Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Maula_Jatt

ROFL! No no. You can wait for her to explain what she may have meant by sugarcoating.

Im going to take it by what sugarcoating ACTUALLY means relative to context.

Ok i will not assume. I’ll let her explain. just like you interpreted that way i interpreted this way.

[Southie]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

^ And that’s the point isn’t it. The interpretations of one word varies so much among folks with different perspectives. Honest differences exist. If one person questions OP abt a certain word , it is perfectly fine for others to state how they perceived the same word or sentence or whatever.

Now take this difference over one word and multiply it by some humongous number. And you start to get a feel for how religious laws are subject to as many interpretations as there are people.

[diwana]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Maula_Jatt

**
LOL Bella.**

Since antiquity, horrible and mindless acts of violence have been committed in the name of deities.

In this case, a few people have committed a grotesque act, you come on here to challenge “guys who support every sharia rule” to see if they what they have to say in mere attempts to discredit them or their religion.

I would like to outline the inconsistency in your own arguments and to advise that if you are going to have a go at religion this way, you need to be sound, clear and much more smarter than you are showcasing yourself to be.

Below is your original post. Refer to highlighted bits.

This was the ONLY question in your entire post. You were asking about the validity of this act and its compliance with islamic (sharia) law.

After numerous people condemned the acts, claiming they were infact inconsistent, you decided to flip the switch and go on a different route.

Is that the point of this thread bella? That’s the first time I’m hearing about it.

And LOL you even go on to say that whether it is sharia or not is off topic here. Do you even know what youre saying? You literally just made your original question of this thread, obsolete.

How can the question of whether a law is islamically justified or not, be irrelevant to a thread that asks whether the law is compliant with islamic rulings? That’s putting an enormous hole in your own argument.

…

That’s exactly what I do when I read bella posts.

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Southie

^ And that’s the point isn’t it. The interpretations of one word varies so much among folks with different perspectives. Honest differences exist. If one person questions OP abt a certain word , it is perfectly fine for others to state how they perceived the same word or sentence or whatever.

Now take this difference over one word and multiply it by some humongous number. And you start to get a feel for how religious laws are subject to as many interpretations as there are people.

That is a whole new can of worms to open with secular or religious laws. Can there not be a middle way? Religious people are attached to their laws and non religious attached to laws not influenced by religion. Maybe laws which are unfair and infringe on freedoms of others , and are not supported by most people, like this law can be changed.

Lot of people may think its a battle of one or the other. When they can actually co-exist like it happens in countries of subcontinent. All subcontinental countries are deeply religious and to completely change laws would be hard. Just like turning the US from secular into a Christian state.

It can be such that all religious people have laws catered to them and non-religious people have their own set of personal laws. also there is choice to label oneself from one to the other.

[Southie]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

Middle ground is overrated. There is common sense way. And there is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Your last para is chock full of naiveté. When you have religion based laws the govt decides for you whether u quality to be part of a religion. You seriously think that a homosexual person, for example, gets to declare himself as such and the community gets to make its own laws.

As for can of worms - what better time to discuss that than the present. You simply cannot view this incident in a vacuum. If u take a holistic approach, the right decision is obvious. A poll is not needed. Just common sense and sense of fair play - which all religions should teach us.

[Mezhgan]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

I don’t recall if this has been said already but in regards to separating culture from religion, there is something that must be taken into account. Tribal cultures, such as those which exist in Sudan and other places, usually have a code of ethics that is as old as the culture itself and predates Islam. These codes of ethics are deeply ingrained within the culture. When Islam spread to these societies, it was adapted and interpreted in a manner that supported these preexisting belief systems rather than the other way around. As such, it often becomes difficult to separate Islam from traditional culture but the distinction between the two is most definitely there if one closely examines specific practices and the cultures and context in which they take place.

Secondly, as much as it may gall some people, every religion has aspects which, although appropriate in times past, are unpalatable to our modern sensibilities. For better or worse, this unpalatability forces societies to choose which aspects they want to emphasise and which aspects to allow to fall by the wayside. For instance, Christian societies have allowed certain unsavoury aspects of Christianity to fall by the wayside despite being clearly stated in the Bible. Christian societies no longer emphasise the principle espoused in “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” and no longer execute witches but continue to emphasise other aspects of Christianity. Unfortunately though, the inverse is also true. Some societies, such as that of Sudan, choose to emphasise aspects of religion which are more unpalatable but ignore more tolerant, humanitarian aspects. I am not stating that cherry picking of religion is correct or incorrect but simply that it happens in every society and is inevitable.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Southie

Indigo Rain is really stretching it. Calling this a poll. And then stating people who conduct a poll have a point to prove.

