lihaza is baat ka faisla siraf wohi ker sakta hai! mujhay ya aap ko dil kee baat maloom nahee ho saktee, is liye we have NO right to call someone a mushrik !

Ab aap kabristaan main jaane kee duwaa yaad karain:

"Assalaamo alaikum YA ehl-il-kaboor..!!!!!!

HERE THE WORD "YA" IS USED FOR DEAD PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SAYING THIS DUWAA IS ALSO A SHIRK??????????? ACCORDING TO YOU "BOGUS" FORMULA OF SHIRK, THIS DUWA IS ALSO SHIRK, THUS YOU ME, AND ALL THE MUSLIMS OF THE WORLD ARE MUSHRIKEEN!!!!!!!!
MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM, ALSO SAID THIS DUWAAAA!!!!!!!
ACCORDING TO YOUR SATANIC FORMULA OF SHIRK, THE ONE WHO USES "YA" FOR THE DEAD IS MUSHRIK, THEN THIS MEANS U SAY THAT MUHAMMAD, PEACE BE UPON HIM, IS ALSO MUSHRIK (NAOOZOBILLAH!)

LOOK AT WHERE YOU STAND! YOU ARE SO MUCH WANTING TO DECLARE EVERYBODY KAAFIR, THAT IN DOING THAT, YOU HAVE ALSO CALLED MUHAMMAD RASOOLULLAH, A KAAFIR.. YOU HAVE LOST THE FEAR OF ALLAH FROM YOUR HEART! YOU ARE PRODUCING THAT KIND OF LOGIC, WHICH IS SHAMEFUL, AND CAN NOT BE CALLED A LOGIC IN FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!

KISI KO KAAFIR KEHNAY WAALAY, PEHLAY KHOOD TO KHUDAA KA KHAUF KER! APNEE BAATAIN BOLNAY SAY PEHLAY SOCHA TO KERO, KAY YEH MAIN KYAA BOL RAHA HOON!!

The above point of mine clearly depicts how much brains you have got! i thought you to be a wiser person than that!

aap ko yeh baat kernay kee jurrat kaisay huwee, kay murda aadmi ko "ya" kehna shirk hai?? jab kay aap khood yeh shirk kertay hain, each time u go to a kabristaan.

IF you really talk about mushrikeen, then christians are there, why dont u go and preach the chritians about the truth they dont know?? those who are the real mishrikeens, you need to teach them, instead of adding ALL the muslims into mushrikeens!! jo nahee hain, un ko to kehtay ho, magar jo hain, aur saabit hai un kee zubaan say, kay woh hain, un ko kyoon islaam nahee sikhatay??

===================

ab niaz bhai aap apnay aap pay pehlay nazar daalain!
aap nay jo baatain kee hain, un per ghaur karain!

aap had say tajaawaz ker rahe hain... aur itnee baybaki dikhaa rahain hain jhoot bolnay main... darain khuda say kay us kee laathi bay-awaaz hotee hai.. aur daawat na dain us ka ghazab ko, kay jab woh naraaz ho jaata hai to insaan ka kuch nahee reh jaata! na duniya, aur na aakhrat!

aap apnee hadood say 2 tarah say tajawaz ker rahe hain:

i) allah kee nafarmani
Jis baat kee khabar siraf khuda ko hai, aur us nay aap ko un baaton kee khabar nahee dee, aap kaisay keh rahe hain kay aap ko un kee khabar hai??? is tarah to aap khudai kaa dawaaa ker rahe hain!! aap nay yeh baat kabhee sochee hai?? jab aap nay us baat ko kitnay yakeen say kaha, jis kee khabar siraf khuda ko hai, to us wakat aap ko allah say der na laga??? aap ko khauf na aaya, kay kayamat kay din aap allah ko kyaa jawaab dain gay???

ii) Muhammad kee nafarmani
aik sahabi aik kafir ko aik ghazwa main katal kernay lagay.. mot ko samnay dekh ker us nay dur kay kalma parh liyaa, magar sahabi nay us ko katal ker diyaa.. Jab hazrat muhammad ko is baat kee khabar punchi, to aap buhut ziada naraaz huwe aur farmaya kay tum nay kyoon aik musalman ko katal kiya? sahabi na arz ki, ya rasoolallah, woh musamlman nahee tha, us nay kalma siraf mot kay dur say parha, rasoolullah nay farmaya, tujhay kaisay pata hai? kyaa too nay us ka dil phaar kay under say dekhaa tha??
jab Muhammad nay aik baat kee ijazat nahee dee, na khood kabhee woh baat kee, phir aap kon hotay hain???? aap ko yeh kaisay jurrat huwee kay aap nay kisi kay dil ka haal jannay ka daawa kiya? ya kisi ko kafir kehnay kee jurrat kee, jab kay woh kalma parhta ho? rasoolullah nay jab khood us aadmi ko musalman kahaa jis nay kalma parha, phir aap kon hain?? aap apnay aap ko rasoolullah say afzal samajhtay hain???
zara khudaa ka khauf karain..us kay azaab say derain.... toba kerain toba!

main aap ko pehlay bhee baar baar aik hadith ka referrence day chuka hoon, jis main Muhammad, peace be upon him, nay farmaya,
"kalma-go ko kaafir kehnay waala khood kaafir hai!"

yeh hadith main nay aap ko pehlay bhee dee hai, magar aap nay hameshaa is ko ignore kiyaa hai!!! agar aap main zara saa bhee allah ka khauf hai, zara see bhee ager rasoolullah kee muhabbat aap kay dil main hai, to jo hadith main nay aap ko dee hai is pay ghaur kerain, aur dekhain kay aap jo doosron ko kafir kehtay hai, aap kay baray main rasoolallah ka kyaa farmaan hai!!

