Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
This. Exactly.
I, as a born and bred American, would LOVE nothing more than for the US to stop policing the rest of the world and concentrate on domestic issues...HOWEVER, as a person who was directly effected by 9/11, every time I hear someone say that the attacks on the twin towers were a Jewish plot/conspiracy to make Muslims look bad while I watch news after news about the Shia genocide that persists in Pakistan, the madness that had engulfed Karachi and the unbearable loadshedding in Punjab while these fat, corrupt politicians feed off of the poor and innocent, it makes me wonder where the blame should really lie.
While 9/11 is extremely tragic. The innocent people who have been KILLED INTENTIONALLY as a result in heedlessness are much much more in numbers. Think in the hundreds of thousands if not more. So how is that equal to 9/11, or worthy of being justified? Isn't that placating one people over other because 1 American life lost=1000+ non-Americans? Is that the standard we're following now?
And it's not ending. Even as we talk about this incident, somewhere in the world a U.S. or NATO Pilot is locking down on one suspect but will take out 100 people without remorse and call it collateral damage and sleep easy at night. To subdue the feelings of guilt, he/she will remind him/herself that 9/11 happened, so it's all fine to do this.
How can you be okay with that and equate those two?
Rest of what you said about Pakistani Politicians, or for that matter any politicians is right on spot. They're only concerned with their wealth with little to no genuine care for the public at-large.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Saudis can be whatever they like, i have no issue with them as a people, although i detest their kingdoms policies and their intrusive nature in other Muslim countries, particularly Pakistan. They point is that when comparing America and Saudis influence in Pakistan, the Saudi influence has done far more harm, yet Pakistanis are in love with the Saudis because the have this romanticized idea of who the Saudis are. America on the other hand is treated with disdain...
Im simply trying to illustrate the point that if the situation were reversed, and the drones were controled by Muslims, in particular the SAUDIS, Pakistanis wouldnt even consider the drones an issue. Drones are only an issue because its American who fly them.
drones are not an issue because the Americans are flying it, drones are an issue because they result in death of many many innocent people which gives rise to more extremism and terrorism and eventually it is the people of Pakistan who suffer while the american just shrug their shoulders and call it collateral damage. Double standards.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
drones are not an issue because the Americans are flying it, drones are an issue because they result in death of many many innocent people which gives rise to more extremism and terrorism and eventually it is the people of Pakistan who suffer while the american just shrug their shoulders and call it collateral damage. Double standards.
People of Pakistan suffer not because of the drones, but because they refuse to acknowledge the extremists among them and the responsibility they have in controling them.
Their refrains against the use of drones may or may not be valid, but when they ignore, become apologists for or divert blame for the mass murder being committed in their own countries by their own people, then their credibility and motivation in criticizing the drones is suspect..
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
People of Pakistan suffer not because of the drones, but because they refuse to acknowledge the extremists among them and the responsibility they have in controling them.
Their refrains against the use of drones may or may not be valid, but when they ignore, become apologists for or divert blame for the mass murder being committed in their own countries by their own people, then their credibility and motivation in criticizing the drones is suspect..
Whatever happens within Pakistan does not in any way, shape, or form make it okay for there to be drone attacks that kill indiscriminately. The ratio of suspects killed vs. Innocent civilians killed is so vast.
The extremists flying the drones, and the extremists they're targeting have more in common than they realize. Both have a rationale for their actions. Both are so wrong from a life-lost perspective.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
What has 9/11 got to do with the problems you have listed. Is there a direct link, I dont think so. The direct link between 9/11 is the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan Iraq is still bleeding while US has run from there after creating mayhem and destruction and now is running from Afghanistan after doing the same. That is the comparison between 9/11 and the mayhem which ensued. as an American that is what you should be focusing on.
I think you have arrived late to the conversation so you missed the context.
We are referring to people in Muslim world who ignore the problems in their own countries, terrorism, extremism corruption etc, and choose instead to blame America for all their ills. For someone who has witnessed terrorism of the sort that Pakistanis ignore or make excuses for, such things are even more abhorrent.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
People of Pakistan suffer not because of the drones, but because they refuse to acknowledge the extremists among them and the responsibility they have in controling them.
Their refrains against the use of drones may or may not be valid, but when they ignore, become apologists for or divert blame for the mass murder being committed in their own countries by their own people, then their credibility and motivation in criticizing the drones is suspect..
