black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

[janab-e-ali]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@Das_Reich

none of which can claim imamate atleast in 12er shia islam

We believe the Imamate ended with Imam Mehdi, because he went into occultation, so it's a non-issue for us. Moreover, the last few Imams settled in Samarra and learned Persian, so its not as though they were all from Arabia. In any case, the current religious establishment actually has a good mix of Lebanese and Iraqi Arabs, Iranians, and Pakistanis & Indians.

Moreover, the Shia groups that believe in a present Imam don't generally don't have Arab leaders. The Nizari Ismailis have the Aga Khan, who is a Syed of Persian/Indian/European descent; all of the various Bohri groups recognize various Syeds of Gujarati descent as their Dai al-Mutlaqs...

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@PyariCgudia

Yeah, and that's a total irony. Sunnis hold that anyone can be a political leader, ex. caliphs, who don't have to be necessarily related to the Prophet. You'd think they'd be more democratic and open people, but strict sunnism of today is very close to upholding Arab nationalism and ethnocentric approaches.

Strict Sunni? Of what kind? Who? Islam on the Subcontinent has it's own chauvinists, namely the Urdu speaking Muslims of North Indian stock...ask any Bengali or South Indian Muslim...they'll let you know who they think is the more annoying...

In any case, the most retrogressive Islamists famiilar to us are of Pashtun stock...and are anything but Arabized.

If anything, anti-Arab racism is at an all time high...or is it all of a sudden okay to judge a majority by the actions of a few? By its self, what's wrong with Arab culture anyway...when compared to any other, be it Chinese or American..?

No matter the case, certainly people here are wise enough to distinguish between cultural suppression under an imperial regime (regardless of faith), and a willful cultural assimilation (be it Arab or Western) . Why the double standard?

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

^ and applying the same logic ...the cultural suppression by english speaking anglo-saxons in north america of ALL european immigrants must stand as the biggest example in human history afterall how many polinskis and heidenreichs from america's heartlands can speak polish or german ?

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the ‘master race’

There is a clear increasing push from Arabs to make people more like themselves, because with the advent of westernization in Arab countries, their culture is being tested.

Wha? From who? The handful of militants who found a home in Afghanistan? No.

Tell any common Arab that there are Muslims in Pakistan, they’ll be surprised. They really don’t know about our part of the world, nor care. Why blame the Arabs for something they have little interest in?

On the other hand, why no scorn for westernization in either Arab countries or Pakistan?

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@Das_Reich

^ exactly and applying the same logic ...the cultural suppression by english speaking anglo-saxons in north america of ALL european immigrants must stand as the biggest example in human history afterall how many polinskis and heidenreichs from america's heartlands can speak polish or german ?

Very true! And the trend continues with Mexican migrants. :)

[PyariCgudia]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Westernization hasn't entered with persuasions based on your salvation. People make individual choices to dress in a western style or not, and westernizaion is quite global. I'd call it more globalization than anything else - the trend of cultures mixing everywhere. Now that's healthy. If someone opens up a Spanish restaurant down one road, an Italian leather shop down another, a Chinese soup shop down another - then how is that necessarily westernization? Its not one culture descending on your population mandating you get on the bandwagon lest you die in hell. These are multiple cultural venues opening up in places like Karachi, and other areas, and so its a healthy change of atmosphere. And Westernization in Pakistan hasn't put the damper on traditional attire, wedding ceremonies, etc necessarily. In fact, how much of Pakistani culture is now due to Bollywood-ization?

Arabs might not give a rat's behind about other impoverished muslim nations, which goes even further to show how little we should emulate them, but there are definitely Arab people parading around like scholars who do come into Pakistan and over time have had a major impact in areas like madrassah education and women's rights. They need to be regulated and monitored, and Pakistanis need to stop assuming that these people understand Islam better than they can.

So, quite a difference poic. Its one thing when I go to a chinese resteraunt and enjoy some good Chinese food, or when I go shopping for some stylish American boots. Another when someone comes into my face and tells me I need to cover my hair, my arms, my legs, my feet with socks, my hands with gloves, and my face and my eyes, because this is the "righteous" ways of muslims.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@Das_Reich

^ and applying the same logic ...the cultural suppression by english speaking anglo-saxons in north america of ALL european immigrants must stand as the biggest example in human history afterall how many polinskis and heidenreichs from america's heartlands can speak polish or german ?

