Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
JC decision report is a huge blow to PTI and to Imran Khan. I am in Pakistan these days and general perception is that Khan has lost its credibility due to his U-turns, habit of attacking opponents without any proof, blaming anyone for anything, use of foul language and complete lack of political judgement.
Sure, misappropriations did take place in the election but the point to be noted is that Imran and PTI were claiming that an organized rigging took place in 2013 on a massive scale but that particular allegation has been completely rejected by the commission.
From JC report, it has become obvious that PTI completely failed to provide any judicial evidence and in the mean process has been humiliated to no end. Now some of its supporters are saying that organized rigging did take place but this kind of organized rigging cannot be proved in courts...
ok fine, then why the hell Khan was insisting on forming a commission? didnt he and his legal team know beforehand that they wont be able to prove it in the court? anyone with slight commonsense would have collected solid proofs first and then asked for a coimmission. was khan and PTI leadership so stupid?
so there are some serious questions on khan's credibility and ability to handle issues. Khan himself has always praised the current chief justice, so it wont be easy for Imran to start defaming him.
it is also a legitimate question now that since PTI never had any solid proof for organized rigging, why the hell they staged the dharana drama and fooled its own supporters and stalled the country for 4 months? it has now become clear that Khan was playing in the hands of few establishment players and that is why he was asking for umpire kee ungliee.
I am sure PTI and its supporters will come out of this huge shock soon and will start coming up with new theories but the fact of the matter is that they are now playing on a very weak wicket on election issue.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Ayan is not free she was released on bail. The charges are still there.
Its so funny how PTI machinery is generating tons of memes on social media linking ayyan ali's case to this vierdict of commission mocking the courts.. some people just never learn :)
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
OK now lets get to PTI
Ist, Imran has shown a lot of courage and moral strength by accepting JC report without an ifs and buts (at least for now and i truly hope he does not start defaming current cheif justice of pakistan). This is right move in current circumstances
second, no matter what PMLN and PPP say, today PTI is the second biggest political reality in Pakistan and for sure in Punjab. PPP has completely vanished in punjab and therefore any anti-PMLN voter has no choice but to go to PTI. PTI shd now focus on performing well in KPK, organizing its party in punjab, reformulating its political strategy and and getting ready for next elections. Get rid of folks like shk rasheed. PMLN will make many more serious mistakes in coming days and PTI will get its chance again.
we need a healthy and strong PTI in opposition...for sure.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
didnt he and his legal team know beforehand that they wont be able to prove it in the court? anyone with slight commonsense would have collected solid proofs first and then asked for a coimmission. was khan and PTI leadership so stupid?
it is also a legitimate question now that since PTI never had any solid proof for organized rigging, why the hell they staged the dharana drama and fooled its own supporters and stalled the country for 4 months? it has now become clear that Khan was playing in the hands of few establishment players and that is why he was asking for umpire kee ungliee.
If God forbid, your home is robbed while you were home....you saw the robbers, you know what they took......and then went to the police to register a case......what evidence will you be able to give to the police? As far as the police is concerned, they didnt see what you saw, so its simply your word. So how or why would they proceed?
Answer is that they would believe your word based on circumstantial evidence (ransacked house etc), and then they would deploy their investigators in order to prove that circumstantial evidence.
The JC was supposed to do that as well. In the interest of justice, they were supposed to deploy all investigative resources (IB, FIA, ISI, whatever) to investigate the allegations further, something they intentionally did not do. Expecting PTI to provide all the evidence is similar to police expecting the same of you.
Now every tom dick and harry is talking about establishment claims...question is, were they sleeping all these years? Why did they choose to claim this after the JC verdict?
PTI had no choice but to accept the verdict, as they had pre-committed to that. But that doesnt mean we have to agree with it as well.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Its so funny how PTI machinery is generating tons of memes on social media linking ayyan ali's case to this vierdict of commission mocking the courts.. some people just never learn :)
Nasir ul Mulk like Chief Justice Pakiatan got after decades !