We all write posts to prove some point or another. So what? I may want to pro e a point about climate change. Someone may want to prove a point on another topic. Nothing sinister there.

The operating word in bellas question was “such” shariah laws. Focus on su h. As in - in THIS case.

Speaking of bigotry, there was a reference to Hindu culture as basis for bad laws against women. I believe it is in this thread. I see no protest.

Bella in fact has stated MULTIPLE times this is not about Islam. But about such MISINTERPRETATION of Shariah law. Still folks are painting her as bigoted, with contempt for religion etc etc.

And this poster makes a disrespectful post towards “Hindu culture” - mind you , not MISINTERPRETATION of Hindu culture - and not a sound.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with that post criticizing “Hindu culture.” There are lots I can find fault in the way it is followed today. And some disagreement with a passage in Gita.

However, if you are going to go after " Hindu culture", then don’t be defensive when someone goes after MISINTERPRETATION of Islam, not Islam. You would at least agree this is much milder than an attack on “Hindu culture”. But to turn this into an attack on Islam? Come on!

Now, if you are looking for bigotry, look no further than the above example.

Southie, look at her response to one of my last posts. When I explain to her these types of killings are not condoned by Islam, that muslims don’t believe in these things, and the Quran doesn’t promote it, she says this is my cute enlightened moderate VERSION of Islam. She actually doesn’t accept this is the reality. She prefers to choose to believe that the reality of Islam is that it wants people like her dead. So in her mind, she can justify converting out of it. Bottom line, she converted out so she could marry someone she liked, and he’s prolly filled her brain with mush about Islam.

That’s sad. It’s sad that Islam put her where she is and she’s not only giving it a kick on it’s arse, she’s also accusing the rest of us as being the barbaric muslims that her husband and family probably has convinced her we are.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

I pray that we all have the mercy that Rasulullah had. This lady reminds me of the woman who used to throw trash on Rasullullah every time he walked by her neighborhood. And he still inquired how she was doing when she got sick.

That’s not a man that would have advocated this Sudanese woman to go die.

[IndiGo_Rain]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Southie, look at her response to one of my last posts. When I explain to her these types of killings are not condoned by Islam, that muslims don’t believe in these things, and the Quran doesn’t promote it, she says this is my cute enlightened moderate VERSION of Islam. She actually doesn’t accept this is the reality. She prefers to choose to believe that the reality of Islam is that it wants people like her dead. So in her mind, she can justify converting out of it. Bottom line, she converted out so she could marry someone she liked, and he’s prolly filled her brain with mush about Islam.

That’s sad. It’s sad that Islam put her where she is and she’s not only giving it a kick on it’s arse, she’s also accusing the rest of us as being the barbaric muslims that her husband and family probably has convinced her we are.

I doubt Southie will read Bella’s response to your post where she made the condescending enlightened jab and if he does, he won’t see anything wrong with Bella’s tone or words. These scholars devoted years to studying the nuances of the Arabic language, the Quran, the perspectives of the various madhabs, the science of ahadith, the sunnah and if Bella’s going to call their interpretations “enlightenment,” and believes she understands Islam better than the scholars and us, then she shouldn’t bother asking us for clarification on this shariah law.

And, PCG, it’s an utter waste of time to reason with Southie Sahib. He already insinuated that there must be something wrong with Islam since there have been so many breaches of justice in Islamic countries and each time people say that it’s a misinterpretation of shariah. If we explain that these so called rulers and their governments are corrupt and don’t represent Islam, they don’t want to listen to that. If we give them positive examples from the Sunnah, they don’t wanna listen to that. Surprisingly these two individuals who believe themselves to be broadminded and unbiased and fair, are closed to any explanations given. None of us have condoned this murder, all of us have condemned it but that’s not enough for Bella. God knows best what her intentions were, but if they were in the wrong place, then the lash back she received in the thread is kinda like karma I guess, something for her to think about.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

