Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
You are not gonna slow down to look at what both you and Southie are failing to understand. Yes, even Southie, because as long as he continues to say that you are doing nothing wrong, he too has failed to understand.
Let’s address the comments I’ve highlighted in the above quoted post of yours.
If you were seeking advice on a personal matter in which you want a general opinion on whether your actions were right or wrong, that’s a different thing altogether. But what you’re basically doing here is conducting a poll. And a poll is usually not conducted without a purpose. People use poll results to prove a point or to use the results to make a decision. Why do you need to know “how many” people condemn this “law?” Tell us Bella, tell us why you need to see “how many” of us condemn this killing and why does Southie think it’s okay for you to conduct this “head count” of sorts?
Nobody is sugar coating the shariah laws. Go read my last post where I provided info regarding the scholars’ interpretation of the apostasy laws. That was the second time I posted information that I researched. You don’t want to consider or accept the research findings posted. If we tell you of how the scholars interpret the law…you call that “sugar coating.” Bella, shouldn’t you be happy or even relieved in knowing that some scholars don’t believe that the death penalty applies to individuals or simple apostasy such as your own and that it refers to high treason? Shouldn’t you be relieved that the scholars say that ordinary simpletons like us cannot call someone an apostate and sentence them to death…that this is not a simple thing but a matter in which there is an actual process? Shouldn’t you be relieved in knowing that the Prophet SAWS didn’t kill anyone for being an apostate? Or are all these things “sugar coating” to you? Would you rather hear us say that this atrocity which took place is connected with Islam? Would that make you feel better?
Sure we’ll condemn this act, and we all do. If you want to call it a law, then fine, we’ll call it a law. We condemn this law, but we don’t associate it with Shariah and Islam. And is our condemning of this woman’s death not enough for you? Or will you only be at peace if we condemn it specifically as a “shariah” law?
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
I think this discussion started by Bella has actually been quite productive and fruitful. If any outsiders were to google this lady’s story and come across this thread they would find that there is widespread condemnation amongst the Pakistani community. That what is happening in Sudan may be cultural and does not reflect all viewpoints.
Thanks to this topic being posted here i was able to research this law and gain wisdom for the posts here. Never really pondered this topic much before.
Also in the petition i have posted people are free to give reasons for why they are against this. I suggest we do mention the arguments mentioned here so that there is greater awareness. I looked at Bella’s initial post and it did seem that she wanted assurance from her community that they were opposed to this. Everyone wants to feel like they belong to their community even if they on surface level are different. It would seem she wanted to hear all of you to condemn this act and that it is a part of actual religious law and she would prefer what you say to be law instead.
I think later comments from either side were based on misunderstandings of wordings as well as assumptions of what we think are reasons for “others” posting here. That there must be agendas at play to undermine each other. No one should think they can change personal views of others but instead we can have discussion of laws that, unfairly, are seen as representative and whether we like it or not gives others a bad image. This story Bella is bringing up has been in the news many times, many western media have written articles on it that people have read. They have mistakenly characterised it as religious perhaps based on view of outliers. They don’t know the real story. They hear few words that fundamentalists or hardline radicals say who are adamant about the law and think all think like that. To their credit they also mention that there are clerics and lot of others who disagree..but to the average outsider who has no connection they remember the shocking words more than the sane ones. Personally, i think this is the perspective Bella mentioned rather than wanting to generalise about everyone or say there is anything religious in it. She did apologise if she misworded incorrectly.
Even the woman’s brother is supporting her killing which makes me think it is cultural. Perhaps society or even honour based.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Indigo Rain is really stretching it. Calling this a poll. And then stating people who conduct a poll have a point to prove.
We all write posts to prove some point or another. So what? I may want to pro e a point about climate change. Someone may want to prove a point on another topic. Nothing sinister there.
The operating word in bellas question was “such” shariah laws. Focus on su h. As in - in THIS case.
Speaking of bigotry, there was a reference to Hindu culture as basis for bad laws against women. I believe it is in this thread. I see no protest.
Bella in fact has stated MULTIPLE times this is not about Islam. But about such MISINTERPRETATION of Shariah law. Still folks are painting her as bigoted, with contempt for religion etc etc.