25

Assalam O Alaikum

Someone else....I have read your post and am glad to learn that there are educated people like you who can still hold an objective view on this issue. As for Niaz he is just bent upon proving his closed minded opinion about shia's not being muslims or maybe any other religion which does not fit his description.
It takes one a lifetime to understand and follow their religion but Niaz has taken some sort of crash course on shia beliefs for he does not know what is in ones hearts and mind and thus has a very superficial view. I just hope we all can learn from each other and not come to a point where we use religion as a an avenue to make one feel superior over another.

26

Hi Everyone,

Someone else, shayad duniya ka ilm tumharay paas hoga, lakin jahan tak deen ka ilm hay, tum jahil ho, pakkay JAHIL. And that is one of the reason of u'r being Qadiyaani. Mujhay kafir sabit kernay walay, zara yeh ghaur say parho

"Farid bhai, u know who is a muslim and who is not, ok well we can't say that as we are not God and we cannot see wat is in the heart of ppls, as the faith is from the heart. So we see the faith and the believe a sect has"

This msg was sent by me on 16/9/98. Just see in the beginning of the thread.

Ab kia kaho gaay, I didn't say I can look in someone's heart, did I????, to phir mujh per itna bara ilzam kiyoon. I had always said, a person is considered muslim or non muslim according to his faith. Now I am not telling a particular person Kafir, I am saying who ever has such kind of faith, then it is wrong or is kafir. For example, if I say who ever does not believe in Muhammed (PBUH) is kafir, will u object this also, as I cannot see in the heart of the people. ?????, So we always talk on the basis of Aqayad.
Now u also told me that i try to separate muslims from islam, and try hard to get people out of islam. Now what ever u said is very much fit on u, have u looked into my heart??? or do u know wat is in my heart????.

Now coming to your own statement, that in a hadith it is stated that on the day of resurrection only one out of 73 sects will go in jannah, Now, just tell me All of them will be kalima sayer, then why will they go in hell. HAAAN, ANSWER ME, JAHIL INSAN. Now tell me if the 72 sect are kalima sayers WHY WILL THEY GO IN HELL. OR will u say this hadith is also zaeef which u only stated.

Surah Nisa - Ayat 65
Fala wa rabbika …. yusallaymu tasleema.
Ay paighambar (sallalahu alaihay wassallam) teray parwardigar ki kasam (Allah SWT khud apni kasam khata hay) woh momen na hongay jab tak apnay jhagroon ka faisla tujh say na karaeen. Phir teray faislay say un key diloon main kuch udasi na ho aur khusi khushi man ker manzoor na kerlain.

Ab tum ney jo hadith bataee thee, kalima sayer wali, to allah key banday, us main jo likha hay "kalima kehnay wala" us say murad sirf yeh nahin key La ilaha illallah Mohammed(PBUH) urrasoolullah keh dia aur bas.

Kalima to aap ka Amitab bachan bhi film main keh daita hay, kia aap us ko bhi musalman manaaingaay. Aur agar kalima kehnay say murad sirf kalima kehna he hota to Abu jahal bhi kalima keh daita.

SHIRK: Shirk ka matlab Allah SWT ki sifaat / ausaaf main kisi ko shareek kerna.
Someone else, I thought u were good at understanding Arabi. But now, I think u don't even know a word. For your kind information Ya arabi ka lafz hay, jo key mukhatib kernay key liay istimaal hota hay. E.g. Jab kisi ko bulatay hain to kehtay hain ya fulan, aur yeh hazir key liay istimaal hota hay, misal key tor per jo insan ya shakhs meray samney nahin main usay nahin bula sakta hoon.

Jahan tak Assalam O Alaikum ya ahalilquboor ka sawal hay, to Jahil insan, hum qabaristan ja ker yeh alfaz istimaal kertay hain, ghar main baithay nahin boltay, us waqt boltay hain jub qabrain hamaray samney hotee hain. YA KA LAFZ SIRF HAZIR KEY LIAY ISTIMAL HOTA HAY.

Mainey jo kaha tha key murda key liay ya ka lafz nahin istimaal kerna chahiaay to us main yehe wajah hay, Misal key tor per agar main Pakistan main baithay kisi aisay admi ko pukaroon jo key America main hay to yeh mere bewaqoofi hogee. Isi tarah Ya Muhammed (PBUH) , YA ALI (R.A.A) wagaira kehna bhi ghalat hay, aur shirk hay kiyon key hamara yeh aqeeda hay key humain sirf Allah SWT sun sakta hay, aur agar aap yeh samghain key humain Muhammed (PBUH) ya Ali (R.A.A) ya koi baba, ya murshid ya pir faqeer bhi sun sakta hay to yeh 100% SHIRK hay.

Kisi Arabi Daan say pooch lo aap ko Ya lafz ka istimaal bata dayga. Us key ilawa agar kisi ka yeh aqeeda hay key Allah SWT key siwa bhi koi insan (jo faut ho chuka ho) hamaree faryad sun sakta hay aur madad kersakta hay to yeh sirf aur sirf SHIRK hay.

Ab tumharay points key mainey Allah SWT aur Muhammed Sallalahualaihay wasallam ki nafarmaani ki. Main apnay aap ko Allah SWT ka eik gunah gar banda samaghta hoon. Lakin agar aap yeh kaho key mainey yeh sab bol ker Allah SWT ki nafarmani aur Muhammed (PBUH) ki nafarmaani ki hay to phir bas Allah SWT he aap say poochay ga.

Aaj mujhay aap logon key comments sun ker jitna dukh dua hay, main nahin bata sakta, Allah ki kasam jiss key qabzay main mere jaan hay, mainey kabhi yeh koshish nahin ki key main kisi key mazhab ki toheen karoon. Mera maqsad sirf yeh tha key Aap logon key amal sirf thori si ghaltion ki wajah say na zayah ho jaeen. Aur aap logon ney mere knowledge say ziada mere zaat ko nishana banaya hay. Khair, agar aap log phir bhi yeh chahtay hain key main yahan kuch na likha karoon to main nahin likhoonga.

