Black Magic

Yes yes I have read all your messages but you are contradicting your self. Aamils dont have the cure. Only the Quran, Sunnah and YOU have the cure. Going to aamil and being cure simply means it was ur dillusioned mind that manifested the thought of black magic. Going to ammils is NOT the solution. Purefy your self and clean up your act, THAT is the path to the cure. And THAT is where I disagree with you.

When Allah is clearly told us what verses to read when people have bad intentions towards us, why does anyone need to go to any aamil. It will only mean that we do not believe in Allah's power over that aamil's.

EXACTLY!!!

Thats what I have been trying to tell you guyz.

No, you said that we were weak in iman. You made a blanket generalization because some of us didn't agree with YOUR outlook.

And now you've done it again, stating that we bend the Quran. I never spoke of the Quran, except to say that it is auto-authoritative. In that regard, it cannot prove or disprove anything. So your purpose in this thread is void in any scientific sense.

I have stated that black magic is a real practice, however the evidence of it existing in a paranormal sense carries no scientific weight in response to your (and other's), statement that it is factual. When you make a statement of fact, the burden of proof is on you. You cannot prove anything with one book. You need to follow the scientific method.

Your hypothesis is that it is real.
So test it.
Retest it.
Offer it up for critique.
Allow others to follow your method and test it.
And then you'll know your answer.
You haven't done that, so all you're doing is throwing out your bias.

While it might make you feel good, I loathe anyone (as does the academic community), who attempts to enter such a discussion under such a bias. If you're not prepared (which are you not), for a real debate, then you really shouldn't enter it.

Remember, leave your ego at the door, or don't come in.

Cheers.

MS I have entered it head-on and when u say I can't say everything based on a book (The Quran) and need to support my answer using scientific proof that actually says it all =)

I have given several links, and none of them are good enuff?

Ok lemme post a real story for you. My neighbors were going for Umrah and they left their 13 yr old son behind cuz of school. He used to come over and play the PS with me and the day his family came back their maid left without a trace. That kid (very bright) wud always keep the lights-off, and spoke to "people" and smile at them. We have a mosque near our house and every time the azaan was called out he wud scream and ask the maulvi to shut-up (this kid used to pray) he used the filthy langauge with his mother and wud run to the garage at 3am and say sumone's calling him. His family sent him to a mental inst for 7 months and no change.. they brought an aalim from syria and the aalim's first words were where is u're Bengali maid? (how did the aalim know they had a maid and she was bengali?)

The kid cudn't be held-down by 10 labourers when the azaan was in progress, the aalim asked the family to look for a small bag containing black powder (which was found under his mattress) the aalim asked them to burn it..when the family tried to burn it Shayed ran and snatched it away and threw it. The aalim began his "treatment" Surah Jinn and many others and after 3 of these recitations the aalim told them the name of the person that did it (how did the aalim know?)

So MS u want proof from the Quran? When it's mentioned in the Quran and u keep bringing up scientific proof that itself shows enuff about u're Imaan.. u're questioning several hadith and the Quran itself when u say it.

Anyway once again, I've said enuff been to many scholar's and have their view as well..if u still want proof from the Quran lol I don't have much to say! I'm not convincing people that they have magic done on them nor am I encouraging them to blv every mishap is due to magic.. they ONLY point i'm making is that it exists! I'm not repeating myself over n over again..everyone blv whatever u want to.

Gina,

It says that in an intellectual discussion, you have to present evidence beyond that of an auto-authoritative book. I invite you to try this tactic of yours in any university or academic setting, and see how far you get. I am able to separate my personal bias from my academic research. You have shown repeatedly that you are not able to.

Number one, this is proof of a confirmation bias. You assume that an exorcism worked because you made the correlation between your belief of it's efficiency, and the child's response. However, when you are raised in a culture or belief system that reinforce a belief in exorcism and possession, you are more likely to psychologically concede to being "cured," when an action (the exorcism itself), reinforces it. There is LOADS of research on this. And there are many, many explanations available. You just choose not to exhaust them (and for psychosis, 7 months is hardly enough).

No. This has nothing to do with my iman or lack thereof. This has to do with separating personal bias from fact. As a researcher and academic, it is imperative that one does so. You are unable to do so, and therein is your limitation. I'm not questioning hadith, I'm questioning you.

Scholars functioning within a theological system (non-secular), are always going to be biased. To test the validity of anything you must first remove yourself from that bias and test it.

The standards of the global academic community stand. If something is true, it can be tested and proved to be true. It has not yet been proved to be true, and therefore is not.

I would like to add that you have become so defensive that you have turned aggressive and insulting. It speaks volumes about your ability to engage in such a debate. Ad hominems are utilized when one no longer can refute another. I don't want to be on poor terms with you, but you just let the negativity flow.

