Salam,
I am here for a peaceful discussion, no fighting please. Tell me what exactly is the difference between sunnis and shias. Please let me know your thoughts on this matter are shias muslims?
Assalam O Alaikum
The answer is No.
Jazakumullah Khair / Assalam O Alaikum.
Shias and sunnis are two sects of the same religion and there is a little difference in beliefs and practices. That's all I know at this time.
Anybody who says the kalma is a muslim.
Niaz,
Not only are Shias muslims but You are certainly not God. So dont declare any one non muslim.
SuperMan
Firstly, I should make clear my belief that fundamentally both Shiis and Sunnis are Muslims. The two sects only arose after the death of our dear Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Now for those who want to read the rest,
please read this post in two parts :
1) My knowledge about the two sects, Shias and Sunnis (this is based upon a few readings and basic stuff I have been exposed to);
2) What I have heard from a Shi'i friend
Its only fair to expose both sides.
1 : MY POINTS.
The time after the death of Muhammad (PBUH) brought along a difference in opinion amongst the followers as to the candidacy for Caliphates. There were those who believed that the chain should continue from the family of Muhammad (PBUH) and there were others who believed that Abu-Bakr Siddique is to be the first Caliph as suggested by the Prophet himself. The strong unity amonst the Muslims, Abu-Bakr was taken as the Caliph, and the chain continued by delegation of authority. Meanwhile there were still those who believed that the Calphate should be restored by one of the members of the family and Ali was the most prominent choice of the time. The death of Uthman throught the hands of the mutineers of Egypt brought Ali into power. However group formations and power politics of that time constrained Ali to punish the killers of Uthman and this provided a paltform for his opposition and Ayesha (A.S.) was one of the leaders. Some of the followers of Ali formed their own group and are thus called teh Kharijites in history (the outsiders). Ali (A.S) was killed by a Kharijite member. At this time there was no such thing as the Shias and the Sunnis. Hassan (s.o. Ali) gave the rights to the Caliphate to Muawiyah who in turn was later faced by Hussayn and this led to the death of Husayn at Karbala. This caused an uproar in the group of Ali and this group since then in called the Shiites.
Now the Shiis and Sunnis are self-formulated sects in Islam, fundamentally different in their opinions about the right to Caliphate and leadership (Imamate). Time brought about groups with varying loyalty to the Alids and special religious attitudes. Within the Shiis again there are at least three sects that I know of :
The Zaidies
The Twelver Shiis (Ithna Asharis)
The Ismaili Shiis (not Ismaiili sect!!)
The discussion of these is not relevant here.
In contrast to teh followers of Ali there was the Jamaah which later evolved into Jamaah-e-Sunnis and now known as teh Sunnis.
The above may be unclear but restricted to space and time this is my knowledge. The present situation I think is a product of dirty politics in Pakistan. India mein tow Govt. Hindu Muslims ko Ladwatee hai, Pakistan mein kyunke majority Muslims hai, tow Shiaa Sunniown ko ladwaayaa jaataa hai. Don't Shias and Sunnis coexist in other countries, Iran is a live example. How often do you hear dangey fassad there.
2) My Shii friend differs at that at the time of his death Muhammad (PBUH) had clearly appointed Ali as the Caliph, but some people in the absence of Ali had sworn allegiance to Abu-Bakr and thus Ali was deprivrd of his legitimate right then, and it is here that the groups had split up but even the Shiis accepted Abu-Bakr as the Caliph on the orders of Ali.
God only knows the past, but we should strive to resolve our problems by removing misunderstandings and striving for a better Muslim community especially in Pakistan.
Allah Hafiz.
Thanks Umar Talib, you have correctly pointed out the history. I just wanted to add that this was infight between the two factions(Hashmites and Umayad) of the same tribe Quraish. It is not understood why after 1400 years people are killing one an other due to this family feud which has nothing to do with the present Shii or Sunni. They are killing one an other though they are descendants of Umayad or Hashmites!!!! I wonder if they can even go back to five generations to know any thing about their ancestors?
Farid
Thank you folks I am not ignorant of these facts. The only reason I asked this question was that a few days ago I encountered a fellow muslim who insisted that shias are not muslims. I was amazed to see that there are muslims out there who are this ignorant and I wanted your input on this matter. I guess you guys are different because you are educated on this matter. Salam your sister Fatima
WAIT !!!
I will tell u about shiasm, just let me collect the matter on it.
A person is considered Muslim or a non Muslim from the faith he has and not by the history. So i think we should consider their believes rather than the history. As the believes they have rite now are far from Islam.
Neways, i will be coming up with some solid matter.
Bye.
