black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

brother many contemporaries of ibn taymiyyah did not agree with him either
so he was never a authority for all muslims arab or not

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Because its incredibly difficult to regain an essentially lost culture after centuries of foreign cultural imperialism. The French ruled Africa for less than 100 years, and yet the primary language in many of their former colonial holdings is French. The Vietnamese no longer have a native script; their language has been written using a modified Latin alphabet since the French forced them to switch in the early 20th century. Ottoman Turkish died out decades after Ataturk had the nation switch over to the Latin script in 1928...today only a handful of historians can read it.

Once a language dies, its pretty much gone. The only way to avoid that is by either shunning society completely and adopting a hermetic lifestyle (like many Berbers), or by quickly expelling the foreign conquerors (like the Persians).

Actually, according to whatever evidence we have, Spain was never really Arabized successfully. The Arab settlers largely kept to themselves, and didn't make much effort to spread their religion or their language among the natives (much like the British in India)...though some Arabic words did find their way into the Spanish language. Ultimately this is why it was so easy for the Moors to be expelled from Spain during the Reconquista...and why the territory was not significantly Arabized.

Are you talking about the Umayyads?!?!

On what basis are you claiming that they "willingly" adopted Arabic? The ruling Arab elite pretty clearly forced it upon them...changing the language of administration to Arabic in conquered territories. They learned Arabic because they had to in order to succeed in the hostile environment created by Arab imperialists.

Did you read the part where I said that I consider your inferiority complex no different from that of people in India/Pakistan who blindly ape Western trends? As far as I'm concerned, they're both inferiority complexes.

And as far as "bedouin austerity" is concerned...I have just two things to say. First of all, if that's your only motivation for aping the Arabs, then I assure you we have no dearth of such austere cultures in the Subcontinent for you to imitate...why don't you pretend youre a Gujjar or a Balochi nomad...why even bother looking abroad? And I would also argue that modern Arab society (which is essentially what you're imitating) is anything but austere. Gulf Arabs are some of the most decadent, ayyash people on the face of the earth...you need better role models.

No, I don't. The Ottomans were not Arabs...nor were they as obsessed with imposing their culture on the conquered masses the same way the Arabs were. The Ottomans ruled over the Middle East for centuries...and yet the local language of administration remained Arabic.

The Janissaries were indeed in some cases kidnapped. However, because of the incredible amount of power they wielded, and the fact that they were essentially given almost the best education & training available...many parents willingly handed their children over. In any case, the creation of an army unit is hardly the same thing as the destruction of an entire culture. Perhaps if the Turks had forced the Iraqis and the Palestinians to switch to Turkish (and lord knows they had enough time to do so if they had been so motivated), then you might have had a point.

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

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Are you talking about the Umayyads?!?!
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^ by ummayyads if u mean the sons of abu sufyan and Hakam then may God curse them why shud i include them here? ....but they were not the ones who conquered the lands they merely reaped the benefits esp. under uthman...i am talking about the warriors who fought and subjugated the byzantines and persian empires tribesmen who eventually settled in kufa , basra and the ansar of medina , men like ubadah b sammit [ra], hakim b jibillah [ra] , Malik b harith nakhai [ra] etc who were from the sahaba and tabaeen
and in any case not all ummayyads were bad some were men of great merit and distinction, we cannot hold them responsible for what their fellow tribesmen did

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

similar to any other imperialist so why single out arabs only ? even if we accept ur version completely

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And as far as "bedouin austerity" is concerned...I have just two things to say. First of all, if that's your only motivation for aping the Arabs, then I assure you we have no dearth of such austere cultures in the Subcontinent for you to imitate...why don't you pretend youre a Gujjar or a Balochi nomad
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my choice who i want to imitate ....why does it have to be a local austere culture? in anycase my grandfather's culture was as alien to a gujjar or a balochi as it was to an arab

...
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why even bother looking abroad? And I would also argue that modern Arab society (which is essentially what you're imitating) is anything but austere. Gulf Arabs are some of the most decadent, ayyash people on the face of the earth...you need better role models.

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i am not imitating them at all i.e modern arabs] thats ur wrong assumption, i am very clear about what rolemodels i have ......and this ayyashi started not just in modern time but in a way never was completely eradicated even in Prophet[saw]'s time
.

