Blasphemous film ready to release

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Blasphemous film ready to release

I in no way shape or form suggested that. I'm simply trying to suggest that the claims that Christ and Moses were "Muslim" is a qualitative statement, not one of inter-sect politics...we're not trying to "own" the prophets, merely describe them in a way that Muslims feel is theologically correct. And we mean it with the utmost respect and reverance the Prophets of God.

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. Of course they believe in GOD, but not in Allah as muslims presribe their faith.

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Sigh...since when is GOD a neutral term for a diety? There is only one true "God", the God of Adam, the God of Abraham...this is what Muslims believe. And that all Prophets are the prophets of this one true God. This is basic Islamic theology...it's not to be correlated to a statement on the nature of the followers of any of these Prophets.

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Many muslims say moses and jesus are muslim but I don't see how that is true, even if it is still monotheistic veneration of same. Muslims did not even exist in their era.

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...again, in this context "Muslim" is used to describe the nature of belief, NOT as a term to describe a political, social, ethnic, or whatever grouping that has a set identity.

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Based on this premise , islam then can infer all people who are jews and christians during moses and post jesus tobe be muslim as they venerate same god. I interpret this as subliminal disregard for the real religions these people followed and expanisionism via Quran of denying other faiths

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Read what I said above. There is no latent attack on anyone here. If anything, a respectful distance. Obviously Jews and Christians have their own theology...it's not as if they respect our stance or consider our conceptions of any of the Prophets as "true". And in no way shape or form can this be an "expansionist" thing...do note that is a political motive.

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cknowledge their socio-economic existence but not accept their ways of GOd worship to me questions what is preached as islamic tolerance?

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Hoooolldd on a second...you just spent a bloody good portion of this thread defending a man who demeans and defames Islam...and yet we Muslims are supposed to outright accept, as equal and valid, other theologies and religious thoughts? No thanks...take your duplicity elsewhere. I wan't none of it. In no way shape or form do I, in form or intent, attack other people....you defend people who do, and I get an earful for a respectful distance?

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I am defending free speech over religious dogma. And yes, I question my own faith - what has been taught to me and what I will continue to learn. I question many practices of islamic countries and how women have not fared well, and how religious minorities are not encouraged but tolerated. And this all finds basis in one root religious ideology..................................and it makes me wonder why, why, why, and why.................why does it have to be so......

Kayani calls emergency corps meeting
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You're dogmatic about free speech.

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And yes, I question my own faith - what has been taught to me and what I will continue to learn.

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Along what lines? I only see duplicity in your stance. I mean, in your vapid defense of free speech you end up supporting a man who is guilty of the very thing you accuse me, or at least my opinions on the 'Muslimness' of Jesus and Moses, of inciting...

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I support not the man, but an idea or sentence expressed I find commonality of belief. I can not agree with everything a person says in total but in parts of their posts I can do so if I choose. It's my perogative as you in yours.

I have no defense as I need not one, :p the defense is used by that which I question.

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How quaint. So I suppose you do support his call for banning the Quran, or at least his alleged right to call for such a ban? And here you are lecturing me on tolerance.

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We are discussing his movie Fitna, correct? Have you seen it? I ask because you seem to criticize it before having seen and heard the movie. I do believe in democracy, free speech over religion. I do not agree with all things Geert WIlders has said and done but he has the right to make a movie. And until I see the movie I can only support the idea of his human inalienable right to make a film . Constructive and open dialogue comes after and not the spewing venom based on hearsay. And you know the viewpoint suicide bombers , theocratic regimes give to the world is not very flattering. I think Wilder's film will be much rhetoric and nothing new that the world tele-communications media and terrorist homevideo's haven't shown the world already.

Which celebrity have you been told you look like?
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^
I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. To support Wilders in one endeavor is to support him in all...if he is using his alleged right to free speech to promote hatred/discord towards Islam/Muslims, then you are in fact supporting him in his act..I know of no retraction from him on his stance, so it only follows that this movie is to further his anti-Muslim and anti-Islam agenda. There is no such thing as agreeing with his right to free speech and simultaneously abhorring the content of that speech altough that's a common cliche touted by libertarians and like-minded people. That's a silly fallacy that needs to be dispelled.

