Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
^ and ^^ Good gestures and comments above. Perspective and viewpoints do not make someone’s nationality. Otherwise they’d be no different perspectives/dissenting voices which exist in all countries. As much as we want to think and hope everyone will think like us everyone has freeedom, at least in mind, to express their views. This shouldnt make them less Pakistan or Indian.
Now both of these pages are rarities in their country and can be viewed by majority as not having right priorities, being too idealistic and not nationalistic enough..still their views and perspective doesn’t make them less of the country they are from. Everyone should have freedom to discuss topics even if not from their nationality. This topic is not even Pakistani-Indian yet we are all commenting on it. I fully support people discussing issues of Indian origin because wrong is wrong and is not supported by any religion. I also get told by some im not Indian enough because of my views. In the article i posted there were arguments on why this is not part of sharia and used for treason initially and should not be used in form it is. Then at the same time it still happens, which is inhumane and bad for image also and I think OP wanted to see people speak out about it which everyone here did. First step for change is being aware and speaking out.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
The distinction of whether these laws are Islamic or not is a huge deal, and it’s the root of this conversation. These “laws” are not sharia. Not REAL sharia. Because they go against the teachings of Islam - Quran and the example of the Prophet (SAW). He didn’t treat people like that. If someone did not believe, they didn’t believe. He just kept preaching, and anyone who listened, listened. He didn’t go attacking people with rocket launchers. He didn’t chop peoples’ heads off because they didn’t want to believe.
So, if you’re going to bring into this whole discussion the idea that you converted out, and thank God, because look, killing people senselessly is what Islam is about and you’re against that, then missy, you need some education.
The sudanese judgement on this woman is NOT Islamic. It’s NOT shariat. They can call it what they want, but no real muslim stands for it. Oh wait, but you’re not muslim.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
LOL Bella.
Since antiquity, horrible and mindless acts of violence have been committed in the name of deities.
In this case, a few people have committed a grotesque act, you come on here to challenge “guys who support every sharia rule” to see if they what they have to say in mere attempts to discredit them or their religion.
I would like to outline the inconsistency in your own arguments and to advise that if you are going to have a go at religion this way, you need to be sound, clear and much more smarter than you are showcasing yourself to be.
Below is your original post. Refer to highlighted bits.
This was the ONLY question in your entire post. You were asking about the validity of this act and its compliance with islamic (sharia) law.
After numerous people condemned the acts, claiming they were infact inconsistent, you decided to flip the switch and go on a different route.
Is that the point of this thread bella? That’s the first time I’m hearing about it.
And LOL you even go on to say that whether it is sharia or not is off topic here. Do you even know what youre saying? You literally just made your original question of this thread, obsolete.
How can the question of whether a law is islamically justified or not, be irrelevant to a thread that asks whether the law is compliant with islamic rulings? That’s putting an enormous hole in your own argument.
Bella the vast majority of people alive will condemn such an action. What are you trying to prove by forcing everyone here to display their condemnation?
Please keep consistency in your arguments. It makes the reader not take you seriously and you just come off as a troll who just wants to cause trouble, which may or may not be the case here.
EDIT: You’re free to have whatever opinion you want of people with faith. If you’re going to take a few nut jobs as a representation of over a billion people, good for you. But when you come here and question people’s faith in attempts to discredit it, people will respond. And let’s not pretend it’s anything other than that. A simple glance at your post history CLEARLY shows the content you have for religion and faith.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
^ Re the last sentence above - a look at bellas history does not show her contempt for faith and religion. Her post history does show contempt for intolerance towards minorities in the name of religion. So while we are painting people based on their posting history, it would be fair to bring out this distinction.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
As far as inconsistency and bella contradicting herself, I respectfully disagree.
Indeed religious misuse is not restricted to any one religion. This case happened to be abt misinterpretation of Islamic law. Bella brought up her situation because it was similar to this ladys. So at least from my POV her bringing it up is relevant to the discussion.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
What appears inconsistent to some is consistent when I read it. She started off asking if this law was compliant with Islam. She also stated there are some who would support every shariah law there is. For me it was obvious from this question she was NOT targeting the religion. But addressing those who would throw their weight being any interpretation of Shariah. To deny that such folks do exist is simply naive.
When it was pointed out this is misinterpretation of Shariah law, she was consistent in stating what to me was obvious - and I am paraphrasing- this is not about Islam. It is about the fact that such misinterpretation do happen. When that happens, there will be those who support shariah as implemented. No matter how unfair.
Clearly none of the folks who posted here fall in that category. But some have misinterpreted her posts as an attack on faith / religion. Which it is not.
We are not lawyers here. And sometimes there may be inconsistency. That is where a person’s posting history comes into play. And bella’ s posting history clearly shows she is a very tolerant thoughtful and fair person.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Southie you have a history of jumping to comment without reading things properly. Inconsistencies in your argument, even hypocrisies are pointed out because you start typing before you read.
Read my response to Bella. Properly. Although I know me saying this is futile.
Nevertheless, I will respond to you.
