Re: Bida'a...
thas right!! EVERY innovation is Misguidance and we are talkin abt Innovations in religion. One cannot use cars, phones, jeans as an example of innovations.
This has been discussed before in which the arguements of a good bidah were refuted!
Bro Ahamd g no offence but it seems u r stuck in yr ways. he really does not know what he is on abt. All he does is copy and paste other articles which makes me question what kinda teacher he really is.
Re: Bida’a…
Abdullaah ibn Umar (RA) states, “every innovation is misguidance, even if the people regard it as GOOD.” (ad-Daarimee)
Mu’aadh bin Jabal (RA) used to say, whenever he sat in a circle of knowledge, “and I warn you of what is innovated, for all that is innovated is misguidance” [ash-Sharee’ah pg.55, also Abu Dawood with similar wording]
Abdullaah ibn Mas’ud (RA) said, “follow the sunnah of Muhammad and do not innovate, for what you have been commanded is enough for you.” [ad-Daarimee]
Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman said, “every act of worship that the Companions did not do, do not do it” [Abu Dawood]
Is this not enough? That the Companions tell us to follow the way of Muhammad (SAW) and not to make up new ways of worship?
“whomsoever Allaah guides to the truth, none can misguide him, and whomsoever Allaah misguides, none can guide”! [Muslim]
also lets put some icing to the cake with some sayongs from our respected Imaams-
Imaam Abu Haneefah said, “stick to the narrations and the way of the salaf, and beware of the newly invented matters for all of it is innovation” [Sawnul Muntaq of as-Suyutee pg.32]
Imaam Maalik said, “he who innovates an innovation in Islaam regarding it as something good, has claimed that Muhammad (SAW) has betrayed his trust to deliver the message as Allaah says, ‘this day have I perfected for you your religion’. And whatsoever was not part of the religion then, is not part of the religion today.” [al-I’tisaam]
He also said, “how evil are the People of Innovation, we do not give them salaam” [al-Ibaanah of ibn Battah (d.387) no.441]
Imaam Ahmad said, “the fundamental principles of the sunnah with us are:.avoiding innovations and every innovation is misguidance” [Usul as-Sunnah of Imaam Ahmad pg.1]
As for the narrations from Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee in which he categorises bid’ah into two, then it is weak as all of it’s chains of narrations depend upon unknown narrators. [al-Bid’ah of Shaykh Saleem al-Hilaalee, al-Masaabeeh fee Salaatit Taraaweeh of as-Suyutee with Alee Hasans footnotes]. Not only this but in his risalah he rejects the concept of istihsaan because ‘the person doing so has legislated in the sharee’ah’ i.e. without permission from Allaah.
Imaam Bukhaaree said, “I have met more than a thousand scholars.(then he mentioned the names of the more prominent in each of the lands that he travelled in) and I found that they all agreed on the following points: they all used to prohibit bid’ah - that which the Prophet and his Companions were not upon, because of the saying of Allaah, ‘and hold fast to the rope of Allaah and do not separate’” [Imaam Bukhaaree’s article on belief as quoted in Sharh Usul I’tiqaad 1/170. From amongst the scholars he met were: Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Ubaid al-Qaasim, ibn Ma’een, ibn Aasim, ibn Abee Shaybah.]
for the previous dicussions with Ahmad G please refer to this
thread…http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=196494&page=3
Re: Bida’a…
Brother faisal, I guess you came to this thread very late and are not aware of core topic of discussion. so you have just copy pasted the official stance
all-non-arab-do-‘bidah’
all-arab-do-no-bidah
because-arabs-are-holy
Please read the whole thread and respond in an objective manner and explain the innovation(bidah) in islam by caliphs and later people like Hajjaj . Why they are not considered bidah by Arabs and yourself. thanks 
Re: Bida'a...
brother i actually replied with a general post about what Ahmad G was stating as he is in the past quoted weak hadiths and accused many shaykhs of things they are free of AND quoted hadiths out of context.
[QUOTE]
all-non-arab-do-'bidah'
all-arab-do-no-bidah
because-arabs-are-holy
[/QUOTE]
That is not true becos even the arabs themselves(not all) do bidah!
Holy is the one who adheres to the Qur'aan and Sunnaah alone!
i have read the contens and it ios the same as b4 which i have heard many times with people trying to justify a "good bidah".
Before giving points on what is good and what is bad we have to start at the foundations which Is Bidah, can it be good?
NO WAY!
Re: Bida’a…
^Yes Code_Red.. you’re following a wrong line of argument.
