Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
^ yep lets wait for couple of days to see if really terrorists were killed, or if it really was a 'strike worth it'.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
sure, so we are not debating tactics anymore but the mission itself. Fine that is fair.
press and other expecting total disclosure should not expect it, who knows if army has planted moles in the tribals areas who are providing info, and a complete disclosure coud endanger these ppl as well. But there will probably be some information provided.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I didn't agree to the "tactic", I only said that time will tell if the action was "worth it"
[quote]
press and other expecting total disclosure should not expect it, who knows if army has planted moles in the tribals areas who are providing info, and a complete disclosure coud endanger these ppl as well. But there will probably be some information provided.
[/quote]
There should be possibility of complete media exposure to the site, that in no way will expose the planted moles. Let the world see what the "militants" were really doing, how many and who died. But my guess is that its not going to happen otherwise it will uncover all the lies.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I have to say that I am really really surprised by the responses posted here. Both against and in favour.
Anyway it has been established that the bombers weren't from the puppet Pak army. Take a guess.
However, I have to say that random bombing is plain wrong, surely those people do have militant tendenceis, but to go and kill just isn't an option. You have to establish the truth first.
Whatever happened to arresting those people first and then prosecute them if there were enough evidence? The terrain might be difficult but surely its not difficult for a trained army to deal with the difficult elements?
A lot of you are really good with words, no doubt, and what beautiful crap u guys produce, no doubt about that too. (going back in hybernation)
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
MYwish nay farmaya
*However, I have to say that random bombing is plain wrong, surely those people do have militant tendenceis, but to go and kill just isn't an option. You have to establish the truth first. *
1- this was a precision stike on one building, random bombing would be littering the entire region with bombs.
2-as far as establish the truth. They acted on evidence and on proof of certain ppl being there. Again, Pakistan has been very successful in arresting extremists and forieign miltants who had hidden in cities. This woukd indicate that the intelligence about ppl and their movments is good.
*Whatever happened to arresting those people first and then prosecute them if there were enough evidence? The terrain might be difficult but surely its not difficult for a trained army to deal with the difficult elements? *
1- sounds good for sound bites and looks good on paper. The only scenario that this would have been would have to have the following aspects
a- surprise element, can not march a company in the area and not alert the pers that something is up
b- the willingness of the perps t be caugt alive, and not die fighting and become some sort of heroes
c- the guarantee that these ppl would not use others are shields, and thus the chances of any innocents dying is less
d- there are no other ppl outside the building who will not attack the military when it has the bldg under seige.
what beautiful crap u guys produce, no doubt about that too. (going back in hybernation)
beautiful, and logical crap :)
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Fraudia Bhaijaan, the argument that just because I am not there on the ground wearing a halmet, so I shouldn't question that 'tactics' and just trust the government in good faith is the same BS white house puts out every freakin' day. It is the weakest of all arguments for any actions that any government takes.
In all the public documents and the dicussions I have read, not a single argument has been made in favour of the indiscriminatory bombing as the only option left, other than the argument to teach "them" a lesson, which in my opinion is no better than the argument put forward by people who perform passion killing and neighbourhood drive by shooting.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
These are reports from locals, and opposition party groups. Politicians, some of them, know no limits to decency, they will manipulate situations for their own benefit and popularity. What was shown were satellite images that militant activity was going on at the school.
The local television station AAJ reported that satellite images showed militant activity going on within the madrasa and that it was used as a staging point for attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
*“Militants were given training to prepare explosives, and the madrasa was used to provide ideological motivation,” the report said. It was not clear from local news reports when any Qaeda leader had last visited the madrasa. *
*http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/01/news/pakistan.php *
There were also no eyewitnesses to what went on. They just heard this or that. My question is why do you believe the eyewitnesses so readily. I dont believe either side until I know the facts. You have already jumped onto the bandwagon.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Chances are that some locals (siding with opposition party) made the claims… remember report pre-Iraq invasion about WMDs? remember people selling each other out for $5000?
This whole “satellite imag…” is nothing more than Mushy claiming it, is it? Can you please post the picture instead of articles after articles suggesting that the madrassa was (allegedly) militant training camp… lets see pictures rather than words, as they say picture is worth …?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
mushy is showing his bagarity. This is what i can say about mushy nothing more than this.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
contarary to the extremist blind support musharraf is enjoying, non racist human rights groups are urging for a probe
Inquiry urged into Pakistan raid
Human Rights Watch has urged Pakistan to allow an independent inquiry into Monday’s bombing of an Islamic school in which 80 people were killed.