Wa ma alaina illalbalagh.

27

peace!

Amina,

some words from you that we all need to understand:
''' I just hope we all can learn from each other and not come to a point where we use religion as a an avenue to make one feel superior over another. '''
its a good feeling to know there are still some people like you among us, and i do think we certainly need more posts from you around here. God bless you!

Niaz bhai,

maulvi sahab, aap ka sab say bara problem pata hai kyaa hai? aap baat kernay say pehlay sochtay bilkul nahee! yeh problem to kher saare maulvis kay saath hee hota hai!

hmmm... well lets get straight to the point:

maulvi sahab farmatay hain..
'''Someone else, shayad duniya ka ilm tumharay paas hoga, lakin jahan tak deen ka ilm hay, tum jahil ho, pakkay JAHIL. And that is one of the reason of u'r being Qadiyaani. '''

haan to maulvi sahab, yahaa Qadiyaniyat kahaan say aa gayee?? us post main aap kee haalat kafee kharaab hai, wahaan par sub dekh rahe hain kay aap kaisay mere buhut strong points lagataar ignore ker detay hain! wahaan to aap ko jawaab nahee aatay, yahaan kyoon itnee Ahmadiyyat yaad aa rahee hai aap ko? us post main dekhain ja kay, aap kay naye message main jo aap nay mere points ignore kiya hain, woh bhee saaf nazar aate hain! aap aik discussion ko doosri say naa millaain logic say baat kerain, logic say!

Maulvi sahab, aik baat zara ghaur say sunain...main nay kabhee aap ko kafir nahee kaha, aur na hee mera deen mujhay is baat kee ijazat detaa hai, aap apnee hee baaton say khood ko kaafir kernay pay tulay huwe hain, to mera ya kisi aur ka kyaa kasur hai?

haan, aagay farmatay hain janaab, kay:
'''Farid bhai, u know who is a muslim and who is not, ok well we can't say that as we are not God and we cannot see wat is in the heart of ppls, as the faith is from the heart. So we see the faith and the believe a sect has"'

haan yeh jo aap nay baat byaan farmai hai, is baat kay baaray main bhee main aap say pooch guch keroon ga, kay yeh aap nay kon see hadith main say nikaali hai! zara thehr jaain maulvi sahab, saaray points pay baat ho gee.. main aap ke tarah nahee kay jis baat pay laajawaab huwe us ko siray say ignore hee ker diya!

pehlay zaraa ''assalaamoalaikum ya ehl-ilkaboor'' pay baat ho jaye...

dekho maulvi sahab, aap ka yeh point hai, kay jis nay murray huwe kay liye YA kahaa woh mushrik!
phir kehtay ho, is duwa main hum kabristaan main mojood hotay hain... yaar aap khuchain kyoon maartay ho?
aap kabristaan to kyaa, kabar khod ker us kay under ghuss jao, aur phir bhee YA kahoo, to KOI MURDAA AAP KO NAHEE SUNAY GA!!!!!!!!!!! agar aap kehtay ho kay sunay ga, to phir aap nay bola, ''MARAA HUWAA AADMI BAAT SUNAY GA! ''' phir aap kyaa huwe??????????? MUSHRIK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! aur aap APNAY HEE FORMULA SAY MUSHRIK KARAAR PAI!!!!
aap farmatay hain,
''''kiyon key hamara yeh aqeeda hay key humain sirf Allah SWT sun sakta hay, aur agar aap yeh samghain key humain Muhammed (PBUH) ya Ali (R.A.A) ya koi baba, ya murshid ya pir faqeer bhi sun sakta hay to yeh 100% SHIRK hay. '''

to jab aap ka aqeeda kehtaa hai kay KOI wafaat shuda aadmi hamaree baat nahee sun saktaa.. to phir aap kabristaan bhee chalay jaain, wahaan bhee to wafaat shudaa aadmi hain.. woh kaisay aap kee baat sun rahe hai? yaar allah say dero.. yeh ajeebo ghareeb logic na pesh kero, jis ka na sur hai na per!!

abhee aap pehlay yeh irshaad mulahza farmain,
'''Now coming to your own statement, that in a hadith it is stated that on the day of resurrection only one out of 73 sects will go in jannah, Now, just tell me All of them will be kalima sayer, then why will they go in hell. HAAAN, ANSWER ME, JAHIL INSAN. Now tell me if the 72 sect are kalima sayers WHY WILL THEY GO IN HELL. OR will u say this hadith is also zaeef which u only stated. '''

wah jee wah, yeh pehlaa aadmi dekhaa hai jo saath to jahil kehtaa hai, aur saath hee sawaal ka jawaab bhee mujh hee say mangta hai... to jawaab haazir hai... yeh jawaab purh kay yeh baat sab ko maloom ho jaye gee, kay kon jahil hai, aur kis pay allah ka fazal hai!
to janaab-e-aali, arz hai, kay is forum main yeh riwaaj hai, kay jab koi kisi ko quote keray, to us kay EXACT words copy keray, jaisay kay main nay kiye hain!! phir aap nay yeh apnay hee alfaaz main meri baat kyoon kahee?? taake jhoot shaamil ker sakain??

yeh meraa challenge hai, kay agar jo alfaaz aap nay quote kiye hain, woh meree kisi post main dhoond kay dikhaa dain, agar na dikhaa sakay to aap jhootay saabit ho jaain gay! aur jhootay per allah ka azaab hota hai.