And this poster makes a disrespectful post towards “Hindu culture” - mind you , not MISINTERPRETATION of Hindu culture - and not a sound.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with that post criticizing “Hindu culture.” There are lots I can find fault in the way it is followed today. And some disagreement with a passage in Gita.
However, if you are going to go after " Hindu culture", then don’t be defensive when someone goes after MISINTERPRETATION of Islam, not Islam. You would at least agree this is much milder than an attack on “Hindu culture”. But to turn this into an attack on Islam? Come on!
Now, if you are looking for bigotry, look no further than the above example.
These two will NEVER EVER back down. Their intolerance far outstrips that of anyone on this site. Even the overzealous religious types show more knowledge, comprehension, and tolerance than them.
You tell them this is against islam and they respond with youre sugar coating your own faith LOL
if you dont want to believe it why ask in the first place?
I think what happened was just. Happy? Now these two can both have spasms of joy.
There. Can we give these two seekers of justice Nobel Peace prizes and shut this dumb thread that has not only gone way off topic but was rather pointless to begin with. Just two people with too much time on their hands out to discredit islam time after time after time.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
I’m not the only one who is straaaching things here, I guess you can accuse PCg, Shak, Maula of stretching too. Yes, we all post to prove a point, but it’s disturbing if one is trying to prove a point about an entire group of people. And if Bella says it’s not about Islam, then she needs to stop associating the event with Islam and its shariah. Also, Southie, I guess the people you often to defend have a tendency for flawed wording.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
I understand your viewpoint. Maybe her wording was not clear or use of words unclear. I think she also apologised for offence caused. Like others also who did the same. This shows it is a civilised discussion. Personally, i felt when Bella did ask for how many people condemn the law she was asking in her community and wanted to see that others did condemn it.
Her initial posts may have some emotion to them which i think is because of her personal connection. Perhaps this is not a question she would bring up to those close to her in real life. People are casting doubt on her based on her history. Well, i have seen her comment in showbiz Pakistan on pakistani dramas and I have seen her offer her condolences to the victims of Sunday. She is as Pakistani as others and we don’t know her reasons for her decisions and also her decision is not part of the topic. Maybe she just wanted to see consensus against this in her online Pakistani community. If her friends or non Pakistanis/non desis point this news out and ask do most Pakistanis agree..Bella can say she is part of an online Pakistani community where majority is against this. These views coming from someone who is not part of the majority Pakistani population will show Pakistanis are as open minded as any other ethnicity whether they be Turkish or Albanian Muslims who are seen to be liberal minded.
Not much but positive perceptions can count.
Now maybe my assumption is incorrect but when i read “sugar coating” laws i felt Bella was talking about the existing laws (note im not saying they are religious or not) which are unequivocal about punishments for apostasy and are supported by clerics as being “sharia” when they are not. I agree we shouldn’t be quick to conclude that these are “sharia” even if insisted by some misguided clerics. I feel Bella was giving this the label those clerics had and leaving it open to discussion. I have posted an article by someone who was an ex muslim who actually used scholars and points in Quran for why this is not allowed. The issue is that this practice is in many countries and speaking out and challenging it can only be good for all. Why would anyone who is apostate or non believer have any issues with better laws existing and scholars supporting them over the current ones? It’s better for them and it’s better for believers as it’s better for overall image and portrays it in right light.
I think both sides if they think the other is not part of “agenda” or has “ulterior motives” could use the knowledge gained on this thread for better and for educating others out of the community. Let’s not either side base our assumptions based on what we’ve heard about the other in the past. While it is not right for some to base our idea of what is “sharia” law on what some outlier radicals or clerics say is “sharia” which is unfortunately what is portrayed in media when they take statements of such people and is used in practice in some countries like this case. I feel that Bella was concerned with practical application of the law and this is where her perspective is coming from. Also, at the same time let’s not base our assumptions that people like Bella, Southie and others are out to portray all people here in a generalised way based on what media perceptions we have of apostates and non religious people. That they must hate what they have left behind or look down on others. It is not necessary that all think that also. There are many who are neutral to what they have left behind. It could be simply that due to their situation and choices they do not think they make a good religious person and want to be honest rather than pretend. No one likes pretenders. They still belong to their nationality such as Pakistani for Bella and Indian for Southie even though they are not religious like the vast majority of the population. And to the non-desi they are still part of their nationality and are equal targets for racism based on news like this when circulated in media.