[RIGHT]-تحریکِ انصاف کی کہانی-
ہمارے پاس ثبوت ہیں-
نہیں ہیں-
مل گئے ہیں-
ابھی نہیں ملے-
جمع کروا دئیےہیں-
بہت جلدجمع کروائیں گے-
عدالت ثبوت خود ڈھونڈے-
ہمارےساتھ اتنی ناصافی کیوں؟[/RIGHT]
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Not to redirect thread to different direction, but you could not be more wrong. Democracy has nothing to do with literacy rate, but it represents will of the people. You don't need to be educated to know what/who represents your best interest & only you're judge of that. This this type of emotional tirade does no one any good & nor is blaming democracy of failure of system-a system that was never been allowed to be matured by military who was/is all things that matters.
How come democracy works so well for other countries that are not literate? India, our very own neighbor with so many similarities (not to mention the fact starting from the same endeavors) fared so well? The first thing that comes to mind is the military intervention in politics we have which they never had. Yes, we cant just blame the beloved Generals alone but in India the politicians were given a chance to get seasoned and learn from their mistakes and eventually turn into great administrators. In our case, we made sure no one got the opportunity to do that. You also eliminate many aspiring to be good politicians when you start a decade long military regime. Yes, feudal land lords etc. are bad but keep in mind the military which almost ruled the country as long as the short stinted democracies could have passed decent land reforms and meaningful measures to curb the ill effects of feudalism. Unlike their democractic counterparts, they enjoyed decades of unopposed rule too.
That is not true actually. Even in the muslim world, democracy has been a relative success in societies that are more advanced and literate than us. Examples: Malaysia & Turkey.
As for India they have turned a corner (economically) during the last 8 to 10 years thanks to a 40% strong educated middle-class (or around 500 million Indians). So education is very important. Corruption and mismanagement is still endemic in India (although compared to Pakistan, there is less corruption in India). Even now the general public perception of politicians is not a favourable one in India. They are seen as corrupt and untrustworthy people. In most hindi films politicians are portrayed as rogues or thieves!
And how long are we going to hide the failings and shortcomings of our politicians by using sugarcoated phrases like 'democracy has not been allowed to flourish in Pakistan by the military'; 'worst democracy is better than best dictatorship.' blah blah.. Yes the process takes time but the reality is our politicians have shown neither commitment nor willingness to mend their haramkhor and corrupt ways, if the last 7 years are anything to go by (present PML-N is only marginally better than present PPP). So what make us think that they will change and strengthen the institutions if given more time. Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? To hell with such rhetoric and BS.
Democracy loses moral authority the moment elected representatives start indulging in corrupt practices and stop doing what they were elected for in the first place. Besides it doesn't work for everyone. Iraq was more stable under Saddam and although Gaddafi was a dictator, under him there was a welfare system (or kind of) in Libya with free health and education for all and many Libyans were happy.
And I for one believe that a parliamentary system of democracy is more corrupt than a presidential one. In a parliamentary system one often has to tell blatant lies to the public in the name of party discipline. In a presidential system the president is the final authority. He decides whether he wants to have a cabinet comprised of politicians, technocrats or a combination of the two. He does not have to worry about keeping his partners happy by giving them ministries or bribes.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI’s claims for election rigging
‘Your friend’ IK has praised CJ but criticised ECP though he has raised a valid Q
‘An apple a day keeps the doctor away’
In Khan sb’s case ‘A criticism a day keeps me fit and healthy’
Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf chairman Imran Khan said that it is not him but Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif who should apologise over the judicial commission’s report, as all political parties are in agreement that there was rigging during the 2013 general elections.
In a much-awaited response to the report, Imran lashed out at the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP), saying “ECP had no idea of how the elections were being conducted.” Quoting the judicial commission report, he said “ECP had no coordination with provincial election commissions."
Imran appreciated the performance of the judicial commission and said there was no conspiracy and the military’s leadership was not involved.
Also read: There was no rigging at any level in 2013 elections, says Nawaz](http://www.dawn.com/news/1195878) “The verdict it (JC) has given against ECP will definitely help the future course of elections in the country,” he said.