yeh baat to hadeeth main dekhee hai, kay 73 sects hoon gay, jin main say 1 sacha ho ga, aur baaki jhootay, ... yeh baat to hadith main nazar aayee thee, magar JANAT & DOZAKH ka is hadith main main nay KOI zikar NAHEE dekhaa, aur naa hee main nay aisee koi baat is forum main kihee, kay kon jannat main jaye aur kon dozakh main! meraa deen mujhay yeh sikhaata hai, kay is baat ka faisla siraf Allah karay ga, kay kon jannat main jaye, aur kon dozakh main.. lihaza main saaree zindagi yeh jurrat nahee ker sakta, kay main kisi ko yeh boloon, kay falaan shaks ya firka jannati hai aur falaan dozakhi!
abhee to aap nay mujhay JAHIL bola hai, aur aik jaahil ko bhee pata hai, kay jannat aur dozakh ka ta'aluq insaan kay ZAATI amaal say hota hai... kayamat kay din allah firkon kay hisaab say nahee khara karayga, aur na hee firkay as a whole jannat ya dozakh main daalay jaain gay! hur shaks, chahay woh kisi bhee firkay ka ho, us say us kay ZAATI amaal kay sawaal poochay jaain gay! jab yeh baat aik JAHIL ko pata hai, to aap alim-e-deen ho kay is baat ko kyoon nahee samajhtay??????
na hee us hadeeth main jannat aur dozakh ka zikar aaya tha, aur na hee main nay jannat aur dozakh ka ziker kiyaa
HAQEEQAT YEH HAI, KAY JANNAT AUR DOZAKH KEE BAAT AAP NAY APNEE TARAF SAY SHAAMIL KEE HAI.. AB JAB KAY AAP KAY PAAS AUR KOI RAASTA NA RAHA, TO JHOOT KA SAHARA LIYAA! JAB AAP ITNAY SAAF AUR WAZAAY JHOOT BOLAIN GAY, TO LOG AAP KO JAHIL KAHAIN GAY, MUJHAY NAHEE! JHOOT AAP NAY BOLA HAI, NA KISI AHMADI NAI, NA KISI SHIYAA NAY! AGAR AAP KEE BAAT MAIN KOI LOGIC THAA TO JHOOT KYOON BOLA? AB JAB KAY AAP JHOOT BOLTAY HUWAY PAAYE GAYE HAIN, TO AAP KEE KISI BAAT PAY KOI KAISAY AITBAAR KARAY? JO SHAKS AIK POST MAIN JHOOT BOL SAKTA HAI, DOSREE POST MAIN US PAY KON BHAROSA KARAY? AGAR KHUDAA KA ZARA SA BHEE KHAUF AAP KAY DIL MAIN HOTA, TO AAP JHOOT NA BOLTAY!!! AGAR AAP SACHAY HAIN TO JHOOT KA SAHARA KYOON LIYAA?? YEH TO SUNAA HAI KAY AIK JHOOT KAY PEECHAY SO JHOOT BOLNAY PARTAY HAIN, MAGAR KABHEE YEH NAHEE SUNA, KAY SUCH KO SAABIT KERNAY KAY LIYE KOI JHOOT BOLAY! ISI BAAT SAY HUR KOI ANDAZA LAGA SAKTA HAI, KAY AAP KEE BAAT SUCH HAI YA JHOOT! ALLAH SAY DERO, JHOOTON PAR ALLAH KA AZAAB HAI, ALLAH KEE LAANAT HAI, JO JHOOT BOLAY GA, US PAY ALLAH KEE LAANAT HO GEE, WOH DUNYAA MAIN BHEE ZALEEL HO GA, AUR APNI AAKHRAT BHEE KHARAAB KARAY GA!

wah maulvi sahab waah! yeh kon sa such aap bol rahe hain, jisay saabit kernay kay liye jhoot ka sahara lena parta hai???

fiker na karain, abhee aur bhee kuch baatain hain jo aap say kerni hain.. aik aik ker kay... tamaam baatain hon gee..

ab molaana sahab, aap apna yeh farmaan sunain:
''''Ab tum ney jo hadith bataee thee, kalima sayer wali, to allah key banday, us main jo likha hay "kalima kehnay wala" us say murad sirf yeh nahin key La ilaha illallah Mohammed(PBUH) urrasoolullah keh dia aur bas.
Kalima to aap ka Amitab bachan bhi film main keh daita hay, kia aap us ko bhi musalman manaaingaay. Aur agar kalima kehnay say murad sirf kalima kehna he hota to Abu jahal bhi kalima keh daita.
''''
yaar yeh hadith main aap ko buhut dino say dikhaa raha tha, magar kyaa wajaa hai kay itnay dino baad hee aap ko is ka yeh jawaab soojha????

haaan, to janaab, yeh baat to aap nay hadith kay khilaaf bol dee!
aap ko kitnee dafa bola hai, kay baat kernay say pehlay soch liyaa kero, kay is ka kyaa nateeja niklay ga!

to janaab, main nay aik hadeeth pehlay bhee bayaan kee thee, aur ab dobara aap kee khidmat main pesh ker rahaa hoon.. agar aap kee ijazat ho to:
aik sahabi aik kafir ko aik ghazwa main katal kernay lagay.. mot ko samnay dekh ker us nay dur kay kalma parh liyaa, magar sahabi nay us ko katal ker diyaa.. Jab hazrat muhammad ko is baat kee khabar punchi, to aap buhut ziada naraaz huwe aur farmaya kay tum nay kyoon aik musalman ko katal kiya? sahabi na arz ki, ya rasoolallah, woh musamlman nahee tha, us nay kalma siraf mot kay dur say parha, rasoolullah nay farmaya, tujhay kaisay pata hai? kyaa too nay us ka dil phaar kay under say dekhaa tha??
muhammad is wakia say buhut pareshaan huwe, aap buhut baychain nazar aate thay, aur allah say un kee maghfirat kee duwaa kertay thay!

to janaab! ab zara aap dekhain, kai us shaks nay jis tarah kalma parha tha, woh moon say hee parhaa thaa! Amitabh bachchan nay film main ''acting'' kee thee, usee tarah, sahabi samjhay kay woh murnay waala shaks bhee ''acting'' ker raha hai! aur yehi un kee ghaltee thee!!