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^^^^To support him in one endeavour is support him in all.
Is this just a general assumption on one's support of an individual in general. Re-read what I wrote obviously you did not understand. Specifically, my last line previous to your above post.

I am actually looking forward to seeing FITNA. A great deal of vitriol and condemnation was thrown at the film by Theo Van Gogh, Submission, available at You Tube now.. It's very enlightening and is from the woman's perspective which did chagrin many many men. Many became particularly rabid but one in particular acted in a murderous butchery frenzy in the stabbing of Theo Van Gogh. Manly insecurities could be one reason for such a hate filled murder.

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where the hell is this movie anyway?

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*The extremists, the mad mullahs, crazy clerics and their islamofascists bent on world domination supporters have given Wilder's research material in abundance for his movie. *

Excerpts from Yahoo World News

MANSEHRA, Pakistan - Long-haired gunmen burst into the white stone building and killed four charity workers helping earthquake victims, then wrecked the office with grenades and set it on fire. Police came, but did not intervene.

In a tactic reminiscent of neighboring Afghanistan, Islamic militants are attacking aid groups in the Pakistan's volatile northwest, and local authorities appear incapable — or unwilling — to stop them.
The threat has forced several foreign agencies to scale back assistance to survivors of the October 2005 earthquake that killed at least 78,000 people and left 3 million homeless — risking the region's recovery from the worst natural disaster in the country's history.
The Feb. 25 attack on employees of Plan International, a British-based charity that focuses on helping children, was the worst in a series of threats and assaults on aid workers in the northern mountains where Taliban-style militants have expanded their reach in the past year.
Nearly a month later, menacing letters are still being sent to aid organizations. Although all four victims in Mansehra were Pakistani men, Islamic extremists despise the aid groups because they employ women and work for women's rights.
Local officials in Mansehra, who spoke on condition they not be identified for fear of retaliation, said letters from extremists distributed March 13 and 14 also warned schools to make sure girls are covered from head to toe and to avoid coeducation.

Police accuse a local militant, Mohiuddin Shakir, who goes by the alias Mujahid, of masterminding the attack last month on the aid office in Mansehra. He has not been arrested.
Shakir, a former member of an al-Qaida-linked group, has criminal charges against him in Pakistan dating back to 2002, including for murder, according to police records obtained by The Associated Press.
Shakir now leads a jihadist group called Lashkar-e-Ababeel, named after small birds that the Quran says threw stones to defeat an army of 60,000 warriors who sought to destroy Mecca in the 7th century.
Last summer, Shakir wrote a letter to newspapers warning international aid groups about hiring women and warning women to wear an all-encompassing veil.
Yet Abdul Ershad, an officer investigating the attack, said that as recently as late 2007, Shakir had a working arrangement with police in his hometown of Phulra not far from Mansehra.
Brig. Waqas Iqbal Raja, the chief security official for the Earthquake Reconstruction and Rehabilitation Agency, acknowledged a growing presence of extremists in the quake zone, including some militants displaced by an army offensive against supporters of a pro-Taliban cleric in neighboring Swat district.
"I wouldn't want to comment why he is still free. Since the attack, aid organizations have withdrawn their female field workers. Authorities are asking them to move their offices into a gated community in Mansehra with its own police post. ."

Pico--- as you so eloguently posted to promote hatred/discord towards Islam/Muslims,-- don't shoot the messenger, your muslim brothers in Islam are doing a fine job using the Quran, the sword, the bomb, the threats, etc to spread their version of a peaceful, tolerant, egalitarian islamic society.

oops, an Oxymoron ---egalitarian islamic society.

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^
LOL...I have never endorsed extremist views, and the conflation of their actions with my objection to Wilders stance is disingenuous at best...a rhetorical device no doubt to stifle debate and discussion...to silence those who disagree with you.