Imran said he was a bit disappointed because the chief justice conducted the probe so well and their expectations were high. “We expected him not to leave it half finished.” The PTI chairman lauded the chief justice saying “The chief justice brilliantly conducted this probe. He was alert, listening to every word, remembering every detail. But we had higher hopes."
“We accepted the results for bringing transparency and for the sake of democracy’s future.” Imran, however, did raise some questions, asking “Why were the Returning Officers (ROs) in Punjab given the carte blanche to decide how many extra ballots to print. Under what law was it justified?”
“Why were the ROs taking decisions in Punjab, while in other provinces the decisions were taken by the provincial election commissions?” he questioned.
Know more: JC finds 2013 elections ‘fair and in accordance with law’](http://www.dawn.com/news/1195875)
“Initially I wanted them to open only four constituencies as a sample case to probe alleged rigging, but it took them a year to do so,” said the PTI chief.
“Why did it take them two years and four months to get a judicial commission report?”
Also read: Imran accepts poll inquiry commission’s report](http://www.dawn.com/news/1196032)
Responding to a question, Imran said his party will form a strong opposition in the National Assembly and went on to add that “the whole country will see what real change is with the examples we are setting in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP)."
“PML-N forced us to initiate street protests. We accept the JC’s decision but we will be the most formidable opposition for them in the assembly,” he said.
Imran had earlier refrained from commenting on the findings of the judicial commission report on Thursday, saying he would only comment on it after reading it, since he was not given a copy of it.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
That is not true actually. Even in the muslim world, democracy has been a relative success in societies that are more advanced and literate than us. Examples: Malaysia & Turkey.
As for India they have turned a corner (economically) during the last 8 to 10 years thanks to a 40% strong educated middle-class (or around 500 million Indians). So education is very important. Corruption and mismanagement is still endemic in India (although compared to Pakistan, there is less corruption in India). Even now the general public perception of politicians is not a favourable one in India. They are seen as corrupt and untrustworthy people. In most hindi films politicians are portrayed as rogues or thieves!
And how long are we going to hide the failings and shortcomings of our politicians by using sugarcoated phrases like 'democracy has not been allowed to flourish in Pakistan by the military'; 'worst democracy is better than best dictatorship.' blah blah.. Yes the process takes time but the reality is our politicians have shown neither commitment nor willingness to mend their haramkhor and corrupt ways, if the last 7 years are anything to go by (present PML-N is only marginally better than present PPP). So what make us think that they will change and strengthen the institutions if given more time. Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? To hell with such rhetoric and BS.
Democracy loses moral authority the moment elected representatives start indulging in corrupt practices and stop doing what they were elected for in the first place. Besides it doesn't work for everyone. Iraq was more stable under Saddam and although Gaddafi was a dictator, under him there was a welfare system (or kind of) in Libya with free health and education for all and many Libyans were happy.
And I for one believe that a parliamentary system of democracy is more corrupt than a presidential one. In a parliamentary system one often has to tell blatant lies to the public in the name of party discipline. In a presidential system the president is the final authority. He decides whether he wants to have a cabinet comprised of politicians, technocrats or a combination of the two. He does not have to worry about keeping his partners happy by giving them ministries or bribes.