maulvi sahab, FITWAA ZUBAAN KEE BAAT PAY LAGTAA HAI, DIL KAY KHAYALAAT PAY NAHEE! ZUBAAN KEE BAAT KA TO INSAAN KO ILM HAI, MAGAR DIL KAY KHAYALAAT KA ILM SIRAF ALLAH KO HAI!

kalma parhnaa say muraad kalmaa ''kehnaa'' hee hai! kyoonke is baat ka faisla siraf allah hee ker sakta hai kay kis kay dil main kyaa hai!! kalma perhna say muraad kalma kehnaa hee hai, kyoonke ooper kee hadith main jo shaks katal huwaa, us nay siraf kalma ''kahaa'' tha! aur muhammad rasoolullah nay us ko ''musalmaan'' kahaa!! phir tum kon hotay ho muhammad kee shaan main gustaakhi kernay waalay??

jahaan tak aap kee yeh baat:
''''agar kalima kehnay say murad sirf kalima kehna he hota to Abu jahal bhi kalima keh daita.'''

agar abu jehel bhee kalmaa keh detaa to aanhazoor us ko kaafir na kehtay, aur us kee nimaz-e-janaaza na roktay.

memory main baat nahee, magar aij shaks tha, jis ka naam kuch yaad nahee aata, magar kuch yoon yaad hai kay usay munafikon ka sardaar kehtay thay! munafikon kay baaray main koran main likha hai, kay yeh moon say to kalma boltay hain, magar dil say nahee! usee munafikon kay sardaar kee nimaz-e-janaaza muhammad parhanay lagay, to omer aagay aaye aur bolay, keh ya rasoolullah, yeh shaks na siraf munafik tha, balkay aap kay baaray main ghalat baatain bhee kertaa tha.. muhammad muskaratay rahe... phir omer nay koran kee aayat dikhaee, kay yeh munafik moon say kalma boltay ain , dil say nahee, aur koran main kahaa gaya tha, kay ai nabi, too sattar dafa bhee mujh say in kee mughfarat maangay to main maaf na karoon ga.. muhammad nay farmaya, main ikattar dafa maghfirat maang loon ga! yeh keh ker us munafikon kay sardaar kee namaaz-e-janaza parhai!!!!

woh shaks bhee to siraf moon say kalma bolta tha, phir muhammad nay usay kaafir na bola... to tum kon ho??? tumhain yeh muhammad rasoolullah kee shaan main gustaakhi kernay kee jurrat kaisay huwee, kay jo baat aao nay jis tarah farmai, tum us kee jagah apnee ghalat baatain daal rahe ho??

us aadmi ko, jis nay dur kay kalima parha, usay musalmaan bola!! or tum ho kay jo kalmaa parhnay walon ko kaafir kaafir kehtay ho???

yeh baat ooper kee do waakiaat say saabit hai, kay kalma kehnay ka mutlub kalma kehnaa hee hai!

ab aap kee dee gayee aayat kee asal jaga aati hai:
Surah Nisa - Ayat 65
Fala wa rabbika …. yusallaymu tasleema.
Ay paighambar (sallalahu alaihay wassallam) teray parwardigar ki kasam (Allah SWT khud apni kasam khata hay) woh momen na hongay jab tak apnay jhagroon ka faisla tujh say na karaeen. Phir teray faislay say un key diloon main kuch udasi na ho aur khusi khushi man ker manzoor na kerlain.

to janaab woh momin na hon gay, jo muhammad ka faisla khooshi khooshi kabool na karain.. theek hai...

jhagra hai kai shia kaafir hain ya nahee...

muhammad is maslay ko hul farmatay hain:
'''kalma-go ko kaafir kehnay waala khood kaafir hai!'''

is kay baad agar koi phir rasoolullah kay faislay kay aagay bolnay kee jurat karay, to us kay baaray main koran nay farmaya hai, kay ,,,,,woh momin nahee ho ga..... samajh aayee??

to ab janaab niaz sahab, rasoolullah kay faislay kay aagay khooshi khooshi sur jhukaa dain!!!!!! ab aur bolnay ko kuch nahee raha, aap jhootay to pehlay hee saabit ho chukay hain.. ab rasoolullah kay faislay main dakhal andaazi ker kay gustaakh-e-rasool bhee na bun jaana!!

lincolns inn main jahaan dunyaa kay baray baray munsifeen kay naam likhay hain, un main sub say pehla naam muhammad hai! muhammad jo tamam insano say aur tamam anbiyaa say afzal hain, unhon nay saaf aur insaaf oay mubnee faislaa ker diyaa hai!!

hum subko chahiye kay is faislay kay aagay sur jhukaatay huway is topic ko yaheen khatam ker dain... kyoonke woh momen na hongay jab tak apnay jhagroon ka faisla tujh say na karaeen. Phir teray faislay say un key diloon main kuch udasi na ho aur khusi khushi man ker manzoor na kerlain. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

28

  1. Assalam O Alaikum ya ahlal quboor : Yeh us waqt istimal hota hay jab aap Qabaristan jao. Lakin meray ilm main koi aisi hadith nahin jiss say yeh pata chalta ho key murday yeh suntay hain. Ya ka lafz yahan is liay istimal hota hay kiyon key, hum qabaristan main hotay hain, aur hamaray samnay qabrain hotee hain, qabroon main murday hain. Jo humain sun nahin saktay lakin hum un per salam bhaij saktay hain. Agar Ya key istimal main abhi bhi kuch mushkil hay to barah-e-meharbani kisi arbi daan say is ka istimaal poochlain. Yeh mere bas ki baat nahin.

  2. 73 sects : Kia tum ney yeh hadith nahin kahee thee ???.