Niaz,
In your openion what Shii have made you think that they are not Muslims? I say they are as good Muslims as Sunnis. The difference between them is so little that it can be ignored for the sake of Unity of Muslims, rather than creating un-necessary hatred against each other, which is a lose-lose position.
By birth I am Sunni, after reading the history, I believed that Umayad had revenged heavily against the Shadat of Hadrat Usman , for not taking any action against the notables who were involved in the Shahadat of Hadrat Usman. Hadrat Ali was highly respectable Khalifa among the orthodox califs, he must have solid reasons for not bringing those people to book.
After forceful departure of Hadrat Ali, Amir Muawia came in power in rigged election, other party was deprived of their rights not to accept the ruler. Later on, tragic death of Hadrat Imam Husain by Yazid, son of Amir Muawia, clearly divided the two factions of the same tribe.
Farid
[This message has been edited by Farid (edited 09-15-98).]
I don't much of teh difference but i agree with soem things some ppl said and others i don't/ Ali (r) waas not forced to punish the killers of uthman (r) he ws one of the choices from the very beginning, but he was also much younger and inexperienced compared to Abu Bakr. The shiaa ppl. believ that ali (R) should have been the first kalifa and i heard their azan is different. Another thing, nto anyone who sas the kalima is considered muslim, it is those who act upon it. Only god can judge who is or isn't muslim.
AA
Assalam O Alaikum!!
Farid bhai, u know who is a muslim and who is not, ok well we can't say that as we are not God and we cannot see wat is in the heart of ppls, as the faith is from the heart. So we see the faith and the believe a sect has.
Let me tell u somethings about shias,
- Their Azan is different.
- Their way of praying is different.
- They allow the word ya to be used for the dead ones like ya hussain, ya mohammed, ya ali. (peace be upon them). And as u all may know using Ya with a dead is shirk.
- The shia's have too many bidaats in them. (bidaat = something which is not taken from Quran or sunnah).
- They have differnce in revelance of Quran also.
Now i think, just for the sake of unity we cannot ignore this. Isn;t it. Then we can call Qadianese also muslim, just for the sake of unity and hindus also. Its not like that, wat is wrong is wrong and wat is right is right.
I will try to collect matter on it and explain in detail but now adays i am busy on qadianism / ahmediat.
Jazakumullah khair / Assalam O Alaikum.
Dear Niaz:
I just wanted to ask you what you meant by "Different" Does that mean "un-islamic" or just that they do it in a way which you don't like. Lets make a couple of points clear:
Shias and Sunnis are both Muslims because:
1) They believe in Allah and the Prophet (PBUH)
2) They believe in the Quran And Sunnah
Unfortunately, there is alot of ignorance and misunderstanding on BOTH sides about the other. I am talking from a unique perspective because one of my parents is Sunni and the other is Shia. I have seen both "divisions" from the inside. Both share about 99% of their religious beliefs. A difference of 1% is really no difference.
Theres one MAJOR problem with religion:
It makes people of EVERY faith or sect think that THEY are the right ones, and everyone else has gone astray...
...and I see that everywhere...especially here on this forum...
f.
[This message has been edited by frisky (edited 09-17-98).]
Assalam alaikum
It is true that at first the difference between the shias and sunnis was the difference in the chain of Imams but now the shias have deviated and also have many sects within shiism some of which say that the Hadhrat Ali (R.A.) should have been the prophet and there are some which do not say this. There are some which only say that the khaleefs should have all come from the Prophet Muhammad's (S.A.W.) Family but do not disagree with the fact that Muhammad (S.A.W.) was the Prophet.
Anyway the fact is all shias are not the same. I'm sunni by the way.
Jihad starts at home. Killing people doesn't kill ideas.
Assalam alaikum.
Niaz,
Same is applicable to other sect. There are number of sub- sects with in Sunni Sect. e.g. Ahale Hadis, Ahle Sunnat, Wahabi etc. etc. and they also differ slightly with one another in prayers and other matters. So will you also declare them as Kafirs if they do not conform to your belief?
To me it is not religious difference, but rather economically or politically motivated. Extremist on both sides are playing in the hands of rival power base to work unintentionally for their objectives rather than to serve any religious purpose, which is very unfortunate for the Muslims as whole. The more the Muslims are divided, the more they will be marginalized.
Farid
Assalam O Alaikum !!
Shias's believes are DIFFERENT from Islam and not from sunnis or Wahabis. As far as the case of sunnis, salfees, ahal-e-hadith or wahabees are concerned, they all believeing in the sunnah of prophet PBUH) but its just a case that some believe some hadith and some believe the others.
e.g. There are different ways to pray by sahih ahadith, lets take example of witar, u can pray 3 together and u can pray 2 and then 1, and u can pray 5 .... just like that. BUT as far as u r basic believes are correct, nothing to worry about.