The New York-based organisation said the death toll was so high that the government had to provide a “credible” justification for the raid.
The authorities say the school near the Afghan border was used by militants.
Survivors and locals insist it had no link with al-Qaeda or the Taleban, and that only students and teachers died.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) called on the government to allow independent investigators into the area, in the tribal district of Bajaur.
“The onus is on the Pakistani government to provide a credible account of the legitimacy of the attack resulting in the deaths of so many,” HRW’s Ali Dayan Hasan said in New York.
The Pakistani government says the school was used by militants as a training camp and that no civilians died in the attack, carried out by helicopters.
However the claim was challenged by two of the three who survived the attack.
Said Wali, 18, told the BBC the school had no links with militants and that some students who died were young as seven.
“We were busy preparing for morning prayers when the place was bombed,” he said.
Burnt face
Mr Wali also rejected government allegations that the head of the school, Maulvi Liaqat, had links with militants.
“He was a strict man who used to eulogise the Taleban but nothing more than that,” he said.
Another survivor, Abu Bakar, 22, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that there was no militant training at the school.
The third survivor, Noor Rehman, 16, cannot speak because his face is badly burnt.
Since the raid thousands of local people have taken part in protests against Islamabad’s alliance with the US.
There were also demonstrations in Peshawar and other cities.
The attack came as the Pakistani government was due to sign a peace deal with pro-Taleban militants in the Bajaur area, which now appears to have failed.
Sympathy for the Taleban and al-Qaeda among tribesmen in Bajaur is believed to translate into active support, the BBC’s Barbara Plett in Islamabad says.
Pakistan has deployed nearly 80,000 troops along the border. They are there to hunt militants who sought refuge after the ousting of the Taleban in Afghanistan in 2001
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Aj sahib, you can question the tactics all you want, but I am merely pointing out that the tacticians probably looked at all options available to them or were practical before settling on the one that did the job in the best way possible, balancing all sorts of factors at the same time. so that is the part of the tactics questions
The second question is about whether there were perps in the bldg, and I ut forth the fact that thru intelligence the govt has been able to capture ppl from the cities, and it was thru intelligence that another dude was blown up just a few months ago in another tribal area. so for me the track record of targeted attacks and captures is pretty good.
this was not indiscriminatory bombing, this was precision strikes on one bldg, I have not heard anything about anything else in the area being impacted.
Why would you want the givt to disclose all optons considered and what weaknesses they thought were in each option. Why provide foriegn fighters and their buddies more info than they have?
If you were making the decision, you knew you havd a bunch of militants meeting there and planning something, and lest ssuppose you knew that the place may have some innocent bystanders there too. what would you have done? I have posted some potential options and their pros and cons already based on my limited knowledge. Maybe there are things you know that I dont, and the planners of this attack did not.
How do you launch an operation in a hostile area by moving enough troops in there to be effective, while keeping it completely off the radar, guarantee the safety of any innocent ppl in the bldg, and capture the perps so u can bring them for trial. go ahead…try
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
This whole "satellite imag..." is nothing more than Mushy claiming it, is it? Can you please post the picture instead of articles after articles suggesting that the madrassa was (allegedly) militant training camp.... lets see pictures rather than words, as they say picture is worth ....?
The TV channel is reporting to have seen it, not mush.
*The local television station AAJ reported that satellite images showed militant activity going on within the madrasa and that it was used as a staging point for attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan. *
If you want to see a picture of it, then you might as well break into the ministry of armed forces and look for top secret data. If they need to release such data, they will do so in time probably.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Are you talking about the same ministry which had full evidence of Iraq's WMDs?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I didnt know Pakistan launched an invasion of Iraq.
The simple fact is noone knows who they were inside the school for sure.
Pakistan Army wouldnt attack them for fun or to please the Americans. The only question on who carried out the attack. I think again noone knows for sure. If I had to say who was more likely to be telling the truth, I would say the Army was, because I just dont know why they would deliberately blow up a school full of innocents..it would make absolutely no sense, and provoke a reaction from some quarters like that of yourself. To say the Americans did it, would deflect anger onto the Americans, away from the Pakistani government, so from the government's point of view, it would be better to have said the Americans did it. Though they claimed it for themselves, which suggests that it was an internal plan. And if it was, then they would have only acted on good evidence, not flimsy evidence like you're making out (without there being any proof that it was flimsy).
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Farudia Bhaijaan, .......................................................(edit)
Anyway the chance of using those people using anyone as shields is/was quite nil what with the army's strategy.