Not really.

The acculturation of immigrants to the ways of their newly adopted homelands over successive generations is hardly an example of cultural imperialism. Those people moved to the US of their own free will, and gradually merged into the dominant 'American' cultural context through social contact, intermarriage, etc...I would even argue that in many cases they themselves didn't feel it necessarily or worthwhile to pass on their linguistic heritage over the years. On the same token, how many descendants of Arab, Persian, and Central Asian immigrants to the Subcontinent do you know who are still fluent in their "original" languages?

That's completely different from conquerors forcing their language/culture onto conquered people...and then attempting to give their actions religious legitimacy through hokey "scholarship" that declares them inherently superior to all of God's other creations. A better example would have been the near complete annihilation of the native cultures of Central & South America by the Spanish...or the French forcing their language onto the people of West Africa and the Maghreb (especially Algeria) during the colonial era...both of which were done with the full sanction of the Catholic Church.

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@janab-e-ali

Not really.

?

That's completely different from conquerors forcing their language/culture onto conquered people...and then attempting to give their actions religious legitimacy through hokey "scholarship" that declares them inherently superior to all of God's other creations. A** better example would have been the near complete annihilation of the native cultures of Central & South America by the Spanish...or the French forcing their language onto the people of West Africa and the Maghreb (especially Algeria) during the colonial era...both of which were done with the full sanction of the Catholic Church**.

true thats a better example from ur perspective .....nonetheless u are still assuming that arab armies strangulated the local cultures while we know by most accounts that was not the case ...if anything the locals were in later days encouraged to keep their own religion since that generated more jizya and conversions were actually counterproductive....also in the examples u gave the conquerers were booted out by natives and in case of arabs that did not happen anywhere [except spain]

as arab was the language of the ruling class the subject nations adopted it not only to assimilate but also to "move up" in society similar to the north american example i gave ...so why is this so unacceptable ?

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

...
[quote]
argue that in many I would even cases they themselves didn't feel it necessarily or worthwhile to pass on their linguistic heritage over the years. On the same token, how many descendants of Arab, Persian, and Central Asian immigrants to the Subcontinent do you know who are still fluent in their "original" languages
[/quote]
?
by the same token most of us also can forsake regional languages as its not worthwhile to pass them on ....why shud i teach my kids saraiki or pushto ...why not just english [for worldly affairs] and arabic for religious ?

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@PyariCgudia

So, quite a difference poic. Its one thing when I go to a chinese resteraunt and enjoy some good Chinese food, or when I go shopping for some stylish American boots. Another when someone comes into my face and tells me I need to cover my hair, my arms, my legs, my feet with socks, my hands with gloves, and my face and my eyes, because this is the "righteous" ways of muslims.

assuming someone tells u this if he/she is saying that u coverup ONLY with an arabic gown then yes u can argue thats cultural suppression ....but no rational person will say that their concern is modest /loose dress thats all ...arabic or not

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@PyariCgudia

Westernization hasn't entered with persuasions based on your salvation. People make individual choices to dress in a western style or not, and westernizaion is quite global.

Who on earth is suggesting that dressing like an "Arab" (most arabs don't dress like "Arabs"....whatever that means...there is no official arab dress that I know of...), or otherwise acting Arab is key to salvation? On the contrary, those few that I do know who are "Arabized"...and like I said they happened to have lived in the Middle East - did so out of their own desire to be in such a state.

And no, acting western is not just individual choice. There is a clear compulsion to westernize if one wants to be taken seriously in a modern, urban context.

Westernization is as global as any other cultural influence is...be it Arab or Japanese. But in the Pakistani context, it's not just "another" culture in the mix. No fault of the west, but there is something inherently anti-native among Westernized Pakistanis. Be it "traditional" (not arab...traditional) views of Islam to the various local cultures...if it ain't like the west, it's backwards. They don't want to know it...they don't care for it.