Don't nobody dare attack Wilders, a bigot no doubt...but since he's right about a handful of Muslims, we shouldn't dare attack him but those he himself attacks. But that's just the problem...Wilders isn't talking about some Muslims...he's talking about Islam, and all those who aspire to follow it's teachings. Support him all you like. Speaking of an egalitarian society, while backing a bigot...spare me.

You have yet to say a thing against this swine, but here you are lambesting me for some banal discussion on how Jesus and Moses could qualitatively be considered followers of Islam. You have yet to address this duplicity.

Get over childproofing, now petproof your home too!!!
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I did indeed understand what you wrote...

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To silence those who disagree with me. I am presenting my opines, if that leaves them speechless or dumbfounded well shucks. ( subliminal insecurities of belief)
Lambasting you? don't martyr yourself as I am not lambasting you as the topic is about geert's film and the right to freedom of speech, free will , and civil liberties of religion. Please , don't misconstrue for a moment I am lambasting you as I assure you if I was to lambast I would earn perhaps a couple dozen warning points. If anything I have encouraged you yet again to think and post a reply. Though it appears to me it's a circuitous debate with you.:)
What duplicity, am I writing in bilingual languages? Have I deviated from my thoughts or beliefs? No, the issue is not what I think of Geert Wilder's past speeches, quotes etc as he can be quite vitriolic but I support his right to present his movie. I am against censorship. Censorship only hides what is really beside you.
I believe the book you **must *read is the book other's want to ban. The movie you** must*** see is the movie other's want to ban. Demanded, it's your right to be informed. Once informed you have knowledge. And knowledge is power. How you use that knowledge is another thing. Really, what's there to be fearful of except fear itself. Sulafism needs to be discussed, islamofascists must be exposed . However, banning a book is not the solution. For there is much truth that needs to be dealt with and examinded no matter how holy or unholy.

And **Fitna **needs to be seen. Now more then ever. No cowering to threats which corrupt freedom of expression. Only religious despots, dictators and tyrrants flourish otherwise.

Random Calligraphers
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Oh dear, do you read the entire comment or post after reading only that what you quote? I am suggesting the conflation of violent acts with my stance is sloppy at best, and I am construing such a comparison as an insult. Apologies if I misunderstood...

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Lambasting you? don't martyr yourself as I am not lambasting you as the topic is about geert's film and the right to freedom of speech,

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That's not what I was talking about...or did you forget your lecture above on tolerance of Jews and Christians?

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If anything I have encouraged you yet again to think and post a reply. Though it appears to me it's a circuitous debate with you.:)

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Present a coherent position, and an actual rebuke and you'll notice the discussion will indeed move forward.

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What duplicity, am I writing in bilingual languages? Have deviated from my thoughts or beliefs?

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Oh dear...I already pointed it out...you on the one hand accusing my stance on Jesus/Moses being "Muslim" as somehow intolerant to Jews and Christans, and subsequently lecturing me on the importance of tolerance...while at the same time not saying a word against Wilders, who has indeed called for a ban on the Quran.

I am suggesting, as I have already stated and you have so conveniently ignored, the suggestion that you can ignore Wilders past speeches, etc. as somehow irrelevant to the motive of his newest movie (without evidence to a shift in his stance) is disingenuous at best. Again, it would be nice if you don't dance around the points..but tackle them head on. And spare me the indignation.

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Peace All

MashAllah! A very full thread. And SubhanAllah to all those comments. I have read this thread finally from the beginning ... It seems some Muslims are losing touch with their sense of 'positive' zeal in Islam.

The hadith which requires us to stop an evil with our hands, or else then with our mouths or else then at least to dislike that evil in our hearts which is the weakest of Iman speaks volumes against those Muslims who have said 'Personally they are not affected by this idea of the film'. The moment we accept this film then we have no real faith ... A dire warning!

I think the film has been given the best title ... a title it deserves ... fitna ... For in the Qur'an it states that fitna is worse than killing Surah 2:191 ... This is one of the verses that will be/is used by such people to attempt justifying their claims that Qur'an teaches intolerance. The truth is that it does teach intolerance for those who harm society. But that intolerance is an inner condition and Islam demands that we channel that intolerance to a process of allowing the accused some recluse to take back, to clarify, to reflect on and to denounce or apologise and then to serve or suffer punishment in the legislated manner to keep things civil.

