Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Our teachers are those who earn respect and our obedience through their deeds and by the logic of and veracity of their teachings.
Seeing that you speak on behalf of yourself and MuNiYa ... Please name just one of your teachers.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Seeing that you speak on behalf of yourself and MuNiYa ... Please name just one of your teachers.
I dont speak for Muniya, this is an open forum, so your conversation is open to all participants.
Honestly, im not looking for one particular teacher... I look to ideas, to philosophies, not to individuals. Everyone in that respect is a teacher. My 2 year old is a teacher in her own waY.
If any of our esteemed scholars can explain to me why someone who isnt a Muslim cannot visit the Kabbah, and their argument is sound and logical, then I will admit that today that scholar has taught me something. Barring that, the only thing these people "teach" you, is that having a beard and a title doesnt necessarily make you worthy of being listened too..
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
I dont speak for Muniya, this is an open forum, so your conversation is open to all participants.
Honestly, im not looking for one particular teacher... I look to ideas, to philosophies, not to individuals. Everyone in that respect is a teacher. My 2 year old is a teacher in her own waY.
If any of our esteemed scholars can explain to me why someone who isnt a Muslim cannot visit the Kabbah, and their argument is sound and logical, then I will admit that today that scholar has taught me something. Barring that, the only thing these people "teach" you, is that having a beard and a title doesnt necessarily make you worthy of being listened too..
Which of your entourage of teachers Med911 says "no" to the ban of non-Muslims in Makkah and why?
Simple question ...
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
:D ab yeh to aap ki miana rawi hy If men were wearing such things, I have feeling people would consider them more then naked.
BTW another way to look at it is, put 2 travel package, 1-700$ all inclusive to bahamas, chadi driking.. food sun... 2-1500$ none of the above, + full clothing.
I have feeling no gori would want to go. So now if no one wants to go how is this an issue??? Its not like people are demonstrating over, not being able to wearing hijab and burqa, while not misbehaving, while not drinking during all their vacation trip.
lol. A chadi is rather comfortable, that goes without saying.
Whether they want to come or not is irrelevant, its should they be able IF they want to. Hypothetically, lets assume someone does want to, then what.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Which of your entourage of teachers Med911 says "no" to the ban of non-Muslims in Makkah and why? Simple question ...
That would be the teacher in myself, who does not see the logic or the justice in a ban on allowing Non-Muslims entry into the confines of the Kabba, informed by interaction with diverse segments of a multi-cultural, multi-faith society.
The Hajj is a deeply moving experience.. And if our intention is bring people into the folds of Islam, why deny them such an experience? Wouldnt that make MORE people want to be Muslim? Arent you killing your own brand by making such rules?
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
That would be the teacher in myself,
Thank you for your honesty ... enough said ...
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Sorry MuNiYa ... These pictures were not posted in justification for the banning of non-Muslims from Makkah, they were posted as evidence that others are doing the same.
And it appears you don't follow them because they are not our teachers, however, when it comes to our teachers ... Do you accept their verdicts? Apparently not if you believe this verdict is wrong.
Tit for tat is never the answer.
I do follow my leaders - very much so. I'm from the Ummah of the Prophet who converted people to Islam by his good nature and even better manners. Not by alienating them. Ask yourself, if Prophet was alive today, would he reconsider. At the time the rule was made, he was fighting for power over that land, now that land is Muslim.
Anyway - I know you won't consider an alternate opinion so I'm not going to argue.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Thank you for your honesty ... enough said ...
A little less condescending please.
We all believe that Islam is a LOGICAL and rational faith.
We all have the capacity for logical and rational thought. These are god given qualities.
Islam then should by definition conform to parameters of logic and reason.
When one of great scholors comes along and says something which is illogical and unreasonable, then why should it be considered even remotely Islamic?
Its when you surrender you mind to the will of "teachers" that you as a Muslim have failed. How are you any different at that point from the blind fanatics of Taliban and DAESH? Or the crazy mobs that murder Christian or Ahmadis in Pakistan?
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
A little less condescending please.
We all believe that Islam is a LOGICAL and rational faith.