Problem is that these apostasy rules extend back to the beginnings of the Islamic empire. There were people after the Prophet’s (SAW)'s death that believed it to be appropriate to execute anyone who converted out. But it must be remembered that this initial government was religion-based, and so to convert out of Islam, often meant that a person was aiding the remnants of the “kuffar” which continues to exist in hiding after the death of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). You see when he broke the last set of statues in the Kaabah, anyone who was leftover in the Quraysh party leading the opposition to the muslims, had no choice but to pretend to convert. Amongst those were people who were not sincere about their conversions. So in the early days when people would “convert out” of Islam or speak against it, they were from this party. They were essentially anti-state elements and so executions, if they even happened, occurred because of the anti-state element.

And yes, in Quran, if someone commits treason against a state, then they can be executed.

So , in this light it’s been interpreted that if someone converts out of Islam, they can be executed. But this interpretation flies against other ayahs in the Quran, and so therefore, it’s not applicable. Especially not today in this day and age, when a conversion out of Islam is someone’s personal choice.

Any “hadeeth” ruling or “sharia” ruling , regardless of what sharia this is , devised by whom, and from whatever time period, if it contradicts a basic rule in the Quran, it is not true sharia.

People have been mutilating women in Africa because they are convinced the clitoris is a haraam organ. So that too, gets attributed to sharia.

This is why no one, not even real muslims, want sharia. Because there are too many people out there making s*** up.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

This is why no one, not even real muslims, want sharia. Because there are too many people out there making s*** up.

would be great if no ‘real’ muslims wanted sharia, but unfortuantely, they do. sharia exists no matter how much you and others like to deny it. and PLENTY of muslims do think its part of islamic law. many muslims are also against it as which is good.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Southie, look at her response to one of my last posts. When I explain to her these types of killings are not condoned by Islam, that muslims don’t believe in these things, and the Quran doesn’t promote it, she says this is my cute enlightened moderate VERSION of Islam.

your version of islam is quite different from many others. did i say yours is wrong? theres really no one islam. even here on GS, you will find many different versions of islam. there are muslims who think such barbaric sharia laws ARE part of islam, no matter what you think.

She actually doesn’t accept this is the reality. She prefers to choose to believe that the reality of Islam is that it wants people like her dead. So in her mind, she can justify converting out of it. Bottom line, she converted out so she could marry someone she liked, and he’s prolly filled her brain with mush about Islam.

i dont accept reality? looks like you have no clue what is going on in the muslim world. and please stop making stuff up about me. my husband has no clue about islam and he has never once said anything against it. i have spent enough years being a muslim to have my own opinion regarding it.

That’s sad. It’s sad that Islam put her where she is and she’s not only giving it a kick on it’s arse, she’s also accusing the rest of us as being the barbaric muslims that her husband and family probably has convinced her we are.

did i call you barbaric? im calling those who killed this innocent woman barbaric and hopefully you agree with that. no need for you to assume my husbands family thinks like this.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Shak

Your question doesn’t make sense to me. You’re not asking people here to condemn the murder, which they all have, you are asking them to condemn their religion. I am sorry but I find that a bit bigoted in its own sense.

You’re basically conflating two different things. You’re saying if people follow a religion, which may or may not have a vague reference to killing people who leave it, then condemning an evil act isn’t enough unless everyone condemns their entire belief system.

is condemning barbaric laws which call for murder for apostasy and marrying non-muslim the same thing in your opinion as condemning islam?

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@IndiGo_Rain

You are not gonna slow down to look at what both you and Southie are failing to understand. Yes, even Southie, because as long as he continues to say that you are doing nothing wrong, he too has failed to understand.

Let’s address the comments I’ve highlighted in the above quoted post of yours.

1. If you were seeking advice on a personal matter in which you want a general opinion on whether your actions were right or wrong, that’s a different thing altogether. But what you’re basically doing here is conducting a poll. And a poll is usually not conducted without a purpose. People use poll results to prove a point or to use the results to make a decision. Why do you need to know “how many” people condemn this “law?” Tell us Bella, tell us why you need to see “how many” of us condemn this killing and why does Southie think it’s okay for you to conduct this “head count” of sorts?