And it's not just a sickness of Pakistanis. Arabs, Iranians, Turks...they all suffer form the same mental disorder. An Iranian knows more about the UK than they do about Pakistan...look at any map of the world, and tell me what's wrong with that picture.

[quote]

I'd call it more globalization than anything else - the trend of cultures mixing everywhere. Now that's healthy.

[/quote]

It becomes unhealthy when you pick on one as being somehow unwelcome, or ominous.

[quote]

Its not one culture descending on your population mandating you get on the bandwagon lest you die in hell.

[/quote]

And who is preeching that? On the contrary...dress like an arab and be fair game for carpet bombing is the attitude I see here more often than not.

In any case, there clearly is a view among many that if one doesn't have a Western outlook, then they are a negative force that needs to be either contained or eliminated (if they're pesky enough to want to preserve their way of thinking, and not be dominated by those who think in radically different ways than they do).

[quote]

And Westernization in Pakistan hasn't put the damper on traditional attire, wedding ceremonies, etc necessarily.

[/quote]

How has "arabization" put a damper on any of those? Arabs have vastly different traditions (linguistic, not ethnic group)...so I don't even know what the counter-influence here is....are you talking about Islamic pontification against increasingly (absurdly) lavish parties? Ridiculous gift exchanges? Unh...morally, I'd say that's a damn good thing...culture be damned in that case...be it arab, western, or local.

[quote]

In fact, how much of Pakistani culture is now due to Bollywood-ization?

[/quote]

How much of Bollywood has been infected by Westernization? Have you seen the way people dress and behave in those movies? I remember the days when at least some of the bollywood movies would be about the common Indian...sari or pajama wearing...now they all seem to be about westernized upper-class morons....and apparently that's "progress"...

[quote]

Arabs might not give a rat's behind about other impoverished muslim nations, which goes even further to show how little we should emulate them,

[/quote]

Most arabs are impoverished themselves. Rich gulf arabs (please do qualify)...don't care about anyone...nobody is suggesting we emulate them.

And spare me the indignation...as if Pakistanis don't have serious racism issues themselves. Now that we can't blame on westernization...that's 100% home grown. We're worse than Arabs in this regard, imho...

[quote]

had a major impact in areas like madrassah education and women's rights. They need to be regulated and monitored, and Pakistanis need to stop assuming that these people understand Islam better than they can.

[/quote]

Sounds more like a conspiracy theory. Their influence in regards to those matters are nominal compared to local, tribal attitudes. I should also point out that those groups got started by tax dollars from you-know-where...

I mean...could it be possible...perhaps...that...maybe...these are... just thinking through the net here...LOCAL attitudes? ....nahhhh...blame the Arabs. Everyone else is blaming them for one thing or the other....we may as well too.

[quote]

Another when someone comes into my face and tells me I need to cover my hair, my arms, my legs, my feet with socks, my hands with gloves, and my face and my eyes, because this is the "righteous" ways of muslims.
[/quote]

How is that "arabic"? Are there no Arabs who agree with your point of view on this?

And let's not pretend like there's no social ostracization against those who do dress that way, by none other than our westernized friends...peans to tolerance aside....

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@janab-e-ali

Not really.

The acculturation of immigrants to the ways of their newly adopted homelands over successive generations is hardly an example of cultural imperialism.

I think the point was, if we think the willful "arabization" - whatever that means - of a few is somehow imperialist, then so is the scenario Das Reich pointed out...i.e. it's really not...

[psyah]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Peace All

What I feared is manifesting before us in this thread ... please do not comment until this thread is locked. I stand by my initial post ... We must not take the afore said about Sh. Ibn Taymiyyah as conclusive because:

1) It is not hadith it is a translation of a commentary about what he 'allegedly' said.

2) We do not know the context or we cannot as yet fully comprehend the full meaning he intended behind it.

3) I personally cannot believe the face value accusation against him that he said this because he is the least likely person of his time to conflict with the message of Qur'an and Sunnah.

So people need to be careful before either defending that position because how can we even ratify that to be a true statement? It could be slander and lies about him?

