Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Peace burqaposhx
I fail to see your argument ... so I will reiterate ... Stopping with the hand will equate to something like a litigation case against the creators of this film. Stopping with the hand does not mean violence and burning retail establishments .......
Peace Psyah. As long your interpretation of "stopping with hands" is to go to court, that's fine.
I hope kfc burning crowd accepts you as their peer (guide).
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Oh dear, do you read the entire comment or post after reading only that what you quote? I am suggesting the conflation of violent acts with my stance is sloppy at best, and I am construing such a comparison as an insult. Apologies if I misunderstood...
That's not what I was talking about...or did you forget your lecture above on tolerance of Jews and Christians?
Present a coherent position, and an actual rebuke and you'll notice the discussion will indeed move forward.
Oh dear...I already pointed it out...you on the one hand accusing my stance on Jesus/Moses being "Muslim" as somehow intolerant to Jews and Christans, and subsequently lecturing me on the importance of tolerance...while at the same time not saying a word against Wilders, who has indeed called for a ban on the Quran. You assume it's intolerant. My question is based on other muslims I have spoken with believe Moses and Jesus to be muslim in religion. I say no.. This is question, why so many think so , they refute they were jewish.
I am suggesting, as I have already stated and you have so conveniently ignored, the suggestion that you can ignore Wilders past speeches, etc. as somehow irrelevant to the motive of his newest movie (without evidence to a shift in his stance) is disingenuous at best. Again, it would be nice if you don't dance around the points..but tackle them head on. And spare me the indignation.
There is nothing disingenious. I have met many intolerant muslims in my own community. Many. IThe movie Fitna has not been seen yet. Therefore, my primary statement is: he has every right to make the film and have it viewed. There is nothing duplicit in my stance in supporting Freedom of Speech in a democratic country without submitting to religious ideaology and venom.
Perhaps its time that many muslims question and rebel enmass against Islamic governments who seem more readily to subjugate, suppress and use archaic dogma in metting out punishments such as stoning, beheadings, burqa wearing, forcing hijab (which is cultural not religious) and permitting the growth of islamofascists and extremists rise. Why non muslims must pay zinya, which is basic extortion tax, and forbidden to have a church in an Islamic country like Saudi yet they expect mosques in the west. And why madrassas allowed by Islamic governments to operate knowing full well the hate filled curriculum and still they permit them to educate students by using the Quran and referencing the Quran in evil deeds and pursuits such as suicide martyrdom. Ban the Quran or is it ban the way Quran is being used today? A lot less cave and a lot more progressive modernism is required. Perhaps a higharchy like the Catholic church is required in the Islamic faith as any nutbar can read the Quran if he is literate and influence suicide bombers based on quotes from the Quran.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
You know there is an old saying that "Neem Hakim khatra jaan, and neem Mulla Khatra Imaan"
A hakeem with little health knowledge is dangerous, * *and so is the religious scholar without an iota of contextual interpretation of 1400 years old sayings.
It is common these days for the self-proclaimed "strong-Iman-ed" 20 year olds to go around shouting fiery slogans, start burning KFC, or explode bombs in the public places. Growing a long beard also comes in handy.
FYI. This 21st century, where there are legal codes, and laws of land that you must follow.
You can't just go around and "stop the evil" with your hands i.e. strongest Iman. Why? because it is the recipe of anarchy in a society where vigilantism rules. Look at Islamic Jannats of Somalia, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistani Western frontier.
It is imperative that people keep this hadith in the books where it belongs so that only legal scholars could interpret it.
FYI. When it comes to the law-enforcement these days, you cannot use your hands, or use your mouth on someone to stop them from doing something. The only exceptions to this rule are the law-enforcement officers with proper authorization from the authorities.
And yes start living in 21st century please!
Again please keep these vigilanti-stic warnings and threats to yourself. No one is "accepting" this film just because it is out there.
The guy made the movie the way he saw this world. If someone doesn't like the movie, then don't see it. In fact don't even talk about it.
And if you still can't stop fidgeting, then go ahead and learn to make a movie yourself.
Excellent post burqa----- I highlited in red the parts I second in thought, A side note, a dear intimate of mine was in Bosnia about 2002 or so. He discovered Saudi was paying the young men there to grow beards. Go figure , money to grow a beard.
As for bombing KFC , heck if they can't find it a local school of girls will do, chicks all the same to extremists, islamofascists and mad mullahs and crazy clerics. Heck they go to markets filled with women and children, they go to mosques to bomb, so you can see burqa----, its not only KFC its any place they can kill, kill, kill and kill like religious foaming pyschotic zealots to get their 72 virgins.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Peace Psyah. As long your interpretation of "stopping with hands" is to go to court, that's fine.
I hope kfc burning crowd accepts you as their peer (guide).
Peace again burqaposhx
The KFC arsonists are people who have essentially reacted with their hearts, the target of people I had in mind were the majority of Muslims. It is true that we should dislike such slander and debasement, but it is also true that we should contain ourselves and react with wisdom.
The reaction should be 'apparent' as possible ... stopping by the hand thus refers to more than protest and voice, it refers to taking measures to stop it. I request all Muslims to try to be disliking towards any outside attempt to slander Islam.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
When no one here has even remotely demonstrated the kind of vitriol that leads to burning down of KFCs, or what not, (God spare the fried chicken)...why the hell is it being mentioned, as if we somehow support such things or are influential among those who do such things?
And those who would bandy about such lunatic incidents with glee to (distastefully) further their own position, they would be kind enough to note that allegedly religious types are NOT the only kind of people who (in small numbers to be sure) partake in such things...to wit, the destruction after BBs death (which during those few weeks was more violent and destructive than any Islamist terrorist attack).
