Background of pakhtun - split from thread

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

I hate the word Pathan because it is a mispronunciation, the proper word is Pashtun, way back when Indian Desi people (Hindko, Punjabi, Hindi, Bengali, Gujji etc.) came in contact with Pashtuns they couldn't pronounce "Pashtun" so they mispronounced it as “Pathan”, from then one it has stuck with us and even foreigners such as the British who ruled India used it instead of Pashtun because it’s the term they first heard from Indians, to us Pathan means nothing, please call us Pashtun instead.

I've read up on Gandhara, it was a northwest Indian state in the olden days and it comprised the present day regions of western Pakistan and eastern Afghanistan, it's people spoke languages which are today classified as dialects of Punjabi, such as Hindko, Potohari and Siraiki, we Pashtuns (or Pathans as you say) came on the scene slightly later.

Hindko people are not Pashtun (or Pathan as you like to call them), they are Hindko which is a separate ethnic group. There are however some Hindko speaking tribes who are of Pashtun origin, they don't speak Pashto anymore because their forefathers intermarried with Hindko women and thus lost their tongue but they continue to share many cultural similarities with us except for language, in most cultures lineage is patrilineal (except Jewish and Native American) so some of them still call themselves Pathan, Pashtun or Afghan, but I wouldn't say they are Pashtun because language is the only real hallmark of an ethnicity, it's the biggest cultural asset of a nation, once you stop speaking a language as your mother tongue you seize to be a part of the related ethnicity, yeah if those tribes readopt Pashto then they will become Pashtuns. There are tribes of Pashtun origin in Afghanistan too who are in a similar situation and have lost their tongue due to interaction with other ethnic groups and now speak Dari or Hazarajati (nothing to do with your region, they are an ethnic group which is racially an amalgam of Mongol and Aryan and live in northern Afghanistan, rather sexy mite I add).

There are also Hindko origin people who are not of Pashtun descent but they have adopted Pashto and refer to themselves as Pashtun because of living in Pashtun dominated areas, these are your shopkeepers and musicians, these calling themselves Pashtun is fine because like I said they now speak Pashto so they are Pashtun, same is the case with people of Punjabi origin (both Muslim and Sikh) who settled in Peshawar and now speak Pashto, they too are Pashtun.

There are other Hindko and Punjabi people who call themselves Pathan just because they live in NWFP, thes are types who are neither of Pashtun descent nor speak Pashto and these calling themselves Pashtun or Pathan is stupid, usually their forefathers were wanna be’s and baselessly passed down the slogan “we are Pathan” from generation to generation which is rather silly because they should be content with who they really are.

Most Hindko people are not of Pashtun descent, they are a separate ethnic group, merely being from a certain region does not make you a part of any ethnicity. The original Hindko people are Desi and are more closely related to Punjabis, Sindhis and North Indians in language, culture, race and heritage than to their Pashtun neighbours (just look at the Awans in Peshawar).

In short you belong to a certain ethnic group based on the language you speak as your mother tongue and not on racial lineage or living in a certain geographical location.

I consider Hindko to be a type of Punjabi, I can tell there are some differences but they are only enough to set Hindko as a separate dialect not separate language, my Mirpuri friends all call themselves Punjabi and Hindko sounds closer to regular Punjabi than Mirpuri does, in the Chakwal region of Punjab they speak exactly like Hindko but they consider themselves proud “mountain Punjabis”, there is no hard or fast rule for being Punjabi, Punjabi tribes have quite diverse racial backgrounds, cover vast landscapes and speak many dialects. Hindko on it’s own can’t be much of an identity, fair enough Punjabi, Sindhi, Hindi/Urdu and other related languages evolved from Hindko and it’s their original base and it was the language of a grand ancient kingdom/state called Gandhara but other than that it doesn’t even have any folklore, poetry or novels to it’s credit, there are some in Punjabi which only need a few words changing and it becomes Hindko but then that just proves it’s all one language.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

With all due respect brother, I disagree with those who argue that.