Terrorism is a type of mischief (fitna) - because they are both inciteful activities. They lead on to mass murder which justifies why the Qur'an states the injustice of taking one life that creates the problem is far less than letting that problem proliferate. But at the same time it views both killing and fitna as negatives.

People know that they can affect Muslims where it will hurt them by defaming the Word of Allah (SWT) - Qur'an. (In contemplative thought - they fail to realise how Allah (SWT) will Reward them!) But by using our soft spot to prod us knowing full well that it will cause global unrest is classed as 'fitna' so the film is aptly named. He will be personally responsible for the anarchy.

Now in an Islamic state this behaviour is blasphemous, libellous, inflamatory, a great fitna, and will be dealt with using the maximum punishment of death. Such is the deal with many Western countries for treason. So there is nothing new here. However, in the guise of freedom of speech this film may go ahead.

This is what I suggest Muslims should do about it. Well we are already talking out against it and I agree with the few that intellectual criticism is important, but at the same time we as Muslims need to 'stop' them with our hands where we can. Within the framework of that country I think it is worth creating a global fund for the 'litigation' against the production of that film. Hit them in their pockets - it hurts the capitalists there most. We should urge Muslims to contain themselves in all places, because their fury will be seen as another means to defame us.

I am no law man, but I think a law suit against them could be quite productive, especially in the case where each point made in the film can be debated for public viewing and then the true perspective can be demonstrated in a court case. Furthermore, it will show up the film makers ....

Lastly, they can plot and plan .... but Allah (SWT) is the Best of Planners so Muslims have no tolerance for their semantics, but contain yourselves from anger and seek protection from Allah (SWT) that the anger is taken away whilst the determination to do something about the situation is very much kept in tact.

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You know there is an old saying that "Neem Hakim khatra jaan, and neem Mulla Khatra Imaan"
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A hakeem with little health knowledge is dangerous,
and so is the religious scholar without an iota of contextual interpretation of 1400 years old sayings.
*
It is common these days for the self-proclaimed "strong-Iman-ed" 20 year olds to go around shouting fiery slogans, start burning KFC, or explode bombs in the public places. Growing a long beard also comes in handy.

FYI. This 21st century, where there are legal codes, and laws of land that you must follow.

You can't just go around and "stop the evil" with your hands i.e. strongest Iman. Why? because it is the recipe of anarchy in a society where vigilantism rules. Look at Islamic Jannats of Somalia, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistani Western frontier.

It is imperative that people keep this hadith in the books where it belongs so that only legal scholars could interpret it.

FYI. When it comes to the law-enforcement these days, you cannot use your hands, or use your mouth on someone to stop them from doing something. The only exceptions to this rule are the law-enforcement officers with proper authorization from the authorities.

And yes start living in 21st century please!

Again please keep these vigilanti-stic warnings and threats to yourself. No one is "accepting" this film just because it is out there.

The guy made the movie the way he saw this world. If someone doesn't like the movie, then don't see it. In fact don't even talk about it.

And if you still can't stop fidgeting, then go ahead and learn to make a movie yourself.

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And where is he suggesting to go vigilante and start burning kfc's? Mr burqaposh
*In fact don't even talk about it. *
start listening to your own advice.

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^ between 'stop with the hand' and the phrase 'dire warning', at least I read implied violence

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^Nothing wrong with this paragraph, infact its so true.

"The hadith which requires us to stop an evil with our hands, or else then with our mouths or else then at least to dislike that evil in our hearts which is the weakest of Iman speaks volumes against those Muslims who have said 'Personally they are not affected by this idea of the film'. The moment we accept this film then we have no real faith ... A dire warning!"

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Peace burqaposhx

I fail to see your argument ... so I will reiterate ... Stopping with the hand will equate to something like a litigation case against the creators of this film. Stopping with the hand does not mean violence and burning retail establishments ... in the first instance it does not actually stop them nor take to account the people who have made the video.

The rest of your post was superfluous so I snipped it ... many apologies.