From your first post;
Her post history does show contempt for intolerance towards minorities in the name of religion. So while we are painting people based on their posting history, it would be fair to bring out this distinction.
Yes she only seems to care about minorities that are being mistreated in the name of religion. No other minority. Ever. If you want to ignore clear signs, go ahead. Wouldn’t be the first and wont be the last.
From your second post;
Indeed religious misuse is not restricted to any one religion. This case happened to be abt misinterpretation of Islamic law. Bella brought up her situation because it was similar to this ladys. So at least from my POV her bringing it up is relevant to the discussion.
Firstly, I don’t care about her situation. I didn’t mention it and won’t comment on it. That’s not what she made the thread about. I still don’t know what you’re trying to say here. I don’t state anything being irrelevant in her post. Just contradictory.
Your third post is just repeat politically correct statements with no new addition to the discussion. But here’s this gem.
When it was pointed out this is misinterpretation of Shariah law, she was consistent in stating what to me was obvious - and I am paraphrasing- this is not about Islam
I guess you didnt read what I said to Bella. At all. Wouldnt be the first time though would it?
Southie, Bella, you two seem to have a knack for holding religion responsible for atrocities committed by followers of those religions. You people fail to realise that through your own unwavering bias you’re promoting the kind of hate for religion that only propagates the issue. And again the both of you only unite in force against Islam. Based on the content of your posts there is no more I wish to say to you.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Sorry I read the first para and stopped. No interest in participating in flaming discussions. You are entitled to ur opinion about my history. But not ur facts.
I am spotting a trend. You appear to have the tendency to discredit those who disagree with u by bringing up their perceived history of intolerant or hypocritical posts. A non starter for me, I am afraid.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
please share your opinion regarding this particular case and what you think about laws which call for KILLING a person for apostasy instead of trying to sugar coat barbaric religious laws.
the point of this thread is to see how many people will condem such sharia laws. very simple. but i see, its very hard for some people, and i cannot understand why.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
so do you think whats happening is barbaric ? thats all im trying to ask people here.
I’m afraid you donot know much about sharia or islam yourself PCG but i do like your enlightened moderation version though.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
any one can believe any one, there were wars in the name of jesus(pbuh), please bring a reference about in first law in first islamic state(madina).
you have to read history a little. Back then changing muslims to pagan was changing sides with loyalties. rather then intellectual venture.
Why so capital punishment ?? because in todays world its called treason and punishable by death!! Ihre Datenschutzeinstellungen
“Traditionally, the families of traitors were punished along with the traitors themselves, to act as a deterrent to committing treason or participating in treasonous acts with family members. In addition to being sentenced to death, all of the traitor’s property would be confiscated, and his or her family members might be forced to forfeit property as well in punishment. Traitors could not will property to other family members, and individuals related to someone who had committed treason faced serious social stigma.”
(this is from today)
Now if some group or people still want to do that, you can not stop such morons.
Remember when whole Rome use to slaugher in the name of jesus, with the consent ot pope?
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Bella,
Nobody on here, not even the strongest Muslim on here, would condone the killing of this woman. The difference is that these Muslim members whose opinion you seek don’t associate the crime with Islam and its teachings…whereas you, despite not being a Muslim, DO associate it with Islam. It seems you want that association to be there so that you can justify your own sentiments about Islam. Reflect over this, look deep within yourself and ask yourself why our condemnation is so necessary for you, what does it prove for you, what do you gain from it? Be honest with yourself and not defensive. If the Muslims on GS condemn this killing, then the only thing this should prove to you is that they are overall sensible people, that their belief system is not inhumane. It should not prove to you…or rather you should not try to prove to yourself that they are against their religion and thus use the condemnation against them for your own validation.
And you need to get off the forum and do your research on what Islam says about the matter. You might say that this is why you opened the thread, to learn from is Muslims what Islam says about apostasy. Well, first of all the Muslims here don’t know everything about Islam and secondly seeking knowledge should be done with an open mind and without trying to prove a point.
In one website I read that the Prophet SAWS did not kill anyone for apostasy, that there’s no record of him doing so. It stated that there was a man who came to the Prophet SAWS 3 times, telling him that he’s going to apostate; he SAWS did not inflict any penalty on him. The man then left Madina and nobody was sent after him to arrest or kill him. There are scholars that argue that the death sentence is not for simple or individual apostasy, but rather for acts of treason. And there are nations that have designated the death penalty for acts of treason, so it wouldn’t be confined to Islam. It is also said that hadith stating that apostates should be killed doesn’t have a strong foundation because it was only transmitted from the Prophet SAWS by one person and that it is open to interpretation.
I will say it again and it’s the same thing that PCG and others have said, STOP associating (in your mind) this atrocity with Islam and Muslims. Just stop it. You should not get the Muslims on GS…including those select and unnamed Muslims whom according to you “alway seem to agree with every Shariah rule”…to “agree” with you that a certain “Shariah law” is “barbaric.” The reason for this is that a Muslim knows his faith isn’t barbaric, that shariah is not barbaric, that his religion is just…and he/she will not use the word “barbaric” for any aspect of Islam. If he or she does find an act barbaric, it’s because it does not reflect Islam and its values at all.