Both groups if they understand each other and wanted to can counteract stereotypes and make positive change.
Religious people here who are knowledgeable can voice these misinterpretations and bring up those scholars with alternate interpretations to those in their community and others. Let others know that these cases unfairly put unfavourable light on people. I know they do but on a larger scale. At the same time knowing some people in the community can be in a similar personal situation make them feel more sympathetic to it.
At the same time people who are non religious here can understand the religious perspective. They can challenge stereotypes to outsiders who assume all religious people secretly believe this or that as non-religious people they face persecution because they no longer belong. They can counteract this and state while religious people exist in the community they do not impose their views on others…and there is no compulsion etc.
This actually has more impact coming from someone who is non religious/does not belong or is an ex-religious person of that community. It can change others views.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Savera, tumharay aanay se GS pe andhera chaa gaya hai. You’re saying that Bella could happlily tell people that her online Pakistani friends condemn this, well we do condemn it. I don’t think anyone here condones it. If that’s what she wanted then she should be satisfied with our condemnation of this woman’s murder. If she’s not satisfied or relieved with the condemnation, then I can’t help but question if she’s looking for something more. What that may be, I don’t know.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Let Bella explain what she meant by sugarcoating. She could have meant it for sugarcoating the current laws in that country which are falsely portrayed as religious rather than religion.
She did apologise if she had mistakes in expression. This topic is being discussed in 1000s of forums, 900 000 have signed a petition against this law.. how many can you shut down? Isn’t it better to correct someone if they have incorrect opinions as long as civility is maintained. Rather than closing discussion isn’t it better to show how this is wrong according to arguments like people have done here. It may not mean much but you can never know how many will read this thread and have their views challenged.
Anyway i don’t think she is dead yet. So no one needs to have feelings either way. Lot of religious as well as non religious leaders are also trying to save her from this punishment. Sudan has signed the UN declaration of human rights so at least this must make a different.
I think we need to forgive others who may have had unintentionally said something hurtful rather than hold it and think this characterises their entire perspective and views. I was told as an Indian and thus automatically a Hindu i shouldn’t interfere on this thread. Something i did not even bring up. Why? I tried to see both perspectives and even posted an article which shows this is against religion. In the West, often middle eastern, indian, pakistani people are often conflated. Even in this article her religion is more important than her ethnicity. When i have been subject to racism for being brown and based on such stereotypes that people unfairly make of Muslims i am not asked my background. Neither are the Sikhs of America who were targeted after 911 and neither was the elderly Indian Hindu gentleman who was pushed in front of a train in NY because a racist thought he was responsible for 911. If bella is seen as Pakistani she won’t be asked how religious she is before being subjected to racism either. Also note the recent Ms America who is stereotyped as middle eastern and a “terrorist” even though she is desi. Personally, i think it is important to correct these negative stereotypes.
I get no pleasure reading negative stereotypes of other desis just like I get no pleasure out of all Indians being stereotyped as rapists and there being a rape culture. Only thing an individual can do is speak out against people who make statements supportive of such practices in the community and let outsiders know that not all are like that.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Maybe she was looking for more comments on this from more people or other members. I think she said she is relieved with the condemnation as she mentioned in a comment. I expressed what I thought her perspective was. I will let her clarify again for herself. I just find that doubt about nationality misplaced. She has mentioned her parents working in Pakistan, has commented on pakistani drama threads etc and she says she is Pakistani. Then why doubt it.
I think some wording could be misinterpreted. I did try to see your perspective as well..and you have right to put forth your viewpoint.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Also one can’t have it both ways. In another thread, an argument was made for an Islamic country to have Shariah as the governing law. Since the majority has the right to decide.