Just one question, why drones dont operate in Afghanistan, never heard of extremists being killed there by drones, or maybe all the terrorists in Afghanistan have been wiped out by the Americans. Your justification for drones by blaming it on a diversionary tactics by Pakistan govt is really a very poor one. try harder. Whatever is happening in Pakistan does not give Americans right to commit massacre of innocents in Pakistan. Period. They should first try to clear Afghanistan from terrorists where they are fighting and not use diversionary tactics to use drones against Pakistani civilians to show that they are winning the unwinnable war.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Oh well...I guess anything can happen in make-believe world.
I have noticed that you dont generally respond to anyones actual point... Why do you even bother coming to the forum if you intend to ignore everything that doesnt reinforce what you believe?
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Ehsan Bhai, the correlation I'm drawing is going to back to the beginning if this thread when some people claimed that a Muslim couldn't possible be responsible for the attack on the British soldier, and that is was all a saazish. I'm not trying to downplay the loss of innocent lives in Afghanistan,, Iraq and Pakistan. But as a Muslim American I also cannot turn a blind eye to the loss of lives on American soul which was perpetrated by madmen in the name of Islam. My husband is a pilot by profession and was investigated for 9 months after Sept 11 all because he trained at the same flight school as one of the Arab Muslim hijackers. So when I hear or read people say that "a Muslim couldn't possibly do that" or "tho kya huwa, America nai humaray saat kuch kum nahin kiya hai" it does make me shake my head
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Just heard David Cameron’s statement on the incident. His comments address the issue without inflaming the situation further. Good call :k: It will cool down the simmering emotions that may have otherwise led to domestic strife.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Just one question, why drones dont operate in Afghanistan, never heard of extremists being killed there by drones, or maybe all the terrorists in Afghanistan have been wiped out by the Americans. Your justification for drones by blaming it on a diversionary tactics by Pakistan govt is really a very poor one. try harder. Whatever is happening in Pakistan does not give Americans right to commit massacre of innocents in Pakistan. Period. They should first try to clear Afghanistan from terrorists where they are fighting and not use diversionary tactics to use drones against Pakistani civilians to show that they are winning the unwinnable war.
Because the Taliban and Al Qaeda have taken refuge in Pakistan. Afghanistan, the US has control on the ground and can send their soldiers in for the fight, hence dont need drones. Not so in Pakistan, except in the case of OBL, an exception, not a rule. Al Qaeda and Taliban took refuge in Pakistans FATA because it is beyond the reach of the US... Except through drones.
Sure if America (according to you) is massacring innocent civilians, then lets openly condemn them. But then why do you not condemn the Taliban? Why do yo not fight them? Why do you allow them to murder? If you dont condemn your own society, then what credibility in condemning the US ? Who gives you the right to critisize America when you allow your own people to die at the hands of butchers?
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Whatever happens within Pakistan does not in any way, shape, or form make it okay for there to be drone attacks that kill indiscriminately. The ratio of suspects killed vs. Innocent civilians killed is so vast.
The extremists flying the drones, and the extremists they're targeting have more in common than they realize. Both have a rationale for their actions. Both are so wrong from a life-lost perspective.
The point, was that you can call them what you like, but if your not willing to acknowledge the faults of your own nation, of your own people and govt, then you have no right to criticize anyone else.
If Pakistanis arent protesting the death of 100's of Hazaras, innocent men women and children from across the country, then why should anyone give them any attention for protesting drone strikes? If you condemn americans for drones, but a give a pass to the Taliban and other extremists, then the only conclusion to draw is that your concern is only with Americans doing the killing. If Muslims were doing the killing, no one would care.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Because the Taliban and Al Qaeda have taken refuge in Pakistan. Afghanistan, the US has control on the ground and can send their soldiers in for the fight, hence dont need drones. Not so in Pakistan, except in the case of OBL, an exception, not a rule. Al Qaeda and Taliban took refuge in Pakistans FATA because it is beyond the reach of the US... Except through drones.
Sure if America (according to you) is massacring innocent civilians, then lets openly condemn them. But then why do you not condemn the Taliban? Why do yo not fight them? Why do you allow them to murder? If you dont condemn your own society, then what credibility in condemning the US ? Who gives you the right to critisize America when you allow your own people to die at the hands of butchers?
After more than a decade they are now *negotiating * with the same terrorists which they went in to eliminate with all guns blazing, so your argument that they can eliminate them by ground forces is not valid as ground realities are quite different As for Taliban I think everyone condemns them and this cancer spread into Pakistan once the Americans failed to cleanse Afghanistan properly and they ran into Pakistan As for why Pakistan has not been able to eliminate them, you need to look at history and tell me who has been able to achieve anything in the frontier areas for centuries and even the so called super powers (Russia and America) have had a bloody nose there, so why blame Pakistan only.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Just want to clarify, because I feel it necessary to shed any doubt in my point of view.