  3. Agar koi kalima parhay aur Qayamat per yaqeen na rakhay to kia kaho gaay aap aisay banday ko. Aur jaisa mainey kaha agar Kalima kehnay say murad bas kalima kehna he hota to phir Abu jehal bhi kalima kehdaita, us ney nahin kaha kiyon key kalima kehnay say aur hazar chezain jur jateen hain. khair.

  4. Eik bar phir, main aqeeday ki baat ker raha hoon, insaan key dil main jo hay us ke nahin.

  5. "memory main baat nahee, magar aij shaks tha, jis ka naam kuch yaad nahee aata, magar kuch yoon yaad". Allah key banday is tarah key to main bhi kafi kisay suna sakta hoon, lakin khair. (i am not saying this is not authentic.)

Allah ki kasam jiss key qabzay main mere jaan hay mainey tum say bara baat to mor ker ghalat andaz main bian kerney wala aur kisi bhi baat ka ghalat matlab nikalney wala admi nahin daikha apni zindagee main.

Allah mujhay aur tumhain aur hum sab ho hidayat day. (Ameen)

29

.....

[This message has been edited by shiraarty (edited 09-30-98).]

30

Sab say pehlay to aap jhootay saabil ho chukay hain, aap nay mujh say woh baat mansoob kee, jo main nay nahee kahee thee! aap agar sachay hotay, to apnee sachai ka saboot pesh kertay huwe mujhay quote kertay, kay fakaan date ko falaan forum main aap nay yeh baat bolee thee! jab kay aap jhootay saabit ho chukay hain, to aap say mazeed baat kerna fazool hai, magar aap kay jo sawalaat hai, un ka jawaab zaroor dayta hoon:

1) 1. Assalam O Alaikum ya ahlal quboor :

aap farmatay hain.
"Ya ka lafz yahan is liay istimal hota hay kiyon key, hum qabaristan main hotay hain, aur hamaray samnay qabrain hotee hain, qabroon main murday hain. Jo humain sun nahin saktay lakin hum un per salam bhaij saktay hain"

haan , yehi meraa point hai! kay murday aap ko sun nahee saktay, magar un ko YA keh kay mukhaatib kiyaa jaata hai, is main koi 'kufur' nahee... isi tarah ali, husaain, muhammad, woh bhee nahee sun saktay, magar un ko bhee YA keh diyaa to kyaa harj hai?
agar kufur hai, to tamaam murdon ko Ya kehnaa kufur hai.. agar kufur nahee, to kisi murday ko Ya kehna kufar nahee!!

2) 73 sects : "Kia tum ney yeh hadith nahin kahee thee ???."

jeee haan, main nay jo hadith kahee thee, us main "jannat dozah" ka koi ziker nahee aaya tha,aur na aa sakta hai.. kyoon nahee aa sakta? , yeh main aap ko previous post main samjhaanay kee nakaam koshish ker chukaa hoon..

meri hadith main jannat aur dozakh ka koi ziker nahee aaya thaa, yeh baatain aap nay apnee taraf say milaa lee hain, aur jhoot ka sahara liya hai, taake apnaa point prove kero.
aap ka jhoot saabit ho chukaa hai..

3) "3. Agar koi kalima parhay aur Qayamat per yaqeen na rakhay to kia kaho gaay aap aisay banday ko."

agar koi kalmaa parhay, aur kayamat per yakeen na rakhay, to aisay aadmi ko "munaafik" kehtay hain.. aur 'munafikon kay sardar' abdullah kee namaaz-janaaza Muhammad rasoolullah nay khood parhai thee! koran main aaya hai, kay munaafik kay liye, ai nabi, too 70 dafaa bhee maafi maang to main unhain maafi na doon ga... rasoolullah nay omer ko farmaya, main 71 dafa maafi maang loon ga!
jab muhammad rasoolullah ka yeh kehnaa thaa, phir tum kon hotay ho unhain kaafir kehnay waalay?

4) " Eik bar phir, main aqeeday ki baat ker raha hoon, insaan key dil main jo hay us ke nahin."

aqeeday kee baat bhee ker lo, saabit ho gaya hai kay muray huwe ko YA kehnaa kufur nahee hai!!

5)
""memory main baat nahee, magar aij shaks tha, jis ka naam kuch yaad nahee aata, magar kuch yoon yaad".

lo baba us shaks ka naam "abdullah" thaa, aur usay munaafikon ka sardaar kehtay thay.

niaz sahab, aap nay saath hee farmaya,
"(i am not saying this is not authentic.)"

yahaan aap ko pata tha kay baat authentic hai, magar aap nay jaan boojh ker meri zaati kamzori ko point banay kee koshish kee, us shaks ka naam likh kay main nay aap ka yeh sawaal bhee poora ker diyaa!

31

Bismihi Ta’la
'Assalam o alaikum

To understand the difference between the two schools of thought, I would suggest some reading materials. If you need to know, how to acquire them, do let me know.

Before that, generally the difference stems from their understanding of the issue of succession to the Prophet [peace be upon him]. Some scholars, do believe that the differences are infact part and parcel due to the nature of human thought, that leads to a different understanding of the divine text. In any case enjoy reading these articles, where some of them are also available on the WWW.

Regards

Abbas, Ali
http://www.al-islam.org/index

al Tawhid Quarterly Journal of Islamic Studies, Hadith al Thaqalayn: A Study of its Tawatur, Parts I, II, III, IV, The Islamic Republic of Iran. A detailed discussion on hadith al thaqalayn, with a focus on the different versions of the same tradition, various occasions related to its mentioning, chain of narrators of the hadith, it’s meaning, and lastly, a comparison against those traditions that conflict with hadith al thaqalayn. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp

Mohammad Jawad Chirri, The Brother of the Prophet Mohammad (The Imam Ali), The Islamic Center of America, Detroit Michigan, 1988. Chapter: The House of the Prophet Mohammad. A book that imparts an understanding of the position of the Shi’a, through the authentic and reliable works of hadiths from the Sunni works, covering aspects of the life of the fourth rightly guided for the Sunni’s and the first Imam of the Shi’ites with an emphasis on the household (ahl al bayt) of the Prophet.