I am not very much familiar with shias, only i know about their aqayad and i think their aqayad are very false.
I will give u one very solid point : Shirk is what Allah SWT will not forgive as Allah SWT says in Quran :
Innallaha la yaghfuru iaen yushraka behe wa yaghfuru ma duna zalika.
Now how shias do shirk : They call the people who have passed away, like they say Ya Ali, Ya Muhammed, Ya Hussain. Remember no doubt Hazrat Hussan (A.S) was shaheed and Allah says Shaheed is not dead but he is alive, but all the alims agree on it that it is not the live which we live, its different from that. and Although a shaheed is alive but he cannot hear us, he cannot see us. Then how come they call him ya.
Ya is an arabic word which means O, (aay) used for someone who is present or who can hear u. Now as muslims we believe that only Allah SWT can hear us. As far as any other personality is concerned, NO, NO ONE CAN HEAR US EXCEPT ALLAH.
And this is shirk with Allah SWT 's ausaaf. I have seen people going to Mazaars in Pakistan and making dua, kissing the mazar, only thing allowed in mazar is that u can pray for the forgiveness of the one dead there to Allah. But u cannot make the dead one waseelah for asking Allah SWT.
What i said about shias was just because of such believes. If someone calls himself shia and do not believe in these, then no doubt he is a Muslim . I WOULD LIKE TO REPEAT, A PERSON IS CONSIDERED MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM AS PER HIS OWN BELIEVES. So everyone can judge himself now.
Wa ma alaina illalbalagh.
Jazakumullah khair / Assalam O Alaikum.
Salam to all,
Dear Niaz brother, I am a Shia and I am sorry to tell you that you are extremely ignorant about our religion Islam, and my shia faith. Are you merely repeating what has been passed on to you from your ignorant and prejudiced ancestors? Please do some research!
Assalam O Alaikum
Hows everybody!!! sab ko Pakistan ki 4 - 1 win mubarak ho. Alhamdolillah, apni team line per agaee hay ab. :)))
Fatima behan: Did i just say that the believes of shias are wrong. Didn't i proved it. And if it was from my prejudiced (waisay is ka matlab kia hota hay, hehe) and ignorant ancesters, i would have said meray nana kehtay thay ya mere dadi kehtee thee, ya falaan maulana sahab nay farmaya hay. Lakin mainey to aap ko itnay solid points diay hain. Ab research kerna aap ka kaam hay key jo mainey kaha woh sahih hay ya nahin means aya yeh aqaeed shiasm key hain ya nahin aur agar hain to islam ki ru say yeh sahih hain ya ghalat.
Baqee kaam aap ka, Agar aap ko kuch poochna ho to zaroor poochyay ga [main to aisay bol raha hoon jaisay bohot bara alim hoon, lol, hehe].
Just for u r and everybody's information. For research and knowledge the ultimate source of a Muslim should be Quran and sunnah. Don't go directly for an imam. Take u r time, see what Quran says then u can move to sunnah. u see all imams are following Quran and sunnah of Mohammed (PBUH) so y go for an imam, y not directly the Quran and Sunnah. The best thing now a days is Quran and Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. Inshallah u will get answers of almost of of u r questions. U should go for Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim because they are the most authentic books of ahadith. It doesn't mean the others are not authentic. But as far as these books are concerned u can believe them blindly.
I have seen many shias who do not believe in some of the basic believes of shiasm. As mudassar bhai has also said. So what i advice u just see u r believes, aur bas doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani ho jaay ga. I REPEAT A PERSON IS MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM DEPENDING ON HIS / HER FAITHS/ BELIEVES.
Wa ma alaina illalbalagh / Assalam O Alaikum!!
Salam everyone,
Sunni Brothers, some of you need major info about the shia faith. I am not here to convert anyone, I am here to educate you. Some of you do not know the truth about shiasm. Read Peshawar Nights, it quotes your own sunni books, some of the ones brother Niaz have mentioned are also quoted. 1. According to Our faith Imam Ali should have been the first Imam not because of lineage but because of ability, devotion to Islam, and goodness of character and the desires of the holy prophet.
2. The Prophet announced that Ali will be the sucessor during one of his famous speeches, the event is known in history as Eid e Ghadir.
3. Abu Baker Umar and Usman, after the death of the prophet, were scrambling for power and riches, while mola Ali was at the prophet's funeral site. Tell me who loved the prophet more and who proved to be more materialistic?
4. For those who are confused about the "so called sects" of shiasm THERE IS ONLY ONE SECT WHICH IS SHIASM ITSELF! The ones that belief that Imam Ali sould have been the prophet are not shias, they are called something else, I dont recall right now. Then there are those who believe that Imam Ali is God, they are called Noosarees. Please do not confuse the above mentioned with us shias.