These two individuals committed a grave crime by their actions, and have only brought more negativity to Islam. The same goes for Tamerlans of Boston.
It's very strange that they all arrive, and live in their respective countries, enjoy the amenities and privileges that may or may not be present to them in their native nations, and then they commit crimes against the very nation where they've taken residency? It is hypocrisy. That's not the Islam that I'm fimiliar with. A good muslim will raise his voice against the wrong, but will not kill an innocent human being. Maybe my Islam is flawed.
This phenomenon has always puzzled me. So in whatever I've said, I in no way endorse the illegitimate actions of these individuals to their generous host countries. The issues surrounding the world are truly troublesome, but integrity dictates that they should go back to the home country and join the Armed Forces and fight with discipline, not as rogue agents of murder and mayhem. Allah does not like those who transgress.
The issue surrounding their actions aren't exactly black and white; there are a lot of dynamics in place some known, some unknown.
But it should be a no-brainer to condemn killing of any innocent persons anywhere in the world regardless of nationality.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Not directly. But Drones are used in other countries besides Pakistan as well. Yemen is also known to be under the scope of drones.
Again, Pakistanis DO condemn the killing of Hazaras. You’re confusing the public with the Government Officials who have proven to be utterly incompetent in enforcing the laws that are in place, and thus have since been given the boot from being re-elected with a majority.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
I apologize for indulging in making this a Pakistani issue, everyone. Lets please try to keep it topic-centric. All posts unrelated to the topic at-hand may be moved to Pakistan Affairs for a continued discussion on that point of view. Thank you.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Again, Pakistanis DO condemn the killing of Hazaras. Y*ou're confusing the public with the Government Officials* who have proven to be utterly incompetent in enforcing the laws that are in place, and thus have since been given the boot from being re-elected with a majority.
That's the question for a lot of people, why such a huge discrepancy between the elected leaders and the general population. Some will say it's because people don't feel strongly enough to bring about the change; others will say they agree with the leadership and therefore are happy and finally the rest will say they are unable (no fair chance to make real change for one reason or another including that US plays a financial role in placing their puppets in the political leadership).
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Wait a minute mister. You say USA has control on the ground? Where is your solid evidence? Let's not get carried away.
Because the Taliban and Al Qaeda have taken refuge in Pakistan. Afghanistan, the US has control on the ground and can send their soldiers in for the fight, hence dont need drones. Not so in Pakistan, except in the case of OBL, an exception, not a rule. Al Qaeda and Taliban took refuge in Pakistans FATA because it is beyond the reach of the US... Except through drones.
Sure if America (according to you) is massacring innocent civilians, then lets openly condemn them. But then why do you not condemn the Taliban? Why do yo not fight them? Why do you allow them to murder? If you dont condemn your own society, then what credibility in condemning the US ? Who gives you the right to critisize America when you allow your own people to die at the hands of butchers?
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Tauba hai. Baat kahan se kahan legai hn aap.
How in the world does 911 connect to Pakistan and Pakistanis.
This. Exactly.
I, as a born and bred American, would LOVE nothing more than for the US to stop policing the rest of the world and concentrate on domestic issues...HOWEVER, as a person who was directly effected by 9/11, every time I hear someone say that the attacks on the twin towers were a Jewish plot/conspiracy to make Muslims look bad while I watch news after news about the Shia genocide that persists in Pakistan, the madness that had engulfed Karachi and the unbearable loadshedding in Punjab while these fat, corrupt politicians feed off of the poor and innocent, it makes me wonder where the blame should really lie.
Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street
Chalo ab 'radical islam' bhi koi cheez hoti hai. facepalm
I'm not in anyway condoning America's foreign policy or drone strikes, let's be clear ab
out that. However, I agree with Ghostie & Med911 here.
The "blame Obama/America for everything" argument is getting really old. And this is rampant all over the Muslim world, so I'm not pointing a finger just at Pakistan here, but it's become too easy to blame the "West" for everything.
Pakistan was founded as a safe haven for Muslims, yet how is that working out so far? Muslims are shedding the blood of Muslims right and left on Pakistani soil...radical Islam is spreading like wild fire yet it's protected and enabled...US is condemned for drone strikes yet the government is taken no steps to cut off their own dependency on US Foreign Aid..the same goes for the Middle East..I had this debate with a group of friends awhile back about how incredulous it is that KSA/Jordan/Egypt/Syria are all in the position to end the plight and suffering of Palestine yet they don't do a damn thing...and the answer I got back (from a Pakistani) was "America won't let them". Ahhhh...okay.