You’re saying since xyz did this and this, and it is not bidah, then there is such a thing as good bidah (or it is justifiable). I think, first, you should look at the proof which talks about whether there is such a thing as good bidah or not, then look at those mentioned incidents.
For e.g., just to reply to your claims:
I dont think Umar (ra) added anything to the Fajr azaan. Rather this was done in the time of the Prophet. If you could quote where you got this information from, I’ll look more into it and let you know
Regarding adding aaraaf to the Quran, it is an islamic principle that anything which is required for the doing of a wajib activity, is wajib itself. Since reading/understanding the Quran is wajib for muslims, then things which facilitate this are not bidah.. rather they’re facilitating something wajib.
Regarding a couple of point ravage mentioned, about 3 divorces, it is something which is at the decision of the ruler/imam of muslims. The Imam of the muslims has options at his hand.. for e.g. he may choose to punish different crimes differently depending on how he sees the current situation.. in times of rebellion, a harsher punishment might be chosen etc.
About taraweeh, it was never a biddah- the Prophet prayed it himself, and lead the congregation as we know it. The scholars have explained time and again that the word innovation can be used in the sense of revival. So in essense, ‘a good biddah’.. means a revival of the sunnah of the Prophet. (I remember a post by gupguppy which dealt quite comprehensively with this issue.. please search for it).
Again, I’d suggest that you actually read what is being said.. rather than suggesting that all ‘arab-things’ are ok. Who the hell cares if an arab does something wrong or a non-arab? Get rid of that inferiority complex..
Lastly, faisal has quoted a ton of stuff from the the sahaba.. the tabieen, and the taba tabieen.. (post # 1 on this page.. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3902313&postcount=1) Let me know how you explain that.
Re: Bida'a...
and even if he did start something for arguements sake....The Rasool(saw) said follow my sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly Guided Kuhalafah after me....'Umar was one of them. Dnt u dare accuse Him of doin innovations.
Re: Bida’a…
Ammar you can do better by being less childish and more reasonable
I am not advocating good bidah bad bidah crap, I am just questioning the double standard and blind following of tweaking done by arabs without any questioning and issueing fatwas on non-arabs for doing the same.
First make it clear. I am not advocating so called good bidah I just asking why we are so afraid to admit holy arabs did bidah and we follow them as it is the word of God
Ammar
I have already explained my POV in detail, and i dont like repeating myself.
Introduction of Aaraab made it almost impossible for Non-arab muslims to understand quran in arabic.(evident from our current state of affairs ) since it created hindrance for muslims to understand quran **(a wajib according to you )**so it is a worst bidah. 
No Sir, I am afraid you are terribly wrong here. The topic of divorce is discussed extensively in quran so much so that a whole chapter (sura Talaq) and large portion of another sura (Nisa) is dedicated to this topic. Allah has instructed in minutest details as how to do it. There is a whole procedure. It is agreed upon that Caliph must stick the law of quran and follow the guidence in it. Unless you hold Umer at higher status than the quran it self, The law made by Hazrat Umar (ra) was in clear voilation of Quran
It was the Imam Bukhari who has has accused Hazrat Umar (ra) of doing the first Balasphemy in Islam. ( Do i need to quote his utterance at the death bed of holy prophet pbuh ? ) I am not accusing him, the history books do the job perfectly fine
**Note : I am not trying to disrespect Hazrat Umar (ra) in anyway whatsoever. For me he is a role model Ideal ruler and administrator. He served Islam a great deal. But i do not consder him or any other sahabi infalible, thus prone to error. We can rightly question their judgement and if they were wrong according to quran and sunnah then we must not follow them **
Re: Bida'a...
[QUOTE]
It was the Imam Bukhari who has has accused Hazrat Umar (ra) of doing the first Balasphemy in Islam. ( Do i need to quote his utterance at the death bed of holy prophet pbuh ? ) I am not accusing him, the history books do the job perfectly fine :)
*Note : I am not trying to disrespect Hazrat Umar (ra) in anyway whatsoever. For me he is a role model Ideal ruler and administrator. He served Islam a great deal. But i do not consder him or any other sahabi infalible, thus prone to error. We can rightly question their judgement and if they were wrong according to quran and sunnah then we must not follow them *
[/QUOTE]
hmm....interesting... could you please show that imaam bukhaari "accused" 'Umar of Innovations, as i believe there is a context behind it.
i agree with you that Some Arabs have double standards when it comes to bidah and even Tawheed and Shirk. i.e they talk abt bidah and attack the innovaters yet they allow the saudi independence(which i was told by a shaykh), also they bang on abt shirk this and shirk that yet they allow the the govt to do shirk by ruling by man made law which is going against Allaah's right of legislation.
but this does not mean there are wrong in everythin bcos they do have some good work on some fundamental beliefs.