Each time such incidents happen, they are dismissed as an outlier - a rare misinterpretation of Shariah. Isn’t it a fair question to ask - Would you concede that in the 21st century, countries that have Shariah law in place have significant number of such misinterpretations? I believe the answer is yes.
The would it be fair to conclude - that is why we cannot have religion based laws. For they are subject to misinterpretation more often than not.
I don’t believe one can do both of following and not be contradictory
State this case was misinterpretation of Shariah
Be in favor of Shariah as law for the nation.
For it is IMPOSSIBLE to implement shariah as written and intended. Human beings have shown their proclivity to misinterpret it more often than not.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Alright Savera, I’ll make sure to post more often in the the Pakistani dramas thread so that I, too, can be cut more slack. :k: And this is not about Pakistanis. It’s about religion even when it has no place in religion. Don’t know why you’re bringing up nationality when I never questioned it. But I can see how you’d be concerned this lil’ nooktah of doubt as it’s a subject you’re passionate about.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Key word being misinterpretation. I saw it in that way as well. Perhaps things got lost in translation. I actually see discussion and clarification of this a good thing for ALL. I have not read all comments in detail but I did not see you generalise about religion. Any religion for that matter but as a misinterpretation. I saw the reference..may be it was on the relationships thread. waise hindus nepal, sri lanka, indonesia main bhi hote hain. All cultures in all countries are not the same..nothing to do with religion. In some Muslim as well Hindu cultures in subcontinent/asia the groom lives with the wife’s family. So it’s not all homogenous.. generalising can never be accurate. There are some issues with desi mindset in regards to women which is not related to religion or even culture. We’re diverse people. To say stereotypes about Pakistanis, Indians, Muslims, Hindus do not or will never affect all desis is incorrect. The lady who pushed Mr Sen onto the train tracks didn’t know much about his religion or religious differences. She wasn’t even white she was hispanic. This is in NY a diverse place. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/30/nyregion/woman-is-held-in-death-of-man-pushed-onto-subway-tracks-in-queens.html?_r=0
To credit of mods they edited out the reference to me being indian and hindu as a reason for not interfering. Nowhere did i mention my religion. It was not even related and neither is being Indian relevant to this Sudan based article. If there are disagreements about religious matters it is better for it to be discussed. An Indian just like a Pakistani can be Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Parsi, Buddhist.
PS. You should look up the Kalash people in Pakistan. Amazing tribe in Pakistan who have been around for many centuries. Some of my non Pakistani friends are fascinated by them.
Don’t take Mr Jatt’s comments to heart. Log yahan dil ke acche hain bas baat mein misunderstanding ho jaati hai. As long as communication occurs that’s important.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
@ shamsavera , aray bhai my post had nothing to do with the gentleman you mentioned in the last para.
Of course the folks here are nice. I wouldn’t be here otherwise. 99.95 pct of people here are nice. And that is actually the point of this thread. It is addressed to the 0.05 pct who would unabashedly support implementation of any interpretation of of Shariah. We know that 0.05 pct exists. It is ok to prove a point to that 0.05 pct. No, it is imperative.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
I was giving what I thought could be interpretation of Bella’s words. I did suggest it could have been worded better. I didn’t criticise your arguments or say that your view was incorrect. Actually i agreed with it. Since Bella is the OP i was trying to give her perspective. I would do the same for you if your point was misunderstood..and actually I agreed with the arguments you posted and my article says that it is misinterpretation. In any case you should also post more in the Pakistani dramas thread. Lot of good new dramas there. It’s not about Pakistanis but since Bella is Pakistani and posting in a Pakistani forum she maybe wants to know the views of Pakistanis.
You did not question but it was mentioned by others.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Main bhai nahi hoon behan hoon. Anyway im not going to speak for others. I have not interacted long enough to know the % of people who think otherwise. You are an experienced member so you know more. Think ive bitten more than i can chew on this thread. Think ive said enough on views.
It’s not about Pakistanis but since Bella is Pakistani and posting in a Pakistani forum she maybe wants to know the views of Pakistanis.
behan hoon. Anyway im not going to speak for others. I have not interacted long enough to know the % of people who think otherwise. You are an experienced member so you know more. Think ive bitten more than i can chew on this thread. Think ive said enough on views.