We all have the capacity for logical and rational thought. These are god given qualities.
Islam then should by definition conform to parameters of logic and reason.
When one of great scholors comes along and says something which is illogical and unreasonable, then why should it be considered even remotely Islamic?
Its when you surrender you mind to the will of "teachers" that you as a Muslim have failed. How are you any different at that point from the blind fanatics of Taliban and DAESH? Or the crazy mobs that murder Christian or Ahmadis in Pakistan?
The correct adab is to find out what the dynamics were when this prohbition was made in the first place and see if still applies.
I for one would not like to have non-Muslims there such that prayer is called and all people there are in a state of purity and in prayer. What would they be there for? I would not like them to carry in to that area their idols and perform their acts of worship in accordance with their polytheistic ways in sacred ground. I would want the peace of mind that I can be in that area and be as a pilgrim.
And if you let them in to the Makkah territory, would you be able to police them from entering the ka'bah area? If you let them roam around the mataf whilst we are doing tawaf which is busy enough anyway, should they be given priority above the pilgrim for the same space?
Could it possible to escort 10 non-Muslims a day in a tour and keep them monitored might be a plausible solution. If they open the doors without control you will get a lot of non-Muslims trying to come in and they would necessarily be competing for space.
Not to mention the increase in security needs.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
The correct adab is to find out what the dynamics were when this prohbition was made in the first place and see if still applies.
I for one would not like to have non-Muslims there such that prayer is called and all people there are in a state of purity and in prayer. What would they be there for? I would not like them to carry in to that area their idols and perform their acts of worship in accordance with their polytheistic ways in sacred ground. I would want the peace of mind that I can be in that area and be as a pilgrim.
And if you let them in to the Makkah territory, would you be able to police them from entering the ka'bah area? If you let them roam around the mataf whilst we are doing tawaf which is busy enough anyway, should they be given priority above the pilgrim for the same space?
Could it possible to escort 10 non-Muslims a day in a tour and keep them monitored might be a plausible solution. If they open the doors without control you will get a lot of non-Muslims trying to come in and they would necessarily be competing for space.
Not to mention the increase in security needs.
Who said anything about allowing everyone in all at once? i doubt people would flock to the place even if they did, but controlled entry is not unreasonable.
And lets be real here. When you pray with all those other people, you assume a lot of their state of "purity."
And I dont think anyone is coming to the Mecca to worship shiva or Buddah. And even if they were doing a little prayer to their own deity, how does that diminish your observance? As long as they arent disturbing you, what difference does it make to you?
Well it may be an inconvenience in some ways im sure, but when has that been an excuse to exclude people!?!? You wouldnt have a problem with Non-Muslims visiting your home or your local mosque. In fact, when ever Non-Muslims ask to visit Mosques, most people go out of their way to make them welcome, even if its an inconvenience. Of course you have certain rules that the visitor agrees to abide by in advance, such as not entering the prayer hall with shoes etc. But those are things we acknowledge whenever we are visitors to someone elses home or place of worship. When I visited the St Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan, all they ask is that you remove you hat if your wearing one out of respect...
And i dont think the cost of extra security is going to bankrupt the Saudis... If they can bankroll the decadent princes of theirs, im sure they can afford a little more security for groups of Non Muslims visiting mecca... Isnt the potential for inspiring Non Muslims to accept Islam worth that inconvenience?
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
This issue was discussed in a gora forum and they had some european forumers bring in examples of some mount and other areas in europe where a woman wouldn’t be allowed. Btw, they were non-muslims.
All the masjids are open, so I don’t think it is unreasonable to have muslim-only policy for Mecca. We still can’t get enough space for the all the muslims to get in for hajj and we are going to allow all the willy nillys? Sorry, but I rather have the saudis spend money on the welfare of the hajis than some drunkard. 50](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=50) you are on your own ! 
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Im sorry but thats ignorant. Non-Muslim equates to “drunkard,” in as much as Muslim equates to “terrorist”… I would venture to guess that Foreign non Muslim vistors to Mecca are LESS likely to be drunk then some of the Muslims who happen to arrive there. I recall a family friend who had worked as an electrician in Saudi Arabia, said he would go to the homes of Arabs and regularly find bottle of alcohol…
Regulations in terms of how many people may come, and when, goes without saying.