I don't know why you like being so sarcastic, or argue for the sake of argiung only. Honestly you sound like a bored housewife. Perhaps the only thing u can stand is your own Farman's. I do pity you.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I would like to ask a question to all:
If tribal people from Pakistan are involved in armed interference in Afghanistan, where they are hitting American and NATO forces, what Pakistan should do, as there are three options (Pakistan is adopting option two)?
** Option one:** Tell Americans and NATO countries that Pakistan can do nothing to stop them so they (America and NATO) do whatever they like in tribal areas to stop that, that includes crossing border and bombing in Pakistan tribal areas openly and regularly, as many time as they like using whatever type of bombs they like. They can come over the border to kill anyone they like, while Pakistan would stand still.
** Option two:** Tell Americans and NATO countries that Pakistan would prefer to act using Pakistani forces within Pakistani borders to disarm al-qaida and stop infiltration of Pakistanis (Taliban) into Afghanistan (that what Pakistan is doing).
** Option three:** Or let tribal do what they are doing (let them cross border and have their game in Afghanistan) and in process, get prepared to repel American and NATO attack on Pakistan tribal areas (without caring of Pakistan objection), so that American and NATO confronting Pakistan forces, attacks Pakistan and put sanction on Pakistan. In effect, it means, starting a war with America and NATO.
I believe option three would be suicide and anyone opting for option three should tell why Pakistan risk 160 million Pakistanis for Afghanistan and some retarded in Tribal areas who want to fight (If they want to fight, its best that they leave Pakistan and stay in Afghanistan)?
Please read my post for complete detail and full explanation: #76](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4525883&postcount=76)
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
The simple fact is noone knows who they were inside the school for sure.
Do you think our intelligence ministry has access to satellite imagery by themselves? The simple "noone knows" could've been made a clear fact had media been allowed there, but I guess it takes sometime and effort to cover up the mess.
[quote]
Pakistan Army wouldnt attack them for fun or to please the Americans. The only question on who carried out the attack. I think again noone knows for sure.
[/quote]
Pakistani govt is taking the "credit" for 2 reasons, 1st to dispel the notion that Pakistani government is still in "control" and not US, 2nd to claim worldwide that we are actively supporting war against terror.
[quote]
If I had to say who was more likely to be telling the truth, I would say the Army was, because I just dont know why they would deliberately blow up a school full of innocents..it would make absolutely no sense, and provoke a reaction from some quarters like that of yourself.
[/quote]
They didn't blow it themselves IMO. If they really did it then it is far more criminal then I think they are now.
[quote]
To say the Americans did it, would deflect anger onto the Americans, away from the Pakistani government, so from the government's point of view, it would be better to have said the Americans did it. Though they claimed it for themselves, which suggests that it was an internal plan. And if it was, then they would have only acted on good evidence, not flimsy evidence like you're making out (without there being any proof that it was flimsy).
[/quote]
Read my comments above why Pak govt is taking the "credit". Casualty could've been minimal had they launched the missile on the residency of those suspects, mind you the main suspect still fled.
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I think the best option is a hybrid version of Option 1 and 2.
In which Pakistani Army gets supplied with advanced NATO military equipment, trained into how to use it and then uses those weaponry to disarm the tribal areas and re-asert control
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
I believe Pakistan is following option one (maybe 20 percent) and option two (80 percent) but I believe that it is politically wrong to say that (or even admit that). Actually that is the reason that at times, Pakistan is claiming all actions as of theirs, regardless of where it comes from. Sometime it is causing problems, as usually, American and NATO actions are reckless. What you think?
Re: Barbaric Mushy raids school, killing dozens of innocents.
Sharaabi be careful when you talk about Allah's punishment. It is only Allah who knows who is getting punishment. It is considered Shirk to try to show that one knows what Allah wanted to do.
If those people were really that pious and religious, Allah's help must have been with them as we have seen in the Gazwat. Anyways! Do you really believe that it is about religion? Go to Waziristan and see for yourself. Islam is only a part of their culture. That culture openly protects many values which are strictly forbidden in Islam. I don't need to elaborate on those. This is not based on hearsay. I have seen these things myself. At the moment what is going on is a power struggle. There is a huge monetary benefit that is being reaped by protecting these Al-Qaida elements. You think these people are getting protected because they believe in Islam. Come out of it. Even if a non-Muslim will go to these areas and ask for protection, he will be given protection.
You think disintegration and disruption of country will help the Islamic cause. THink again. If these pseudo-religious fanatics will come into power, it will be civil war in Pakistan where one religious sect will be fighting another. This is what is happening in Iraq as well. This we have seen in Afghanistan as well.