At the same time we cannot attack that position either for that would assume that we know more than Ibn Taymiyyah which is mighty arrogant of us when he devoted his life to Islam.

This thread is doing nothing but empowering the secular Muslims to argue against the supporters of tradition, but at the same time it gives fuel to the non-Arabs (which is most Muslims) to abandon Ibn Taymiyyah as an authority, and for some non-Arab Muslims to add to a political position.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@Das_Reich

.....nonetheless u are still assuming that arab armies strangulated the local cultures while we know by most accounts that was not the case

Actually, that is the case in much of the Middle East. Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, the Maghreb...none of these areas were culturally or linguistically Arab before the advent of Islam. These people were gradually, and in many cases, forcibly Arabized over centuries of Arab rule.

Go ask a North African Berber about how much their culture thrived under Arab rule. Its been 1400 years, and they still hate the Arabs for what they did to them.

@Das_Reich

..if anything the locals were in later days encouraged to keep their own religion since that generated more jizya and conversions were actually counterproductive....

I am aware of that...in fact, non-Arab Muslims used to be charged jizya as well under the Umayyads. Religion and language/culture aren't the same thing. The French forced their language on the Africans, but not always their religion. The Arabs gradually forced their language on the North Africans...but let them convert to Islam at their own pace.

@Das_Reich

also in the examples u gave the conquerers were booted out by natives and in case of arabs that did not happen anywhere [except spain] What do you mean? The Arabs were booted out of North Africa by Arabized native North Africans. They were booted out of Iran by the Persians. They were booted out of Central Asia by the natives of those lands. And ultimately, the Arabs themselves came to be ruled over by Turks.

[quote="Das_Reich"]

as arab was the language of the ruling class the subject nations adopted it not only to assimilate but also to "move up" in society similar to the north american example i gave ...so why is this so unacceptable ?

Again.

The Arabs were imperialists who conquered **other nations, and **imposed **their language on these **subject nations. The Iranians and the North Africans didn't join up with the Arabs by choice. On the other hand, immigrants to the US, or any other country for that matter, come of their own free will, and adopt American culture by choice. There's a huge difference.

@Das_Reich

by the same token most of us also can forsake regional languages as its not worthwhile to pass them on ....why shud i teach my kids saraiki or pushto ...why not just english [for worldly affairs] and arabic for religious ?

I have no problem with your individual inferiority complex. Feel free to forget all your Siraiki, wear a thawb everywhere, and tie a keffiyeh on your head...its no different to me than kids in India/Pakistan/the Middle East blindly aping American culture.

Just don't try to pretend that Islam demands that you (and everyone else around you) behave like that, or that your actions are somehow more religiously meritorious...

[janab-e-ali]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

@psyah

So people need to be careful before either defending that position because how can we even ratify that to be a true statement? It could be slander and lies about him?

The statements are from his own books...I've seen translated passages from Iqtida us Siratul Mustaqeem that say pretty much exactly what I posted earlier. The fact of the matter is that such attitudes towards non-Arabs were hardly uncommon among the scholars of that era...just off the top of my head, the Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun also has several passages about the inherent inferiority of non-Arabs, especially Africans.

[picoico]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

The cultures remained local...the language changed for the most part in the former Byzantine territories. Not so much in Persia, or other African states.

Actually, that is the case in much of the Middle East. Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, the Maghreb...none of these areas were culturally or linguistically Arab before the advent of Islam.

The areas continue to be culturally diverse...any homogenization is no doubt the result of centuries of interaction during cosmopolitan Imperial rule.

[quote]

Religion and language/culture aren't the same thing. The French forced their language on the Africans, but not always their religion. The Arabs gradually forced their language on the North Africans...but let them convert to Islam at their own pace.

[/quote]

Impossible. Forcing language is only possible through a schooling system...the experience in the colonies among the native peoples show this....children were literally taken from their parents and "educated". There was no such movement, unless we're talking about Janasary or Mamluks...not enough to explain the arabization of a region.

On the other hand, when the ruiling elite adopt a particular language, it tends to become the lingua franca. Much like Urdu. Or English.

Do note that Persian remains the spoken language in modern Iran.

