Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@Southie

Just saw about an hour and half ago about Karachi attack. Had no idea. Out of respect, am out of this thread. Too depressing.

Main bhi. Condolences to all those affected. Props to the Pakistani army for controlling the situation. I have a friend who uses Karachi airport quite a lot and landed on 3rd June. It’s scary to think how someone in the midst of it would have felt.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

I have a friend who converted out of Islam, and same thing. She’ll bring all sorts of press stories of bad things people are doing , who happen to have muslim names, or they say these bad deeds are in accordance with Islam. Just to justify her decision to convert out. Must have been some insecure decision if we have to keep bringing up proof of how horrible muslims are.

[teggy]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

OP: I just want to apologize if any of what I said was hurtful. I assure you the intention was not to cause any animosity. I am guilty of just becoming so focused on the point I’m trying to drive home that I may lose remembrance of lessons of Islam which teaches us to be kind to everyone alike, and always say a good word. My hope is that you will see my replies as an attempt to satisfy your initial question, and If I have fallen short in doing so, then It’s because I lack knowledge, and admit my shortcomings.

Please see the responses in their proper context, and I hope they will make sense and address the issue from my limited understanding.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

Oh and furthermore, if we wanna go after people being killed and abused for being from a certain religion, do you want me to start on the atrocities in Burma, or how about Palestine, or how about Bosnia? How about muslim murders in Gujrat?

So are all Christians, Jews, and Hindus bad people, because of those isolated areas of abuse in the world? Should I encourage my Christian friends to convert out of Christianity because of the abuse and murders that went on in Bosnia? Should I pose those stories to you and use those examples in history to show how you shouldn’t be a Christian?

Hitting home yet?

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

I have a friend who converted out of Islam, and same thing. She’ll bring all sorts of press stories of bad things people are doing , who happen to have muslim names, or they say these bad deeds are in accordance with Islam. Just to justify her decision to convert out. Must have been some insecure decision if we have to keep bringing up proof of how horrible muslims are.

Secure people do not try to preach to others no doubt what you are saying is correct. Perhaps your friend in a misguided way wants you to feel sympathetic for her. I think it’s great that you are maintaining great relations with her despite her provoking actions. Maybe as this a personal issue for Bella and since she is Pakistani and knows similar laws exist in Pakistan she feels emotional about it. No doubt not everyone should be painted with the brush. It could be an oversight on her behalf and like Southie said she maybe just wanted to criticise such laws which put people to death. Death is irreversible and even capital punishment for murderers is being questioned in the West. There are plenty of prosperous Muslim countries which have fair and just laws like Turkey, Albania etc so it should not be seen as a religious issue but one of laws. I’d think there is enough societal stigma against such actions to deter most people from doing things casually.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

I think these apostasy laws are ridiculous. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. That was God’s deal with Shaitan. And God will be the Judge at the end. Not me. Not the Pakistani court, and not the Sudanese court or local sudanese elders who made these laws in the first place.

But to say that this is what all muslims must believe in, that’s ridiculous. A lot of people, in fact the majority in fact, in Pakistan are against the Blasphemy laws. No one can say anything to the mullah brigade because of them, and those jerks are free to do what they want precisely because of those laws. Are those laws condoned by the God that muslims believe in? Probably not. Not based on evidence from the Quran.

So let’s stop calling these laws Sharia. They’re not sharia. If you want to believe in delusions, then I should start calling my Toyota a BMW. Because apparently the world sees the word “Islam” or “sharia” or “muslim” stamped on an atrocity and they think “Oh that’s Islam, because some jaahil said it was”.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

And since we are believing in delusions, when the weight machine says I weight 130 lbs it actually is saying 110 lbs. And you know how they say a pizza has a gazillion calories? You know what? I’m just gonna scratch that. A slice of pizza has 10 calories. Cuz I said so. And I drive a BMW, not a Toyota, even though the car says Toyota. That’s just a mistake I guess. It’s a BMW. Because we live in a world where if someone defines a word as something, we just accept their definition. So if a mullah dude gets to say his crazy ideas are sharia, then I can just rename stuff in my life too.

I’m not “desi”, I’m “Italian”. In fact, I don’t drive a car, I drive a HORSE. Yep, it’s a black big HORSE. I call it “Jim”.

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Oh and furthermore, if we wanna go after people being killed and abused for being from a certain religion, do you want me to start on the atrocities in Burma, or how about Palestine, or how about Bosnia? How about muslim murders in Gujrat?

So are all Christians, Jews, and Hindus bad people, because of those isolated areas of abuse in the world? Should I encourage my Christian friends to convert out of Christianity because of the abuse and murders that went on in Bosnia? Should I pose those stories to you and use those examples in history to show how you shouldn’t be a Christian?