---- Inquiries about Islam, The Islamic Center of America, 1986 Revised Edition. Chapter: 21, Differences among Muslims. An undertaking of the author to highlight the differences among the muslims, with a specific note to it’s relevance in a contemporary society. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp

Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, Imamate and Leadership, Lessons on Islamic Doctrine (Book Four), translated by Hamid Algar, Sayyed Mojtaba Musavi Lari Foundation of Islamic C.P.W, 12 Entezam St, Qom, I.R Iran, 1996. Lesson Six, The Relationship between the Quran and the Progeny of the Prophet, Lesson Thirteen, The True Nature of the Holders of Authority. This books outlines the concept of leadership as understood by the Shi’ites with a specific emphasis at explaining the foundations of one of the principle of faith as held by the Shi’ites, namely ‘Imamate’, loosely translated as Leaderhip. Covers an extensive portion on Shi’ism and its development in history.

Ideals and Realities of Islam, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, George Allen and Unwin (1966), Chapter VI, Sunnism and Shi’ism - Twelve Imam Shi’ism and Isma’ilism. Treats the subject of the division within Islam into Sunnism and Shi’'ism from a religious and historical perspective, on the question of successorship of the Prophet, and with a specific emphasis on the exoteric and esoteric aspects of religion as viewed by the Shi’ites.

Shi’a, S. M. H Tabatabai, translated by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ansariyan Publications, Iran, Chapter VI, On the Knowledge of the Imam (Imamology). A book which treats the historical reality of Shi’ism within Islam, her contribution to the spread of the Quranic message, and her existence as a possibility within the Islamic revelation itself. The chosen chapter, specifically focusses on the role of the imams of the ahl al bayt, in the exposition of the divine sciences, that again goes back to the underlying wisdom of treating the ahl al bayt with the Quran (thus the hadith al thaqalayn).

Islamic Spirituality Foundations (vol I of II), edited by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, The Crossroad Publishing Company, 1997. Chapter 9, Twelve Imam Shi’ism, Syed Husain M. Jafri, A dicsussion on Twelve Imam Shi’ism, with an extensive discussion on the role of the Imam and the significance of their lives, with a specific treatment of the Shi’ite piety and practices.

The Right Path, 'Abd al Husayn Sharaf al Din al Musawi, Zahra Publications, 1986, Letter 8: Failure to appreciate my former letter. Petitio Principii does not arise. The tradition of the ‘two weighty things’ …. A book consisting a series of letters in the form of questions and answers, seeks to explain, justify and uphold the raison d’etre of Shi’ism, between a Sunni and a Shi’a scholar, Salim al Bishri and the aforementioned name. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp.

Shi’as are the Ahl al Sunnah, al Tijani al Samawi, Vantage Press Inc, 1996. Chapter: Is it “the book of Allah and my Progeny” or “the Book of Allah and my Sunnah?”. A book that explores the delicate, yet essential question of: “Who is better qualified to the claim of being a followers of Islam’s Prophet in spirit and practice?”. The selected chapter further elaborates on the Tradition of the ‘Quran and my Sunnah’.

32

Mudassir & Niaz & any others who consider shias non-muslims,

Even before I start to discuss this matter or give out my personal views, I think if you guys want to do a logical/historical and proofs with references discussion on this topic, than we should start. But if your intentions are to label and spit out your fabricated/illogical statements just for the sake of shia bashing then I would think we have heard your opinion once and that is enough for your lifetime. In case you guys posses minds that do urge you to think and analyze information/history with neutrality rather than forwarding any fabricated statements you have heard from fanatic, non-educated so-called Mullahs, I would welcome your opinionated statements based on only authenticated and valid information, Care to continue this??

If so, then,

Proof your hypothesis of shias non existence as muslims????

[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited November 30, 1998).]

33

Bismihi T'ala
'Assalam o alaikum

If we wish to continue on the historical aspect, that treats the growth of Shi'ism as an identity in itself, I am willing to devote an ample amount of my time and resources on this issue.

Let me make it clear, that I personally do not wish to either attack or insult the faith of my brothers and sisters from the Ahlal Sunna.

My intention is to prove the validity of the Shia school of thought, particularly those of the Ithna Ashari (Twelver Imami) also known as the Jafari school of thought, within the realm of what the Qur'an, and
the sunnah personifies (as embodied in the traditions, known as hadith).

I will begin with this famous tradition and will leave the floor open to discussion.

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of God, stood to give us a speech beside a pond, which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum), located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised God and reminded of Him, and then said: "O' people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by God) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of God in which there is light and guidance ... The other one is my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. (three times)."

Sahih Muslim, Chapter: The virtues of the companions, Section: The virtues of 'Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, tradition: 36. For English version, Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, tradition: 5920

With much regards, and in need of your prayers,

Abbas, Ali
[email protected]

34

Assalamualaikum

Dear brothers & sisters,

This discussion forum has been too long and
everything is heard so I think its better to
drop it by now. Secondly, I would request
all please use English rather than Urdu,
Punjabi English mix as it is very difficult
to read. Finally, what I want to say is
we dont need to care what has happened before
us, who becomes an iman or not, forget about these things, we will be judged according to
our iman and aamal and they will be judged
according to theirs. What is important is
to follows what Rasullalah has left with
us Quran and Sunnah, if you believe your
sect is going for these two things then it
is right for you to follow if not then you
should look for an alternative. But one
thing, is certain and the whole muslim
world agree is QADIYANIS are Kafirs and
we dont want to listen to anything from
them. Let me repeat, if you believe Shia's
are following the Quran and Sunnah then
thats great follow it and if you think
Sunni's are the one who follows Quran and
sunnah correctly then follow it.