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The Janissaries were indeed in some cases kidnapped. However, because of the incredible amount of power they wielded, and the fact that they were essentially given almost the best education & training available...many parents willingly handed their children over.
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agreed

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In any case, the creation of an army unit is hardly the same thing as the destruction of an entire culture. Perhaps if the Turks had forced the Iraqis and the Palestinians to switch to Turkish (and lord knows they had enough time to do so if they had been so motivated), then you might have had a point./
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turks couldnt care less what the conquered people spoke as long as they paid the taxes , how is that better than introducing a new language?
so your problem with the arabs is mostly why they "imposed " their language on the other cultures in middleeast? a part of it was also due to the spread of islam as arabs did bring a new religion and the turks did not ....also u seriously dont think that arabs just spread islam by sword in such vast lands?

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Impossible to tell...contemporary political ambitions clouds and distorts historical wrongs...perceived and actual.

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Oh please. The French didn't have any sort of policy to systematically kidnap and reeducate children in colonized territories...that kind of a process would be far too costly and involved.

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Not neccessarily kidnap. Often peasents were convinced this was the only way for their children to succeede...and missionaries were all to willing to come and take these children in.

But often, it wasn't an option...in Quebec, for example...the Spaniards did something similar all through Latin America.

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Rather, French was spread in these territories through the migration and settlement of large Francophone populations (as in Algeria), and through the systematic elimination of all official & educational use of native languages.

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Bingo. This is what I said.

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The Arab imperialists did both of these things in their conquered territories. To this day, they continue to do the same to people like the Kurds and the Sudanese Africans.

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Arab imperialism is long dead.

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Do note that the only reason that's true is because the fiercely nationalistic Persians expelled the Arab invaders fairly quickly.

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How quick? Persians didn't really become a converted people until the 10th century...why was that?

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Also do note that modern Persian is nonetheless written in an Arabic based script (as was Turkish until the early 20th century, despite the fact that the Arabic script is poorly suited to the language), and is filled with Arabic words.[/quote]

So is Urdu...Turkish was written in Arabic script as well...in spite of the fact that the Turks ruled over the Arabs for a large period of time.

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Do you see me praising other imperialists? All this time I've been talking about how the French went around destroying native cultures left and right. The only reason I focus on the Arabs is because their form cultural imperialism directly impacts my life, and the topic of this thread is the Arabization of Islam.

The Prophet and his companions didn't walk around in keffiyehs speaking Modern Standard Arabic. People have a tendency to wrongly believe that aping modern Gulf Arab language/customs is somehow copying the ways of the Prophet.

Exactly. The Turks ruled over their conquered people without feeling the need to 'Turkify' them or destroy their existing culture. It's a much more benign form of imperialism than that practiced by the Arabs, the Spaniards, the French, etc...

When did I ever say Islam was always spread by the sword??? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. And as far as bringing a new religion is concerned, as I have already pointed out, the spread of religion is somewhat independent of the spread of language/culture. Egypt was probably Arabized before it became a largely Muslim state...much of North Africa started to speak French, but never really converted to Catholicism during the colonial period, etc.

Furthermore, the Turks did introduce Islam to Eastern Europe. Remember...Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania became Muslim under Ottoman rule. And yet, the Turkish language wasn't forced on any of these people...once again, the Turks weren't as malignant an influence as the Arabs were.

My problem with Arabs is twofold. First, they practiced a malignant form of imperialism, whereby they felt the need to destroy the native cultures of their conquered peoples and force them to Arabize...to the point where native Egyptian or Palestinian/Phonecian culture hasn't even survived in the remotest, most backward villages...even illiterate farmers speak to their children in Arabic. Second, they have a tendency to legitimize their actions by claiming that their culture is somehow more Islamic than any other, as if somehow their cultural practices are part of Islam. That form of cultural imperialism continues on today.

See above.

Arab cultural imperialism and monopolization of Islam lives on to this day.

Actually, the Persians didn't fully convert till around the 11th century.

Arab rule, however, lasted no more than 200 years. By the mid 9th century, a number of largely independent Persian/Central Asian states had sprung up in defiance of central Abbasid rule. Less than a century later, it was the Iranian Buyids were controlling the Abbasid throne itself.