The question is whether Non muslims should be let in at all… And again, im certain the Saudis can afford security for Non Muslim guests in Mecca, but God forbid one of the Sheiks should ever have to compromise between buying a Ferrari or a Lamborghini.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Im sorry but thats ignorant. Non-Muslim equates to “drunkard,” in as much as Muslim equates to “terrorist”… I would venture to guess that Foreign non Muslim vistors to Mecca are LESS likely to be drunk then some of the Muslims who happen to arrive there. I recall a family friend who had worked as an electrician in Saudi Arabia, said he would go to the homes of Arabs and regularly find bottle of alcohol…
Regulations in terms of how many people may come, and when, goes without saying.
The question is whether Non muslims should be let in at all… And again, im certain the Saudis can afford security for Non Muslim guests in Mecca, but God forbid one of the Sheiks should ever have to compromise between buying a Ferrari or a Lamborghini.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Who said anything about allowing everyone in all at once? i doubt people would flock to the place even if they did, but controlled entry is not unreasonable.
And lets be real here. When you pray with all those other people, you assume a lot of their state of "purity." And I dont think anyone is coming to the Mecca to worship shiva or Buddah. And even if they were doing a little prayer to their own deity, how does that diminish your observance? As long as they arent disturbing you, what difference does it make to you?
Well it may be an inconvenience in some ways im sure, but when has that been an excuse to exclude people!?!? You wouldnt have a problem with Non-Muslims visiting your home or your local mosque. In fact, when ever Non-Muslims ask to visit Mosques, most people go out of their way to make them welcome, even if its an inconvenience. Of course you have certain rules that the visitor agrees to abide by in advance, such as not entering the prayer hall with shoes etc. But those are things we acknowledge whenever we are visitors to someone elses home or place of worship. When I visited the St Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan, all they ask is that you remove you hat if your wearing one out of respect...
And i dont think the cost of extra security is going to bankrupt the Saudis... If they can bankroll the decadent princes of theirs, im sure they can afford a little more security for groups of Non Muslims visiting mecca... Isnt the potential for inspiring Non Muslims to accept Islam worth that inconvenience?
Peace Med911
I have given you rational reasons that you said were non-existent for the prohibition of non-Muslims in the meeqat. Now you have your opinion, but unfortunately not everyone has appointed your rationale as their teacher. But you should acknowledge and appreciate that they do not do things out of personal zidd ... they have a process of arriving at rulings.
If you differ do so with evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah with adab.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
what is the rationale behind banning the whole city of Makkah to non-muslims? restrictions to masjid-al-haram is understandable and could be substantiated from the holy Quran but why whole city? honestly, I didn't know that before this discussion started.
3 pages of discussion and no one explained it.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Hi, Med 911
Do you believe that ALLAH did not know that by visiting the blessed place, the open and unabashed idolatry cleanse them selves. Allah knows all.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
It looks you are really KAKABALLI---------
Can you tell us the difference between Non Muslim and idolators. Do you say that Non muslims can go to Macca and idolators can not?
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
what is the rationale behind banning the whole city of Makkah to non-muslims? .
Because idiot Saudis can
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
Hi, Med 911 Do you believe that ALLAH did not know that by visiting the blessed place, the open and unabashed idolatry cleanse them selves. Allah knows all.
Do you believe that everything mentioned in the Koran is meant to be applicable for ever and for all time? Clearly that cant be the case, since the rational behind the original injunction no longer apply.
Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah
what is the rationale behind banning the whole city of Makkah to non-muslims? restrictions to masjid-al-haram is understandable and could be substantiated from the holy Quran but why whole city? honestly, I didn't know that before this discussion started. 3 pages of discussion and no one explained it.
maybe don't look answer in religion.
Perhaps this is called keeping things simple. Muslims are not likely to do thing which need not to be done there, out of respect.
To non muslims you could not teach to mimic such behaviour which muslims show out of respect.
Hence a lazy way to keep things simple.
What is the problem there ??