In many cases our "Pakhtoonwali" or "code of life" is responsible for the big mess our people are in today, there are many good things about it but we don't have monopoly over them and I've seen many Punjabis and Arabs practice them too but it doesn't make them Pakhtoon just good human beings, likewise a Pakhtun who doesn't follow the so called "Pakhtunwali" doesn't seize to be a Pakhtun because it's an ethnic identity.

Pashtun is an ethnicity, language or nation, let's leave it at that, the code thing is sometimes too mediaeval for today and it's narrow minded to live by it religiously, our people are better off without it, our people need to change their mentality because sometimes it’s right to go against Pukhtu, it doesn’t mean your not proud of your identity anymore just you’re using your brain instead of doing what society expects of you, I always argue with my elders about these things.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

zakk,

this is why i denounced my pushtun/pathan (whatever you want to call it) lineage. I can trace my family back 25 generations (TWENTY FIVE). I can site to you the pages of the "Hayat e Afghani" in which the names of our ancestors are mentioned and how the distribution of land took place.

Based on what you are saying a person's ethnicity is based upon which language they speak. So basically if an Afridi living in Karachi speaks Urdu and not Pushto then he is of what ethnicity? 'URDU-SPEAKING?'

Let me tell you what defines ethnicity: its your heritage and your lineage. American Indians living in the States are still American Indians even if they dont speak tribal Navajo or Seminole etc languages. I do not agree with you that people who come and open shop in Peshawar and learn Pushto for the sake of good business are now Pushtoons. They are still Punjabis. I know a local band in Peshawar who are from Mirpur but they now sing Pushto folk songs - so they are now Pushtoon? I also speak Spanish. Does that also make me Hispanic? The only reason I speak Pushto is to communicate with my inlaws. So what does mean then?

Today's generation of Pushto speaking PATHANS is incredibly arrogant. Not at all what they used to be. They are dead set on calling us HAZARAWAL to which we reply 'ok.' We know what we are, we know where we came from, we know how our land is divided, we dont need a stamp of approval. Whats the downside? The power being produced in Tarbela - HAZARA. Why is it that Hazarwal are looked down upon but Pathans take claim for Tarbela. Is it not in our HAZARA division? The whole country's power is provided from Tarbela yet the main switches are in Lahore. Why doesnt all that load-shedding occur in Lahore? Why in Hazara and Peshawar? Because the Punjabis will always have us fighting each other. You tell us we're outsiders and dont belong with the rest of the province - we say ok, I guess we're with Punjab then. Who wins? Punjab. Who loses out? NWFP. Why? Because we are all stupid Pushtoons at heart who are too proud to back down from a fight. Even if we are fighting our own brothers.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

sorry zakk, my message was towards Farukh Khan. I apologize

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

On one hand you talk of disowning your Pashtun "heritage" and then on the other you're upset because we wont consider you Pashtun based on lineage alone.

If someone considers Pashto their mother tongue then they are a Pashtun, regardless of what their ancestors were a million years ago and regardless of whether they live in Afghanistan, NWFP, Tribal Areas, Attock or Mianwali.

Heritage and lineage are a weak basis for ethnic identity, going by your logic we are all African because all humanbeings originated in Africa. Besides we have so many foreparents, just look at how many greatgrandparents you had (8?), then how many greatgrandparents did they have? Get my point? Are you going to trace your lineage through all of them? It's silly.

Race isn't an issue either, only obese, hairy and ugly old farts like the Stormfront-White type people give it any importance, today ethnicities/nations are multi-racial, because well in reality we are all one race.

I have friends in Britain who are of Indian origin but they have never spoke Hindi and only speak English, they are more British than those who came here before them (white skinned people) and that's what I think of them as, British not Indian. Then there's Pashtuns who still speak Pashto as their mother tongue despite being born here and being able to speak fine English so I consider them Pashtun.

We Pashtuns have assimilated many people into our ethnic fold, some have been tribes of Turkish origin, some Arab, some Persian, some Baloch and now Punjabi and all are proud Pashtuns and a part of our community.

Ethnicity is like religion, it can change down the generations.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

We all have so many foreparents, just look at how many greatgrandparents you had (8?) then how many greatgrandparents did they have? Get my point? Are you going to trace your lineage through all of them? It's silly.