Hitting home yet?

There are fundamentalists in all religions and all those people are equally guilty. No not all Muslims, Christians or Hindus are bad. I don’t think Bella would say all Muslims are bad as that would mean saying her family, friends etc are bad which would be very wrong. I think she was criticising people who support this law. No one can say generalise about all Muslims because we all know there are many great Muslims who are upstanding members of their communities. Only a bigot would say that. As someone who is against religion based laws Bella would also be against Christian, Hindu laws and it is likely she is not believing any other religion. As a Pakistani and being on a Pakistani forum she is probably more likely to criticise laws which would affect her personally or which people here would have an opinion on. All of us would be against laws of other religions that could affect us in the West.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

^ Cut the flattery. Thanks.

[IndiGo_Rain]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

Op, I apologize if I have been unjust toward you in my posts. But having pondered over why you’d want the opinion of “guys who always support every shariah rule,” I could only come up with two reasons.

The first possibility is to seek insight or clarification from members who are more knowledgeable about shariah. However, in this case, I think one should say, “I’d like the opinions of those more knowledgeable about shariah” and not “I want the opinion of those who always seem to support every shariah rule” There is a difference between the two. The first sounds like one who is open-minded about learning. The second sounds like someone trying to challenge or prove a point, as though to say, “Let’s see what all you shariah-supporters have to say about this one.” And if one’s intention is to prove a point, then they’re looking for validation of their overall belief about Islam. As said earlier if one manipulates a shariah ruling or incorrectly interprets and applies it, then it’s an injustice. It’s not right to use the injustice to judge the overall shariah and religion and its followers.

[shaasavera]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

^ Cut the flattery. Thanks.

I was just giving what could be Bella’s perspective. That maybe she did not intentionally mean it that way. I did not say anything disrespectful. I agree you seem more knowledgeable and as you say it is not sharia. Perhaps she is not as aware as you.
Why generalising about my background?
So saying something genuine is “flattery crap”. If i find your comments, your blog posts and your views inspiring as I can relate then i can be free to say that. Just because I am an outsider does not make it less valid. You are free to your opinion about me though. You asked questions why she is not criticising all those other things which should be equally criticised and I gave the reason that she is not of those backgrounds so maybe she can not relate.
Ok and that was all I had to say.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@IndiGo_Rain

Jab GS k Muslims ka itna hi pata hai, to pooch kyun rahi ho? Is it with the hope that they will respond to your question in the affirmative and thus confirm your general poor opinion of Islam and the Muslims on here? It would be one thing if you were only criticizing this particular ruling, but you find shariah in its entirety barbaric. Based on this one ruling, one which you have not bothered to research thoroughly, you want Muslims to speak out against shariah, to abandon it? What is so tolerant about that, hmm? If it’s lack of tolerance you’re fighting against, then urging people to go against their faith is not indicative of tolerance on your end either.

I am asking those supporters of sharia to explain how they justify this murder. i m not going to sugar coat anything. you dont view this murder as barbaric? if you do, then please condemn this barbaric law.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@teggy

OP: I just want to apologize if any of what I said was hurtful. I assure you the intention was not to cause any animosity. I am guilty of just becoming so focused on the point I’m trying to drive home that I may lose remembrance of lessons of Islam which teaches us to be kind to everyone alike, and always say a good word. My hope is that you will see my replies as an attempt to satisfy your initial question, and If I have fallen short in doing so, then It’s because I lack knowledge, and admit my shortcomings.

Please see the responses in their proper context, and I hope they will make sense and address the issue from my limited understanding.

no im not offended or hurt by any of your words, as a matter of fact, im glad that you also disagree about this womans execution as you mentioned previously. my point in posting this was to see how many people would openly condemn this murder and speak against such laws. im glad many people did.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

Oh and furthermore, if we wanna go after people being killed and abused for being from a certain religion, do you want me to start on the atrocities in Burma, or how about Palestine, or how about Bosnia? How about muslim murders in Gujrat?

So are all Christians, Jews, and Hindus bad people, because of those isolated areas of abuse in the world? Should I encourage my Christian friends to convert out of Christianity because of the abuse and murders that went on in Bosnia? Should I pose those stories to you and use those examples in history to show how you shouldn’t be a Christian?

Hitting home yet?