2. Nobody is sugar coating the shariah laws. Go read my last post where I provided info regarding the scholars’ interpretation of the apostasy laws. That was the second time I posted information that I researched. You don’t want to consider or accept the research findings posted. If we tell you of how the scholars interpret the law…you call that “sugar coating.” Bella, shouldn’t you be happy or even relieved in knowing that some scholars don’t believe that the death penalty applies to individuals or simple apostasy such as your own and that it refers to high treason? Shouldn’t you be relieved that the scholars say that ordinary simpletons like us cannot call someone an apostate and sentence them to death…that this is not a simple thing but a matter in which there is an actual process? Shouldn’t you be relieved in knowing that the Prophet SAWS didn’t kill anyone for being an apostate? Or are all these things “sugar coating” to you? Would you rather hear us say that this atrocity which took place is connected with Islam? Would that make you feel better?

**Sure we’ll condemn this act, and we all do. If you want to call it a law, then fine, we’ll call it a law. We condemn this law, but we don’t associate it with Shariah and Islam. **And is our condemning of this woman’s death not enough for you? Or will you only be at peace if we condemn it specifically as a “shariah” law?

Im glad you condemn this law and thats all i wanted to hear from posters. im not saying this is truly islamic law or not as there are many muslims who disagree with sharia laws yet many who also agree with sharia laws. my point in this thread was simply to show how evil such laws are and it exists today and affects people. our condemnation will not bring this girl back to life but muslim world should speak up against such barbaric laws which do use religion as their motive.

[Mezhgan]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Problem is that these apostasy rules extend back to the beginnings of the Islamic empire.
This is why no one, not even real muslims, want sharia. Because there are too many people out there making s*** up.

The nasty problem with this is that some people do not understand this (or deliberately refuse to believe it) and believe that many things which were appropriate at the beginnings of the Islamic empire are appropriate now and continue to apply and accuse anyone who suggests otherwise of Bidah. While these people may not be in the majority, it is quite disingenuous to claim that they do not exist.

[Southie]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Southie, look at her response to one of my last posts. When I explain to her these types of killings are not condoned by Islam, that muslims don’t believe in these things, and the Quran doesn’t promote it, she says this is my cute enlightened moderate VERSION of Islam. She actually doesn’t accept this is the reality. She prefers to choose to believe that the reality of Islam is that it wants people like her dead. So in her mind, she can justify converting out of it. Bottom line, she converted out so she could marry someone she liked, and he’s prolly filled her brain with mush about Islam.

That’s sad. It’s sad that Islam put her where she is and she’s not only giving it a kick on it’s arse, she’s also accusing the rest of us as being the barbaric muslims that her husband and family probably has convinced her we are.

PCG you know I like to read ur views..Maybe I didn’t read that post from bella. Bella if u actually said that about Islam as a whole please take it back. I know ur posts also bella. Reasonable and fair for the most part. Am sure either u had a bad day or there is a misunderstanding.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Maula_Jatt

These two will NEVER EVER back down. Their intolerance far outstrips that of anyone on this site. Even the overzealous religious types show more knowledge, comprehension, and tolerance than them.

You tell them this is against islam and they respond with youre sugar coating your own faith LOL

if you dont want to believe it why ask in the first place?

I think what happened was just. Happy? Now these two can both have spasms of joy.

There. Can we give these two seekers of justice Nobel Peace prizes and shut this dumb thread that has not only gone way off topic but was rather pointless to begin with. Just two people with too much time on their hands out to discredit islam time after time after time.

dumb thread? whats so ‘dumb’ about discussing such an important issue? its sad how people want to ignore issues like this

[Southie]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

PCG I just read bellas clarification to u. That is how I interpreted her post. She was only going after a version of Islam that is being followed by some that uses such laws.

Maybe thread should be closed?

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Mezhgan

The nasty problem with this is that some people do not understand this (or deliberately refuse to believe it) and believe that many things which were appropriate at the beginnings of the Islamic empire are appropriate now and continue to apply and accuse anyone who suggests otherwise of Bidah. While these people may not be in the majority, it is quite disingenuous to claim that they do not exist.

exactly.
why is it so hard for most of the posters here to accept this?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@bella88

exactly.
why is it so hard for most of the posters here to accept this?

Whats your view about the verses from Quran specifically disallowing marriage of a Muslim lady with a non-Muslim?