Re: Bida'a...
.
No. I was refering to the incident when Prophet (pbuh) was was very ill and asked compainions to bring paper and pen so that he could give them instructions (sort of a will ) but Hazrat Umar (ra) rudely disobeyed by saying that prophet is not in his senses(God forbid) and quran is enough for us.
This incident is quoted in bukhari and other books of hadess.
But ^ that is off-topic what i am saying is that Hazrat Umar and noble companion were great men and very devoted muslims, but they had human weaknesses. So we can not blindly follow them. The above incident shows that Hazrat Umar (ra) was not a polite person and had short temper, but he was intelligent and very humble.
See his sayings and read his biography. He acknowledged many a times that he is not perfect, and if he does something wrong, rectify him. and if he does injustice, then point it out. And people of his time used to do this all the time. It was his greatness that he always took the criticism positively.
[quote]
After taking charge of his office, 'Umar spoke to the Muslims of Medina:
"...O people, you have some rights on me which you can always claim. One of your rights is that if anyone of you comes to me with a claim, he should leave satisfied. Another of your rights is that you can demand that I take nothing unjustly from the revenues of the State. You can also demand that... I fortify your frontiers and do not put you into danger. It is also your right that if you go to battle I should look after your families as a father would while you are away. "O people, remain conscious of God, forgive me my faults and help me in my task. Assist me in enforcing what is good and forbidding what is evil. Advise me regarding the obligations that have been imposed upon me by God..."
[/quote]
If he made an error in judgement then he already asked forgiveness, and appealed for recitification. It is fault of people of later time who blindly followed him disregarding quran and sunah and went astray (in few aspects like matter of talaq)
Re: Bida'a...
yeh bro i know what u mean but Sometimes he was right. We do not blid follow any1 but the Rasool(saw) as only he knows the right path.
'Umar did have a short temper but rmbr even sometimes he was right when he would question the Rasool(saw)
i would like to see this innovatiuon this u r talkin abt as it will take along time for me to search for it. why dnt u show me n we can take it frm there.
Re: Bida'a...
akhee please quote references when u quote something abt Islaam.
Re: Bida’a…
My apologies :flower1:
here is the reference
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html
*Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114: *
Now I have talked about quite a few innovations in Islam in this thread. I don’t know which one are you asking about :konfused:
In case you are refering to the topic of talaq, then please do the following :
As probably you have already read holy quran but please read the verses and chapters regarding the topic of ‘Talaq’ (divorce). Quran gives us very clear instructions on various relationship topics and divorce is no exception.
Please read and understand the verses of Sura Baqra from 220 to 250 (roughly) and also read the sura Talaq and other verses related to the topic.
Please tell me if you have fair understanding of the topic (divorce) which is discussed in quran in detail, then I shall proceed further :flower2:
Re: Bida’a…
It is in Imam Malik’s Muwatta:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/003.mmt.html#003.3.1.8
Again, how is it ijtihad if it is something you agree with, and bid’ah if its not? Every “bid’aa” can probably be traced to some initiation to someone regarded by that set of people as an Imam or a source of religious fatawa. Mourning for example has that basis. If you are going to be regarding a new act in Islam as Bidaa for certain people and Ijtihad for others, I dont see a way forward.
As codey mentioned, his ruling went directly against established practices of the Prophet and the 1st Caliph, and against the Quranic prescription of divorce, which is pretty explicit.
You cannot offer carte blanche to a person over Islam just because he happens to be the ruler/Imam of the Muslims. And if you do, then you shouldnt have a problem with the rest of the "bid’aa"s because i can assure you, they can be traced to some “Imam” or another, and the only difference between us and you would be a different set of Imams, and nothing really in principle.
No I’ve talked about it in some length, and you do not address any of the points I raise. How is it justified if the Prophet changed his practice of taraweeh to avoid praying in congregation? Why was it “revived” if it was abandoned because the Prophet himself desired the cessation of praying it in congregation?
I absolutely do not buy the argument that it was okay since the Prophet had died and it wouldnt become mandatory because you’re extrapolating way beyond the words of the Prophet and introducing your own logic in there.
Re: Bida'a...
in addition in saying that the Prophet "lead" the prayers and that its "sunnah" to pray in congregation, you're being more than a little misleading. Refer back to the quoted sahih tradition on the abandonment of tarawih in congregation. The prophet prayed it a certain way, people gathered behind him of their own accord and started praying behind him. When he changed the way he prayed (in response to that) they asked did you not see us, supporting the fact that it was something they did themselves without any encouragement from the Prophet. He had seen them and upon their persistence in this act he changed the way he prayed.
i fail to understand how something the Prophet never explicitly encouraged (thus people asking if he hadnt seen them) and infact implicitly discouraged (by changing the way he prayed in order to avoid congregational taraweeh) and never suggested it be started after he dies, can then be spun as "sunnah"
Re: Bida'a...