[Iconoclast]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Most "arabs" of today are not arabs themselves. The Palestinians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, were not arabs till they were conquered by Islamic armies. Similarly the Sudanese. Rather actually i am amazed when sudanese call themselves "arabs" and their southern inhabitants as "Africans".

[janab-e-ali]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

The areas continue to be culturally diverse...any homogenization is no doubt the result of centuries of interaction during cosmopolitan Imperial rule.

Go ask the Berbers if they think Arab culture wasn't forced upon them.

Impossible. Forcing language is only possible through a schooling system...the experience in the colonies among the native peoples show this....children were literally taken from their parents and "educated".

Oh please. The French didn't have any sort of policy to systematically kidnap and reeducate children in colonized territories...that kind of a process would be far too costly and involved.

Rather, French was spread in these territories through the migration and settlement of large Francophone populations (as in Algeria), and through the systematic elimination of all official & educational use of native languages. The Arab imperialists did both of these things in their conquered territories. To this day, they continue to do the same to people like the Kurds and the Sudanese Africans.

Do note that Persian remains the spoken language in modern Iran.

Do note that the only reason that's true is because the fiercely nationalistic Persians expelled the Arab invaders fairly quickly. Also do note that modern Persian is nonetheless written in an Arabic based script (as was Turkish until the early 20th century, despite the fact that the Arabic script is poorly suited to the language), and is filled with Arabic words.

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

[quote]

What do you mean? The Arabs were booted out of North Africa by Arabized native North Africans. They were booted out of Iran by the Persians. They were booted out of Central Asia by the natives of those lands. And ultimately, the Arabs themselves came to be ruled over by Turks.

[/quote]

so if they were booted out like that why do these places have such profound arab influence even today ...cuz if what i understand by your statement you are refering to mamluks , seljuks , safavids era who replaced ethnic arab armies ....these dynasties had hundreds of yrs to erase arab influence like visogoths did in spain] so why do these places still follow "arab" religion and culture?
again i dont defend everything that arabs did in the name of islam ...but its fair to say that by and large the first generation of muslims who settled and spread islam in these lands were probably the best examples of practical islam

[quote]

The Arabs were imperialists who conquered **other nations, and **imposed **their language on these **subject nations. The Iranians and the North Africans didn't join up with the Arabs by choice. On the other hand, immigrants to the US, or any other country for that matter, come of their own free will, and adopt American culture by choice. There's a huge difference.

[/quote]

but many persians and north africans did willingly adopt arab customs/culture long after their initial occupation , in abbassid times the persian for example had considrable influence ....infact berbers and persians were largely the army recuriting grounds for arab empires
many scholars also came from these nationalities expert in islam AND arabic . it dosent seem that they had such a resentment to everything arab

[quote]

I have no problem with your individual inferiority complex. Feel free to forget all your Siraiki, wear a thawb everywhere, and tie a keffiyeh on your head...its no different to me than kids in India/Pakistan/the Middle East blindly aping American culture.

Just don't try to pretend that Islam demands that you (and everyone else around you) behave like that, or that your actions are somehow more religiously meritorious

[/quote]

okay assuming I do adopt arab culture totally ....that is according to you an "inferority complex" even though no occupation army forced me to do it, its my choice maybe i am influenced more by beduoin austerity and repelled by the decadence and ignorance of my north indian origin ...yet when people adopt anglo-saxon culture its "out of their own free will" and u see no wrong in that
AND i never said simply adopting arab culture makes u more holy or religious ....refer to my very first post ...u r assuming everyone who is defending arab culture that too only parts of it] is from a tableegi jamat

[Das_Reich]

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

[quote]

Oh please. The French didn't have any sort of policy to systematically kidnap and reeducate children in colonized territories...that kind of a process would be far too costly and involved.

yeah they were there only for 30-50 yrs really and that too just barely in cities ....except in algeria ...french simply had no manpower to do anything meaningful in africa esp. since the prussians whipped their a$$e$ in 1871...they infact relied on the africans even for the homefront
also didnt the turks also kidnap european boys for janasarries even though many ottoman sultans and pashas were of european descent themselves do u blame the arabs for that as well?