You are citing incorrect facts (India's becoming a power in in the last 8 or so years) and using examples like Bollywood to pass your point about the India. Then you move to Iraq to prove your point which is a far fetched poor example of Iraq which just went through an invasion and is a hotbed of mercenaries. Alright, assuming what you said is all true let's bring in the military again for another decade and see what happens. Let's just forget we already tried that several times before and how miserably that failed. Also, those that are waiting for Imran Khan to come change things (and they have every right to aspire and hope for that) need to realize that Imran wont be hand picked as a PM by a military general (despite his insistence). He will only come to power if these people you call jahil and illiterate vote for him.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Right now Imran will stay quiet and just accept the JC inquiry for he had expressed full confidence in it (the COAS was a witness to that, so he would have to do some explaining). However, as a political strategy he will continue to make some remarks here and there to criticize the JC inquiry and then finally he will start badmouthing and go after the present CJ (like he did before). This is ofcourse if he has not learned from the previous instances where he went after someone, completely dropped the ball and then recently those people took it to a new level by dragging him to court where he either had to apologize or deny he said anything.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Right now Imran will stay quiet and just accept the JC inquiry for he had expressed full confidence in it (the COAS was a witness to that, so he would have to do some explaining). However, as a political strategy he will continue to make some remarks here and there to criticize the JC inquiry and then finally he will start badmouthing and go after the present CJ (like he did before). This is ofcourse if he has not learned from the previous instances where he went after someone, completely dropped the ball and then recently those people took it to a new level by dragging him to court where he either had to apologize or deny he said anything.
He is Asghar Khan II, done exactly the same and result was no different, unless he performs in KPK and get rid of rotten eggs like SMQ, SM and the lot... there is slim chance that he will do anything different of what he has been doing...
After Elections 2013, he went in agitation... issue was Drone Attacks, then he took the performance of the govt of Punjab and ISB and had rally(s) in Lahore... and when not entertained, he upon getting signals from Pasha and Zaheer ul Islam, came out of shell on 19 April 2014 and continued till 16th of December..
I have strong feelings that he won't learn anything... he have already started Taliban thing... but wait until he comes with something new to cry about...
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
[quote]
And I for one believe that a parliamentary system of democracy is more corrupt than a presidential one. In a parliamentary system one often has to tell blatant lies to the public in the name of party discipline. In a presidential system the president is the final authority. He decides whether he wants to have a cabinet comprised of politicians, technocrats or a combination of the two. He does not have to worry about keeping his partners happy by giving them ministries or bribes.
[/quote]
And what chance do you see for that happening? Do you see a political convention or constitutional assembly now to draft a new constitution?
I do agree with a presidential system since pakistani parties are run like dictatorship for good or worse.
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
And how long are we going to hide the failings and shortcomings of our politicians by using sugarcoated phrases like 'democracy has not been allowed to flourish in Pakistan by the military'; 'worst democracy is better than best dictatorship.' blah blah.. Yes the process takes time but the reality is our politicians have shown neither commitment nor willingness to mend their haramkhor and corrupt ways, if the last 7 years are anything to go by (present PML-N is only marginally better than present PPP). So what make us think that they will change and strengthen the institutions if given more time. Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? To hell with such rhetoric and BS.
So, what is your alternative? Military dictatorship or complete chaos? Also, please tell us what was literacy rate of UK when magna carta was signed?
[quote]
Democracy loses moral authority the moment elected representatives start indulging in corrupt practices and stop doing what they were elected for in the first place. Besides it doesn't work for everyone. Iraq was more stable under Saddam and although Gaddafi was a dictator, under him there was a welfare system (or kind of) in Libya with free health and education for all and many Libyans were happy.
[/quote]
Seriously? Are Saddam and Gaddafi your best arguments against democracy? Do you not realized that individuals never last & when all things mortal come to an inevitable end this is what happens (eg today's Iraq and Libya and Pakistan when it lost eastern half)? The reason Saddam and Gaddafi managed to keep things under control was through fear and outright elimination of any opposition however minor. Is that what you want in Pakistan, too? You know we tried that out with Zia & Zia's monster is what is trying to destroy very foundation of the state today. And do you think Saddam and Gadaffi are role models that we should follow b/c they provided some level of stability in their countries?
Re: Breaking: Judicial commission rejects PTI's claims for election rigging
Right now Imran will stay quiet and just accept the JC inquiry for he had expressed full confidence in it (the COAS was a witness to that, so he would have to do some explaining). However, as a political strategy he will continue to make some remarks here and there to criticize the JC inquiry and then finally he will start badmouthing and go after the present CJ (like he did before). This is ofcourse if he has not learned from the previous instances where he went after someone, completely dropped the ball and then recently those people took it to a new level by dragging him to court where he either had to apologize or deny he said anything.
