Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
This is a ridiculous statement. You're obviously referring to Sardar Bugti here. If you think he had the people of Balochistan's support you have no clue as to the reality of the Balochistan conflict. Did you know Sardar Bugti had his own political party? Do you know that he won a total of one seat in the National Assembly last time? He did not even have the full support of his own tribe. Do you know that Musharaff's PMLq party was 15 times as popular as Bugti's own party, even though Bugti was a fugitive at this time? The people are Balochistan are not stupid, they can see that Sardarism is bad, and central government control is good. You tell me, is Feudalism good for Pakistan?
Bugti was nothing more than a terrorist and mafia thug/traitor. Sabotaging pipelines when he wasnt paid on time and then attacking people at his own whim. A sort of childish warlord that belied his years. Even when he was killed, his own guards were laying down their weapons and deserting him. I suspect they even probably tipped off the Army where he was. He was nothing more than a traitor to Pakistan who refused to allow development of his own territory in order to hold support of a few militants in the region.
On US fighters planes, I havent known of them in the area, but even so, Musharraf's strategy has worked (of keeping the Americans out of Pakistan). If Musharraf has to occasionally act on intelligence, as the price to pay for not having a bunch of hoodulum soldiers on Pakistani territory, then it's a price that is worth paying. Is this so difficult to see?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
And this is the central issue that some people seem to miss. Musharraf has to act on intelligence otherwise the Americans will. If you ask me, I would prefer Paki troops in Pakistan to be searching my house there, rather than American troops, judging by what's happened in the past for sure.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Try Gwadar for one. I can give you a list of developments and pictures if you like which the sardars were previously holding back. It's you that needs to get out of lala land and face the reality on the ground.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I agree with you when you say that sardars were holding back a few things but is it the only case??.
sometimes things on the papers look so good and attractive while the facts are so different. You can not only blame tribes for issues. Do you know the red tape issues there. so should we kill everybody then.
How many plans we had for Balochistan overall - a few. How many were implemented - hardly any (and the reason wsn't the tribes only, the reason was our so-called officials, bribes, all those nasty things that people face in daily lives in other parts of the country too. The difference is that people from big cities are more informative and educated so they know how to make space for themselves.
People from tribal areas are more sensitive towards a lot of things. You need to be more strategic with them. When was the last time, this present govt (or any previous govts) made plans for balochistan development. They supply gas to the whole country and yet aren't able to use it. Would you blame them?? Ofcourse they were not supposed to burn the stuff etc but they are uneducated. How many times, govts have tried to provide them education. Just making excuses that sardar don't let them, doesn't work. Did Musharraf ever had detailed discussions with them??.
And whats the difference between govt and sardars. They burned pipelines and govt killed them labeling them as terrorists. do you really believe that all those victoms were involved in some sort of terrorism
But no matter what they are - right or wrong. Killing them is barbaric. I would appreciate if you guys post some articles/news/speeches from Musharaf where I can see some evidence. I really wanna know, if they were terrorists. Where is the court ruling??
Not only victoms' families but we all as Pakistanis need to know the solid proof, the solid evidence. We need to know why people from our country were killed. We need to see the names of those killed and the real crime list with each & every name. If govt provides it, my partial vote is with Musharraf. Only partial because even in this case, there was no sitting, no judge ruling - nothing.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
If this happened in a vacuum then perhaps we should all be suprised and shocked. But just recently there was an agreement between the tribals and the central government. You would imagine that the discussions to reach that agreement would be frank, open and lengthy. Would you imagine that during some of those discussions that some bright lines might have been informally drawn? Like, if-there-are-any-Al-Qaedda-in-the-hood-we-will-bomb-the-crap-out-of-you? I can imagine that the "agreement" had some "clauses" that were not reduced to writing, and that the tribal folk never intended to abide by a single word in the "agreement". A few missles signalled that the agreement sham was apparent. There is probably a lot going on here that we do not know.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
For a list of Balochistan projects which have been implemented see here.
Sanitation, irrigation, medical schools projects
This is not true. Balochi people can use it. They do use it. They have an excess of energy which is redistributed to the other provinces to meet also their energy needs. This is normal for any country. Say a big find in the North Sea for oil is found in Scottish waters that can provide for the whole of Scotland. Should the whole of Scotland be given oil, and then England have to buy the remaining oil off the Scots? This would be a ridiculous system in any part of the world, so why pick out Pakistan for this?
The sardars do not want development. They claim that development will lead to more deprivation of Balochi people (try that for logic), since they will be exploited more.
Simple. If they dont attack government facilities like pipelines (which cause lots of expensive damage and halt supply of energy), they wont be attacked. This is like saying a criminal kicks you, and you kick them back.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I am against any violent action by the state towards its citizens. However, in this case, the tribals violated a treaty with the federal govt. Musharraf gave them a chance and they rejected it. So be it.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
If this happened in a vacuum then perhaps we should all be suprised and shocked. But just recently there was an agreement between the tribals and the central government. You would imagine that the discussions to reach that agreement would be frank, open and lengthy. Would you imagine that during some of those discussions that some bright lines might have been informally drawn? Like, if-there-are-any-Al-Qaedda-in-the-hood-we-will-bomb-the-crap-out-of-you? I can imagine that the "agreement" had some "clauses" that were not reduced to writing, and that the tribal folk never intended to abide by a single word in the "agreement". A few missles signalled that the agreement sham was apparent. There is probably a lot going on here that we do not know.
^^ No peace agreement had been signed with Bajaur elders, so no action was taken by them.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
No ahmedjee bhaijaan. the point is that these ppl are inviting their own shamat due to their bullheadedness, and if ther eis going to be shamat I would the rather it be their own only than karachi or islamabad attacked or economic sanctions against Pakistan. These ppl are not just dangerous to US, but to Pakistanitself.
resorting to violence is last resort, as I have stated before, Pakistan govt tried to reach deals with teh tribals ..against the pressure that they had from nato and US, but it did not work. the tribals nevr had any intentions of honoring the deals. as a matter of fact the elders who had agreed to deals were killed by this new breed of radical tribals, in bed with foriegn extrmists and their pals.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Fraudia Bhai, even if I convince myself that the negotiations have failed, I still don't believe it justifies bombing a whole crowd. Worse comes to worse, does Pakistan Army not have any snipers?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
exactly, a deal was not signed but discussions were held and maybe they were not going anywhere, maybe the tribals were stalling or maybe the deal was being refused. what do people want govt to do then, keep at negotiation table for months while foriegn extremisst have a free reign and can use Pakistan as a logistics and planning base for their activities?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
ahmedjee, My classmates have served in areas close to that region, and we know how difficult the terrain is, what you are suggesting is that govt gets ppl in have them hide and take the ppl out one by one as they come out of the place. snipers are good for a handful of people, any more and you can not do it, I have never heard of a simultaneous snipering of a few dozen ppl.
You get a few down, the other start attacking your positions, use others as human shields and what nots.
Again.. do computer programmers, data base administrators, business analysts and college students really know more than military tacticians who probably went over possible scenarios before agreeing on this approach?