YES, thats my point, I AM going to trace my lineage through all of them. Can't you also argue that we are all Arabs because the first people on Earth spoke Arabic? And we can all say we originated from them right? Yes, we've changed our language, but no, we haven't changed our ethnicity. Those Indians are still Indians whether they like it or not. You can call them British Indians but you can't call them Brits. If that were the case wouldn't we call all black people Africans? Why do we call them African Americans. Your heritage stays a part of your ethnicity even if you abandoned the geographical area/language/culture a long time ago.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Pathan is the urdu word for Pashtun. All pashtuns I have met use this word to describe themselves when talking in Urdu.

I didn't realize that there was this mass hysteria over this word.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Bro chill out, I don’t doubt that your lineage might go back to a Pashtun tribe but that isn’t enough to make you a Pashtun by modern definitions of ethnicity. You’re language is your culture and being a Hindko/Punjabi is no less worthy of respect than being a Pashtun.

The Afridi tribe living in Karachi or the Yusufzai clans in Dehli are Hindi and Urdu now, only their ancestors were Pashtun.

I use to know a girl of Cherokee (Native American) origin and she didn’t identify with her grandparents background because it wasn’t her culture.

Westernised Pakistanis and Indians in this country are Brits, Condoleezza Rice is American not South African.

I don’t like racial/ethnic-origin classifications on forms and stuff they’re unnecessary.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

[quote]
after that i denounced my pathan heritage and called myself HAZARAWAL and i am damn proud of it.
[/quote]

Hazara is a region not an ethnic identity, there are Pashto speakers living in Hazara too and they are Pashtun.

Same way some Chachi's (Chach: region across the river in Attock, Punjab) are Pashtun whilst others are Punjabi.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Majority of us don't like it.

Use Pashtun, Pushtun, Pakhtun or Pukhtun depending on the dialect (some dialects use "kh" others "sh", some use "pesh" others "zabar").

Standard would be Pashtun, I speak the northern dialect but prefer this one.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

this is called racism: defining someone over his/her color of skin:rolleyes:

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Exactly :k:

Race has nothing to do with ethnicity, nationality, language or culture. Race is irrelevant in civilised society, “racial purity” is a backward concept.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Yeah, I’ll stick with Pathan.

Re: Rahmaan Baba..Poet of the Pukhtuns

Aren’t the hazarawal / hindkos one of the main reasons that NWFP hasn’t be renamed Pakhtunkhwa? :smiley:

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

when and where did i mention skin color and its relation to ethnicity??????

i thought they were called african americans because their ancestors CAME FROM AFRICA.

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

By the way, I never said hindko or punjabi was inferior to pushto. did i? i thought i said we like our area and our language. people like to label us this and that. you yourself said that we are punjabis. no, we're not. but we're not pathans either. thats what the problem is. pathans call us punjabis and punjabis call us pathans and we get rather fed up of it seeing as we're quite an accomplished group of people. its not like we WANT to be any part of any of those 2 groups, they voluntarily denounce us without recognizing that we never asked for membership. my ancestors are pushtoon, you're right, but i dont consider myself pathan, despite a lot of others considering us pathan. the reason why is not because of my language, no. the reason is because i simply dont like pathan or punjabi culture. that you can call racism.

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

Many hindkos / hazara region have culture which is like punjabis!

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

sure we do. we are in such close proximity to punjab its only natural. there are also a lot of hawarwal who have culture like pathans. but that doesnt make us punjabi nor pathan, and i wish they would both stop thinking that we want to be included in either group. we're very narcissistic and love ourselves.

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

chalo racism par bhee ek kisaa sunatain hain:

in peshawar university when they receive an application from a punjabi the administration office says 'mara, da kho punjabiyan day' and they rip it up and throw it away.

i've seen it happen twice.

Re: Background of pakhtun - split from thread

I haven't heard hindkos promote their language and culture (maybe it is PTV which only believes in four nations or failure of hazarawals to promote their culture or both).

I heard that the recent earthquake killed a lot of hazarawalas giving a big blow to the number of people who speak it but then there is also chance of revival as attention is on earthquake affected areas as much as it wouldn't be normally!