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
^ So what, pretend things like this don’t exist?
**Bin Laden threatens attack in Europe
**
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
What is it about my post that isn't clear? Do I suggest these things don't exist? NO. Should it be relevent to those who object to the film, but don't endorse such views? NO.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Is it relevant to those who make such films? YES.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Peace again burqaposhx
...... but it is also true that we should contain ourselves and react with wisdom. ......
OK wa-alikum peace psyah! But did you care to read your own post when you said
*** in an Islamic state this behaviour is blasphemous, libellous, inflamatory, a great fitna, and will be dealt with using the maximum punishment of death.***
That's hardly a reaction "with wisdom". These are precisely the jingoistic statements that bring so much bad name to Muslims. And then there is this audacity to start every post with peace (or may be hypocrisy)
I wonder if this "death to others" crowd or simply "death-eaters" care to read about our Messenger pbuh as to how he reacted to people in his time. He never killed someone who threw garbage on him on daily basis. Why? because for him living good life without violence was much more important. He spoke truth but death-eaters ignore that. He was honest in every which way but the death eaters don't give a damn. He was tolerant to others, and off course death eaters are also very very tolerant. NOT!
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Is it relevant to those who make such films? YES.
What the hell does that have to do with those of us that object to it, and don't espouse such violent viewS? NOTHING...and are you the person who made the film? NO.
So why bring it up in THIS forum? No good reason.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Is it relevant to those who make such films? YES.
If the violence wasn't so prevalent within the Islamic faith it would not be relevant to make the film but since a great deal of violence does exist in many forms: in the non-violent tactic of not wanting girls educated , keeping women in coverings from head to toe as non entities , and subjugating them to 1400 year old mysoginistic and chauvinistic attitudes in guise of religion
*in the violent tactic *of stonings, beheadings, suicide martyrdom and video taping these heinous crimes proudly while chanting allah akbar
then yes it is all relevant as to why Wilders would have the idea and impetus to make the film as he did. Submission through fear.
The prosecution, and subjugation of women in Islam gave Van Gogh the idea and impetus also to make a film: Submission
ANd in both films the topic is of how the Quran and islam has been used to promote both non violent and violent tactics against many , many, many, many upon thousands of muslims.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
^
A great deal of violence exists in non-violent forms...okay, now I've heard everything.
Now I wonder...would banning the Quran count as non-violent violence....hmmm....
[quote]
Then yes it is all relevant as to why Wilders would have the idea and impetus to make the film as he did. Submission through fear.
[/quote]
LOL...do you even read before you post? We weren't talking about WIlders' motive.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Violence does not have to be a physical act. Think outside of the box, there is depth to understanding There is violence by denying, chastising, demoralizing, or an oration to influence an act .
Sticks and stones may break bones, but deeds and words can harm the mind into a debiliating state. ie Charles Manson. never committed the murders himself.
Perhaps not a discussion of Wilders directly but the thread exists because of the film, Fitna, therefore , my post was giving a valid reason to why Wilder's would even consider the effort in making the film or why anyone would be interested in making a film of the same genre.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
What the hell does that have to do with those of us that object to it, and don't espouse such violent viewS? NOTHING...and are you the person who made the film? NO.
So why bring it up in THIS forum? No good reason.
Because such actions and views ARE THE REASON THESE TYPE FILMS ARE BEING MADE which is the reason this thread even exists.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
I said i’d retire from this discussion altogether. I’m holding onto my words.
Just want to turn you attention to this fella’s actual views on the religion ISLAM…and it’s not just about a movie. It’s the mentality and the purpose this man has…
G’Day…
Here ya go:
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
He sees problems at the way Islam is being used in most islamic countries and how it has been missued and used by turbaned tyrrants to control and suppress population. If an Aghanistan can easily occur (example amongst many) in the 21st century --- well it's given a great deal of weight to Wilder's view and sentiments. Even Wafa Sultan has critiques of Islam and how it has been used and she is a muslim woman of high standing and education.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
^^ Ubs! There is a nutcase behavior going on by the governments run by Muslims. And that is open for debate.
The scope of this thread is pretty limited. We are just debating if a Muslim should tolerate such films or books? Or it is the duty of every Muslim to pick up an axe and chop of the head of every blasphemous writer or film maker? Or should we pay any attention to the fatwas issued in such circumstances.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
Because such actions and views ARE THE REASON THESE TYPE FILMS ARE BEING MADE which is the reason this thread even exists.
Pay attention. The question was why was the KFC burners used as a rebuke to FORUM MEMBERS who disagree with the film...it was not brought up as a 'point' Wilders made, but in effect a way of another participant on this forum to shut another member up...a feeble attempt at guilt by association.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
I guess he remembers Nov 15, 2005 In Pakistan, Karachi,
KARACHI, Pakistan (AP) — A powerful car bomb exploded outside the front entrance to a K F C restaurant in the southern Pakistan city of Karachi early Tuesday, killing at least three people and injuring 12 others, police said.
The blast, which went off about 8:45 a.m., badly damaged the restaurant, part of the global American fast food chain, burning several cars along the street in front.
Mushtaq Shah, Karachi's police chief, told reporters the bomb was concealed in a car parked outside the restaurant.
Another police official, Sanaullah Abbasi, said three people were killed in the blast and 12 injured.
Re: Blasphemous film ready to release
There is absolutely no doubt that Wilders is a genius. Without making anything he has proven just how moronic, short tempered and irrational some (read:most) Muslims can be.