[quote]
Revange: Mourning for example has that basis. If you are going to be regarding a new act in Islam as Bidaa for certain people and Ijtihad for others, I dont see a way forward.
[/quote]
Agree!
everything is traceable but some of us just don't want to, as they are into an habit of labeling anything they don't practice (or against their sect.) as biddah and haram.
If everything is there in Quran and hadees than whats the use of Sunnah, Ijtehad and Ijmah Qayyas.
Re: Bida'a...
^^^ I know this much that whatever prophet mohammed did not do and any one does is Bidaa. He never sat on car, he never used airconditions, he never used raisor , he never used tooth brush etc etc. It is all bidaat. But if some one does not agree with these ideas. Then he or she is free to do what ever they want to do even if prophet mohammed (pbuh) used to not do. For example he used to keep his zulfeen, if you do not want do not keep. All men do the same. etc etc
please note: he used to be doing thing according to arabic culture. Arabic culture is not islam. Mind it. All the things whatever have been asked to do in Quran is islam. That's all.
God forgive me if I think wrongly .This is how I analyse. I think I have been bestowed by God. I am blessed. And I can use my personal brain ; and i believe I am answerable to my deeds. I am confident of my God's blessing to all mankind. Except ---some to whom God has made MAGNOON.
I am very peaceful. As I believe what ever I would do , I am responsible. No other moullana or person. So decide yourself what is bidaat.
Re: Bida'a...
zamaroudzenith, you obviously have neglected to realize that when many of us talk about no room for bidah in Islam, many of us are speaking about innovating in the matters of deen and not medical, scientific and other such innovations.
Also, what is this Arab culture that you're referring to and what is it that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) apparently followed which you make it seem like was solely part of Arab culture and not Islam?
PS. please keep it short, concise and to the point.
Re: Bida'a...
Sadiyah,
That what I have written, God forgive me if i think and analyse wrongly. But we all know all the people of those days used to dress up the same way, all the ladies used to dress up the same way. Were they all not arabs. They were all arabs, and they used to follow the arabic cultural values. Is not it true?
Many of the WAQEYATS that happen now and were never happen then. Then how would we decide about them to do or nt to do? For example how to handle the Denmark? etc etc. We have to think and analyse according to todays circumstances. No matter if prophet mohammad(pbuh) had used those methods or not. It is not going to be bidaat. We muslims have to act , represent according to todays world's frame work, today's culture. This is how I understand. That even if muslim choose a way which was never ever committed by prophet mohammed(pbuh) it is not going to be bidaat. I think I perhaps are able to explain my point of view. Sadehya, not all people think the same way. Is it not so? Even if I try to think in the same way, It is difficult for me. Perhaps what I have noticed; mashallah your point of view if always totally different from others at many areas. I do not think it is bad to think independently. And also every one is not perfect. I never claim I am right. I am on the forum to learn from many people like you and others.
Re: Bida'a...
zamaroudzenith, given that you've touched on the subject of clothing, many prefer to wear jilbaab/abaya and thobes out of ease and comfort and because it covers one well. However, one cannot conclude that those observing such a dresscode are merely copying the Arabs or anything of that sort.
However, if one were to claim that no other dress is appropriate irregardless of the fact that it meets all the requirements for the dresscode by Islam, then I'd be worried. Therefore, I don't think it'd be wise to make sweeping statements about how many follow Arab or the Arab culture when clearly such is not the case.
Also, please remember to keep in mind that bidah in Islamic matters is forbidden and not when it comes to math, science, medicine, and the like. There's a huge difference there. You're merely comparing apples to oranges by comparing razors, toothbrush to other wordly innovations to innovations in deen. Bear in mind that there is a huge difference between the two.
Re: Bida'a...
.
Also, please remember to keep in mind that bidah in Islamic matters is forbidden and not when it comes to math, science, medicine, and the like. There's a huge difference there. You're merely comparing apples to oranges by comparing razors, toothbrush to other wordly innovations to innovations in deen. Bear in mind that there is a huge difference between the two.
I see what you are saying but how can we be sure that the kind of Islam that we practice today is the same as that in the time of the Prophet(saw)?
Different sects will give you different traditions and interpretations.
What constitutes a Bi'dah for one sect is considered routine for the other