What I believe is neither Rasullalah pbuh
nor ANY Sahabahs (including Hazrat Ali) were shias nor qadiyanis, they were the one who
follows Quran and Sunnah and they are the
successful one so if you want to be successful follows Quran and Sunnah and stop
labeling yourself sunnis shias.

Regards

35

Mohammad Ali sahib,

The sole base of my input/questioning/invitation for discussion was to rebute any stupid, hatred allegations of some of the participants of this thread as they said repeatedly "Shias are not muslims". Just like any other muslims, Shia based every rule and regulation on the following of Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Mohd. So, as I understood your response, you are sensible enough not to portray shias as non muslims/Kafirs and have clearly presented the only criteria to be muslim, i.e, to follow Quran and Sunnah of Prophet. According to you, whoever meets that criteris is muslim. If thats the case than I don't need to say anything further as you and all other muslims know that Shias follow the same rituals as other muslims and never in the history of Islam, either in resent past or after the death of Prophet, have Shias been labeled "Kafirs" or "non muslims" by any authenicated/learned Alim of Islam.

Regards

36

The worst trait that we Pakistanis have is that we are concerened with what everyone else is doing. We should be concerened with who and what we are and what we do. Passing judgements on people will do nothing for you in this world or in the hereafter. Let it be guys and let Allah (S.W.T) judge you and the others.

Later on
Zman

37

If I repeat some of the stuff discussed, I apologise. I could not read all 34 at one time. Here is my input on this matter.

NOT ALL SHIA ARE MUSLIMS. But some are. They have a few sects in which they contradict with the sunni belief. Not the history.

Like one sect says, Ali should have been the choosen one. When Jibraeel came down with the Quran, Ali was praying and told him to wait buy hitting 3 times in his(Ali's) lap. Jibraeel was in such a hurry that he went to Mohammed (saw). If this is the belief, they have committed Kufr. Making them non-muslims.

But it is true that once someone has taken the Shahada, you cannot call them kafirs unless they have committed Shirk or kufr. Meaning, if they differentiate from us (or Islamic) in belief.

Also, according to a Hadith, there will be 73 different sects of Islam. Out of which 72 will be wrong and only 1 will be right.

I ask allah (swt) to keep all Muslims on the path of Sirat Al Mustakeem...and to guide the non-belivers...ameen.

w'salam.
Humayun

[This message has been edited by HomiD (edited December 02, 1998).]

38

HomiD & Others,

For the Sake of clarification, I would like to inform you guys that in today's world, presently, the word "Shias" or the sect "shia" is referred to "Twelver" who believe in 12 Imams and are the majority of shias. They are called Shia Asna Ashari (meaning Shias of Twelvers). People are right when they said there have and had been several mini or sub-sects within Shia sect just like there are divisions between maninstream "Sunni" sect where they have "Malakis", "Shaafis", "DeooBandis", "Hanafiis" etc etc, such as Agha Khanis (who consider themselves Ismailii Shias) and certain other small sects who either exists on very small scale or cease to exist over time.

Mr. HomiD,

The hadith or event you have quoted is not believed by Shia Asna Ashari (mainstream/majority of Shias). They do not consider Ali to be greater than Prophet or the one who was the one who should have gotten Quran. Shias believe that Prophet is the most honorable, respectful and Greatest Prophet of the world. I do not know where you quoted that from, if you know the sect and also the source of this hadiths/event I would be very interested to find out what shia sect believe in that kind of fabricated, ill-logical, non-existence hadith.

As for your statement that "some shias are muslim", I think if you do a more thorough and unbiased study of Shiaism, you are bound to change your statement to "Shias are muslims except for few sub-sects whose beliefs don't match with the main stream Islam" because I think last time I saw, Iran was considered an Islamic country where as you already know the population majority as well as country's religion is based on Shia beliefs of Islam.

In last, if any of you think that Islamic World's most prominent Islamic University, Al Ahzar, in Cairo, Egypt holds any truthfulness and validity as far as Islamic history/sharia/beliefs are concerned, than you can find in many books where the Grand Muftis & Learned Alims/Scholars of Islam have expressed their positive and satisfactory views in relation to shia practice which is known as Jaferia Fiqah among other Islam Fiqahs such as Hanafi, Shaafi, Malaki, Hanbali. If any of you need the reference, I would be happy to quote you the name of the Scholar and the publication as well.

39

Assalamualaikum,

I have heard some Sunnis say that Shias are not Muslim. The reasons they gave, were that they pray differently, and other acts of worship differently, and that they reject the Sahih Bukhari book of Hadith. The only other thing I have heard, if it is true, would make Shias non Muslims. Some say that Shias their Imams can overrule Allah's words, and those of the Prophet(S.A.W.). If this is not true about Shias, then I have no reason to believe that they are not Muslim.

The only argument that people have other than that is that Shias of the early days disputed the outcome of a Mashwara that took place shortly after the time of the Prophet(S.A.W.). If this did anything to the Islam of the Muslims back then, it should not matter for those who are Shia right now.

The only people who I believe are not Muslim are the Ahmadis, and Nation of Islam. It's because of what I've heard of their beliefs that I believe they are kafir.

May Allah forgive me if I have said anything wrong.

40

Asif & Homid & all others,

Obviously the information you have gotten about Shia Asna Ashari (majority of shias) is based on fabrication and false information just made up so that there is higher division between shias and other muslims and so that all sunnis and others would consider Shias to be non muslim. I politely ask you guys that before you believe in rumors or statements from other people mouth that you pay some attention to the validity of their statements.

Asif, what you have quoted about Shias can't never be part of Shia's set of Beliefs. I am very astonished and surprised to hear the degree of fabrication, lies and madeup stuff that has been propaganded to average muslim just so that they would hate Shias and consider them non muslims. But as sad and unfortunate as this is, I hate to say that people who propaganded this fabricated stuff have succeeded in their mission how else would I be hearing all type of wrong beliefs associated with Shias.