I am neither defensive nor insulting MS u posted u're views I posted mine... and everyone has the right to do so. U're research is scientific mine is thru several scholars and real life experiences. Do u disagree that the Prophet was affected by it? Do u disagree that the 2 Surahs were sent after the Prophet suffered? Do u disagree that magic is used times over in the Quran and Allah himself has given a verse to His people to seek protection from "the blower on knots and from the envious one when he envies" if there was no such thing as magic..wud Allah swt send down these Surah's?

Anyway, this discussion has become rathar monotonous. For those that want to blv it doesn't exist please do. Those that blv it does, please do.

Re: Black Magic

MS, you believe in Angels, prove that they exist.

MS, Mary was a virgin yet she conceived and gave birth, the Prophets lived 700 years... there was a Prophet that cud understand what animals said... Lail-a-tul-qadr is better than a thousand months.. all of these things are also mentioned in the Quran but science has yet to prove them. So does that mean u don't blv in them either?

Sorry if it comes across as defensive to u but those that question the Quran or need "proof" and scientific research to agree to the sayings if Allah swt himself do happen to be weak in Imaan. For others we blindly agree with it.

Re: Black Magic

I don't want to join the debate, however I do know where both sides are coming from. Can we please leave this and move on.....its the month of ramadhan and we don't want to be debating over black magic. Its the last ashura and we should all strive to do more ibadat in order to reap rewards and protection from shaitan.

^ Zarra it's a healthy debate...

Re: Black Magic

LOL, I never said its unhealthy! But, its better to let it be in my view........as its one of those never ending issues.

You're missing the point. What I believe is of no relevance. I cannot state these things as facts, as they have not been proven. That is the entire premise behind what I've been trying to tell you. When you state something as a fact you MUST prove it. My beliefs are of no consequence in this discussion, because WE have to remove ourselves from our personal bias.

This has nothing to do with your beliefs or mine. It has to do with the facts. And there is no evidence to back this up.
Hence, it is not a fact.

When you purport that something is true without proving it beyond a shadow of a doubt (beyond confirmation bias--which is very evident in this thread), then you risk victimizing people. Witch hunts are thought of as ill intentioned and WRONG for a reason.

I don't have to prove either way, as I've never stated that it is a fact that they exist.

Geez people, get with the freakin' program. Haven't you ever attended university? It seems so many of you have skipped over the basics of the scientific method and the manners of a debate.

Re: Black Magic

you talk about intellect and the need for proof to believe
this debate could go on forever, however i will make it very short.

you deny Allah's words and the existence of black magic because you dont see it.
yes perhaps its all your mind, an illusion or perhaps its something else

but do you also deny the existence of Allah because you dont see Him or Hear him.
perhaps its all your mind, right? after all, you dont take His book literally either.
why would you believe in Him, after all His existence is supposed to be blind faith.

sigh.

Gina, just leave it. there is no point in arguing with someone who is determined to twist things to suit their needs.

you dont have to believe in black magic.
or even heaven or hell or whatever else it is that you dont want to.
dont try to create your own interpretations of the quran and force them down on others when it is very clear how very little knowledge you have

I agree with Gina on this one.

MS from your other posts it seems that you're not very religious which is fine and I have nothing against that. But you can't be doubting others beliefs. We all have the right the believe in what we want so there's no point in you asking for proof.

and it would be wise for u to leave the argument..you wouldnt want all the believers to come at you all at once (which we have a lot here on GS i think).

you asked if someone went to uni here.....I'm sure many of us do/did. What you learned in uni can be applied to many other areas but you trying to apply that in an islamic debate won't do you any good simply because it's a very broad topic and one needs some serious islamic knowledge which you dont seem to have. Please dont take offense but I just noticed you were burying urself in the argument so I had to say this.

There are no words for how disheartened I am by people in this thread. I have SEPARATED my beliefs from this. If you can't recognize what INTEGRITY is in connection to these types of debates, then you don't belong in here.

I have repeated myself again and again. My beliefs are of no consequence. YOUR beliefs are of no consequence.

** If you want to call something a fact, you MUST prove it. **

That's ALL I've been asking in this thread.
And yet I'm insulted.

You've made several assumptions about me which are wrong. But my personal opinions and beliefs here are not relevant.

** I have been insulted by those who do not have the mental capacity to engage in a decent debate, and instead throw out ad hominem attacks and present their personal biases as facts. ** Nor have I doubted anyone's beliefs. I stated that belief is separate from fact. If people want to yell at me, they can go right on ahead. I can see how dim some people are from this thread, as they can't understand the basic concept of dismissing personal bias from an intelligent discussion.

This is exactly what separates common folk from academics.

And btw, I do have a broad Islamic knowledge. I majored in Religious Studies and Sociology, and I continue to work and study in the field.

"If you want to call something a fact...you must prove it"

How would you prove GOD. Now you'll say he's just a belief and might not exist.

You do seem intellectual to me honestly. But MS why do you think religions are known as being spiritual because it's not all based on facts it's based on our beliefs!!! and when the something is based on a belief how can u argue it in terms of being a fact or not? :)