If you and comrade Southie think that Muslims on GS should “speak up” and condemn this particular “shariah law” for being inhumane…then we will only condemn this “act” for being inhumane. I use the word act, because anything which unjustly distorts/manipulates shariah law…is the execution of an inhumane act…which has nothing to do with Shariah law and Islam.
The woman in this article is dead. Our condemnation will not bring her back. Chances are that our mass condemnation is not going to make a dent’s worth of difference in the mindset of the corrupt political regimes of various Islamic nations. That said, stop setting our “condemnation” as the condition for how you personally view Islam and Muslims. Many of us here wouldn’t want our own siblings and children to be executed if …God forbid…they were to denounce Islam, much less support the killing of the woman in the article. There is no need for us to “sugar coat” or justify this law…because this act of injustice has naught to do with Shariah law and Islam. Anything which is a gross or severely simple interpretation of a law…has nothing to do with the law…it can’t be called “abiding by the law” just because a few corrupt Muslim leaders “carry it out.” And this will lead to more “open-minded” circular-thought responses from you and Southie, I’m sure.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Your question doesn’t make sense to me. You’re not asking people here to condemn the murder, which they all have, you are asking them to condemn their religion. I am sorry but I find that a bit bigoted in its own sense.
You’re basically conflating two different things. You’re saying if people follow a religion, which may or may not have a vague reference to killing people who leave it, then condemning an evil act isn’t enough unless everyone condemns their entire belief system.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
I think you’ve gotten that answer from everyone here. I’m not sure who you’re waiting for to come along that says “yes, this is jaahiz in Islam”. So then what? You’ll stand up and give yourself a clap and pat on the back for abandoning the faith of your parents? Meanwhile the rest of us are saying it’s not part of Islam, and in your opinion, we’ve just got an “enlightened moderate version” of Islam, as if it’s not even the real Islam, it’s just an excuse we’ve made up for the reality of Islam.
I do not condone these actions, and neither does Islam. Grow up and deal with it. The people who do, are not here, and they have a poor understanding of Islam. These same countries also believe horrid things like female mutiliation are a part of Islam, so I guess now that’s the Truth too?
Just because some jaahil out there ascribes something to Islam, doesn’t make it so.
If Islam was all about killing off anyone that did not believe then the first person Rasulullah should have gone after was his uncle. In fact, he shouldn’t have wasted years and years of his life in preaching peace, he should have just started killing people.
The wars that happened in Islamic history in Muhammad’s (SAW) time, unfortunately, were wars of desperation and defense against a genocide happening against the early believers. That’s where the verses about killing kaafirs come in. Apart from self-defense in those situations, no Believer has a right to raise his/her hand against anyone else.
And the Quran is pretty direct on this. If you care to actually read it.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Bella I don’t think any Muslim here will say what happened was right and in accordance with Islam.
People nowadays use religion as a tool to do and say what they want. What happened was wrong but in many uneducated and male dominated areas where women cannot choose a life partner, these things happen. Religion is not to blame here, but a lack of education and equal treatment of women. Women are killed everyday sadly because they want to choose their own spouse who may be a different religion/caste/sect/race/nationality, etc. The list goes on. So please don’t blame Islam or Sharia for this. It’s simply illiterate idiots using Islam to justify their horrendous actions. No religion that I know of says the killing of an innocent person is just. And also in saying that, if she left Islam that also is her own choice, you cannot force faith onto anyone.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
Time is of the essence. This is a case people of all backgrounds know about. They may make assumptions which have been cleared up by people posting here. It’s good that it is discussed. I’m not sure if she is dead or not yet..maybe we can still save her. Please sign the petition started by a western country citizen.
900 000 people have already signed. Those who know this is misuse can mention these reasons in the petition.
The fact that Bella bought this to attention helps those in the know say how law is being misused and is not compatible with religion for those who had any doubts.
The lady in question is a mother,daughter and also a doctor by profession. she also apparently is a good human being. Maybe the Sudanese government will be more yielding if more people make their voice heard especially those in the know.
I feel these laws are matter of peer pressure. If one country has them the other has to show they at just as tough and have them also.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
There is some good news. In May she gave birth to a baby girl in prison. So at least she does not have to worry about her baby and she can spend those initial important months bonding with the child watching her child smile at 6 weeks, laugh at 16 weeks, say a few words by 12 months of age and walk by 15 months. That she will develop normally.
Hopefully, the gov will change their mind. It has happened in the past. Hopefully the mother will get to see her child grow into a beautiful, accomplished young woman.
I’m quite sure Sudan does not have a surplus of doctors so why are they killing away the few resources they have.
Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam
As for last para, nowhere has she stated people have to condemn an entire belief system. She simply stated that people should condemn the apostasy law. As for whether the laws of the region may or may not have a vague reference to killing those who leave it, she has simply claimed certain countries that implement such laws do have such laws in place. And she has invited people to condemn such laws unconditionally.
She has not asked anyone to condemn their entire belief system. Only part of the belief system that advocates such laws that kill innocent people.