I already said Turkish was written in Arabic script. However, the Arabs themselves had precious little to do with the development of both Ottoman Turkish and Urdu. Whatever Arabic influence there is in these languages came via Persian...likely because of the fact that Persian essentially came to be the lingua franca of the Muslim world (rather, the Muslim world east of Baghdad) from the 10/11th century to the dawn of the colonial era...just as French was the formal language of royal courts from Paris to Moscow, Persian was adopted as the 'darbari zabaan' from Anatolia to Bengal.

The Arabic influence on Persian, however, is a direct consequence of the Arab colonization of Iran.

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

Peace janab-e-ali

Are you still going on about this mute point? You know I have not read any thing past the first few posts.

Give it up man ... lets hug and make up.

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

I dont do that so dont assume everyone is the same ...infact i made it clear earlier in the discussion

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Exactly. The Turks ruled over their conquered people without feeling the need to 'Turkify' them or destroy their existing culture. It's a much more benign form of imperialism than that practiced by the Arabs, the Spaniards, the French, etc...
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how is it more benign? from the standpoint of christian europeans they hated the turks as much as the arabs ....furthermore turkish policies were no better than that of any imperial power AND MUCH more worse than the policies followed by and large] during early muslim arab conquests [e.g suppression of greek revolt of 1820s]
if the eastern european preserved their culture it was because they were extremely proud and nationalistic not because turks did not attempt to subjugate them [even romans found it hard to totally make them latin , spartacus was also some say a thracian slave]....the people of middleeast who previously had assimilated well with byzantine and persian influences were more open to accepting arab influence religiously and culturally

.

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Furthermore, the Turks did introduce Islam to Eastern Europe. Remember...Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania became Muslim under Ottoman rule. And yet, the Turkish language wasn't forced on any of these people...once again, the Turks weren't as malignant an influence as the Arabs were.

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turks introduced their kingship to balkans with minor importance to religious issues thats why independence of kosovo was celebrated publicly with beer!
turks had no serious plans to educate the population with islamic teachings

granted the fact that most arab rulers had similar intentions but following in their wake came the religious men who won the hearts of the people and converted them to islam ....this was the practice of good rulers like umar b khattab[ra] who sent knowledgable companions to various provinences to teach them islam

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My problem with Arabs is twofold. First, they practiced a malignant form of imperialism, whereby they felt the need to destroy the native cultures of their conquered peoples and force them to Arabize...to the point where native Egyptian or Palestinian/Phonecian culture hasn't even survived in the remotest, most backward villages...even illiterate farmers speak to their children in Arabic.
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exactly 100s of years later ...that shud tell u something ....people dont care about the lost cultures anymore ...they are very happy with their present state , phonecian & other cultures are of academic importance only now ..this is a phenomena not unique to arab conquered regions and is not neccesarily a product of extreme suppression ...how many blacks in america today bemoan their loss of african culture ? even though they r free to adapt whatever culture they please in america

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Second, they have a tendency to legitimize their actions by claiming that their culture is somehow more Islamic than any other, as if somehow their cultural practices are part of Islam. That form of cultural imperialism continues on today.
do we follow harrapan culture today?

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thats wrong i agree ....but if somebody adopts arab culture that shud not be held against him afterall sticking to our own culture blindly is also nationalistic...people will adopt what they like
afterall mughals adopted persian culture too .....what is that not cultural supprresion of other indigneous cultures?

again if ALL arabs were such malignant conquerers how did islam manage to stay in such a vast region and in so many different cultures

Re: black salafi imam: arabs are the 'master race'

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Arab rule, however, lasted no more than 200 years. By the mid 9th century, a number of largely independent Persian/Central Asian states had sprung up in defiance of central Abbasid rule.

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...that is a very long time...and it certainly isn't "quick" by any standard.

In any case...the point being, there was a willfull adoption of Islam, which originated in Arab lands, after the Arabs left. And no, I don't buy the Persinaised Shiaism argument. And yes, I do suggest this pokes major holes in the suggestion that the primary influence Arabs had over people with respect to their cultural exports was coercive.

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I already said Turkish was written in Arabic script. However, the Arabs themselves had precious little to do...

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YES...exactly.

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Whatever Arabic influence there is in these languages came via Persian...likely because of the fact that Persian essentially came to be the lingua franca of the Muslim world (rather, the Muslim world east of Baghdad)

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Okay...so can we put this whole Desis being iimposed on by Arabs bit to rest now? Now what? Let's start railing against the Persians? Those damn Iranis...