2 wrongs make a right? what is your point? what does palestine have anything to do with this?
if you are concerned about atrocities in other parts of the world, feel free to start a thread about those thing but makes no sense to include it here.
please show me where i said or implied that all muslims are bad people and they need to convert out.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

She’s trying to flame, like most people who convert out of Islam. Sorry, bella, but if you want to convert out of Islam, that’s your choice, and Islam doesn’t entitle anyone to put a death penalty on you or anyone else. Local laws in muslim countries, even if called “sharia”, do not necessarily correspond to Islamic values.

im glad you are against such sharia laws which calls for murdering apostates. no im not trying to ‘flame’ here, just trying to see how many people will condemn such actions.

Being a Pakistani, if you are one, you should know that. Pakistan has a gazillion rules that are supposedly Islamic, heck even the country is CALLED Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Doesn’t mean it’s really and truly Islamic, as we can see all kinds of illegal/immoral / unIslamic activity going on there, even in the name of Islam.

yes i know that very well. whether this law is truly islamic or not, is a whole another debate and not the purpose of this thread. my point is not whether this law is truly islamic or not, but sadly its being enforced and if you dont agree with it, then atleast condemn it.

People need to distinguish what’s really Islam, and what’s being passed off as Islam with a brand name of “sharia” stamped on it.

yes but thats off-topic here. islamic or not, it is happening and what are we going to do about it? the first step would be to speak out against it if you think its wrong.

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

^ Cut the flattery. Thanks.

wow that was very rude of you. so a hindu or indian person cannot voice their opinion here?

[bella88]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@IndiGo_Rain

Op, I apologize if I have been unjust toward you in my posts. But having pondered over why you’d want the opinion of “guys who always support every shariah rule,” I could only come up with two reasons.

The first possibility is to seek insight or clarification from members who are more knowledgeable about shariah. However, in this case, I think one should say, “I’d like the opinions of those more knowledgeable about shariah” and not “I want the opinion of those who always seem to support every shariah rule” There is a difference between the two. The first sounds like one who is open-minded about learning. The second sounds like someone trying to challenge or prove a point, as though to say, “Let’s see what all you shariah-supporters have to say about this one.” And if one’s intention is to prove a point, then they’re looking for validation of their overall belief about Islam. As said earlier if one manipulates a shariah ruling or incorrectly interprets and applies it, then it’s an injustice. It’s not right to use the injustice to judge the overall shariah and religion and its followers.

no need to apologize, and no you have not been unjust. i am not offended by anyones post. perhaps it was my post which offended many people. whether such sharia laws which are followed in sudan are truly islamic or being used out of context is a different story. as i said earlier, i was hoping to see more condemnation for this particular case. i knew when i started this thread that i was going to get criticized and be questioned regarding my ‘motives’ and ‘agenda’ but thats nothing new. anyway, if i have offended anyone, i apologize. perhaps i could have worded differently. my point remains the same. my heart goes out to this woman facing 80 lashes and death penalty for simply marrying a nonmuslim man and apostasy. im deeply upset about that, not about anyone’s post here.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

[quote=“bella88, post:12, topic:312346”]

wow that was very rude of you. so a hindu or indian pers.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@shaasavera

Secure people do not try to preach to others no doubt what you are saying is correct. Perhaps your friend in a misguided way wants you to feel sympathetic for her. I think it’s great that you are maintaining great relations with her despite her provoking actions. Maybe as this a personal issue for Bella and since she is Pakistani and knows similar laws exist in Pakistan she feels emotional about it. No doubt not everyone should be painted with the brush. It could be an oversight on her behalf and like Southie said she maybe just wanted to criticise such laws which put people to death. Death is irreversible and even capital punishment for murderers is being questioned in the West. There are plenty of prosperous Muslim countries which have fair and just laws like Turkey, Albania etc so it should not be seen as a religious issue but one of laws. I’d think there is enough societal stigma against such actions to deter most people from doing things casually.

@bella88

wow that was very rude of you. so a hindu or indian person.

Man , You should not offer legal services to Bella, Let her explain her point of view the way she wants. I know Bella Is trying to Paint Islam in black, as i have read all comments here. She does not know about Pakistan and its laws cz her tone telz she has been living away frm pak, for manay year and also She is converted out of Islam and Pretending to be a pakistani here. I do not agree to what she said here. I am not posting my Comments here cz Hakeem Salman Once Said “When u argue with an ediot/fool, You lose that argument and when u argue with an intelligent Person, You Win it”. I knw story writter of ths thread wil not listen anything. I am aware of such mentality. So i would like to say, Let bella say what she wana say and Do not say anythng on behalf…

[amber19]

Re: Being killed for marrying a christian man and leaving Islam

@PyariCgudia

^ Cut the flattery. Thanks.

What does her religion and nationality have to do with the topic?
I’m Indian too but Muslim. SO what? Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion.