ATHEISTS .... explain

[desidudecool]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

^big bang may have created galaxies and stars that we know of ,but it did'nt create a universe which starts from point A and ends at point B, universe has no boundaries.furthermore theres absolutely no mention of dark matter and dark energy in any holy book,do you know that dark matter and dark energy is 95% of whats out there?,stars,galaxies in other words all the visible matter that Allah claims to have created is only 5%.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Again an analogy. But then there is air outside the ballon, outside the balloon there is a room, there is a whole universe encompassing this balloon, and this universe itself is like a balloon (as you said), you get the drift right??

oh come on
that's why it's just an analogy

i had read the articles about the expanding universe, but none if it really made sense until i saw the balloon analogy
and that is how scientists know that the universe is expanding because the distance between two objects in the universe seems to be increasing, just like two points on a balloon

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

That is why analogies/parallels cannot be used to prove/disprove something. Analogies are good to explain or provide a perspective, but it's not the same thing, that's the biggest pitfall of analogies being used for a proof. I can very easily give you a counter analogy which shows the importance of believing your senses. Why will god give you senses if they are not supposed to be believed.

I never spoke about belief at all, i spoke about imagination. Since you have spoken about belief

Let me go ahead further,

There are many things which we do not see or realize, but we have the
conviction that they exist as if they were things which we could see and realize. We believe that there are countries called** Fiji and Guyana** although we have never visited or seen them before.

We believe that Alexander the Great had conquered Persia although we
did not participate in the wars of Alexander. If every one of us contemplates in himself, you will discover that your belief in things which you have not seen.

Why did you believe in the existence of all these things although you did not realize them with your senses?

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

oh come on that's why it's just an analogy

i had read the articles about the expanding universe, but none if it really made sense until i saw the balloon analogy and that is how scientists know that the universe is expanding because the distance between two objects in the universe seems to be increasing, just like two points on a balloon

Ok, in that case look at desidudecool's post above about the dark matter.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

^big bang may have created galaxies and stars that we know of ,but it did'nt create a universe which starts from point A and ends at point B, universe has no boundaries.furthermore theres absolutely no mention of dark matter and dark energy in any holy book,do you know that dark matter and dark energy is 95% of whats out there?,stars,galaxies in other words all the visible matter that Allah claims to have created is only 5%.

i cannot prove that there's a beginning and end to the universe, and you can't prove that it is infinite
and what does dark matter have to do with anything, Surah Baqarah Ayah 2 says This is the Book in which there is no doubt, GUIDANCE for the Muttaqoon.

Quran is a Book of Guidance, not a book of science. And even science doesn't know what dark matter is, so will you reject science on that basis?

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Are you saying if I start trusting someone I should always trust him? And if not I have double standards. I do not think you can explain your statment in any other way.

Again, I will refer you to the Seerah (Biography) of Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam. Abu Sufyan, one of the biggest enemies of Islam who later became Muslim, was happy when he found out that his daughter married Muhammad. The Makkans would trust Muhammad in everything, except when it came to Islam, because they didn't want to let go of what their forefathers believed in, they didn't want to let go of their traditions and beliefs.

[desidudecool]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

science now has prove that there is dark matter out there,it just does'nt fully understand it.It is illogical to think that there can be a begining and an end to the universe therefore it is infinite.My house may be 1000 sq yards,how big is the universe?where does it start where does it end?.it just does'nt start anywhere and does'nt end anywhere.

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

Waiting for reply in #243

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@yo_wasim

I never spoke about belief at all, i spoke about imagination. Since you have spoken about belief

Let me go ahead further,

There are many things which we do not see or realize, but we have the conviction that they exist as if they were things which we could see and realize. We believe that there are countries called** Fiji and Guyana** although we have never visited or seen them before.

We believe that Alexander the Great had conquered Persia although we did not participate in the wars of Alexander. If every one of us contemplates in himself, you will discover that your belief in things which you have not seen.

Why did you believe in the existence of all these things although you did not realize them with your senses?

That's a cunning and rather below the belt attempt to prove your point but actually you are disproving yourself.

I believe in the existence of Fiji and Guyana because I or authorities I trust have proof (approved by my senses) of their existence, and the same for Alexander.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

i cannot prove that there's a beginning and end to the universe, and you can't prove that it is infinite and what does dark matter have to do with anything, Surah Baqarah Ayah 2 says This is the Book in which there is no doubt, GUIDANCE for the Muttaqoon.

Quran is a Book of Guidance, not a book of science. And even science doesn't know what dark matter is, so will you reject science on that basis?

sherafghan, being a theist you should have answers for the questions.

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

science now has prove that there is dark matter out there,it just does'nt fully understand it.It is illogical to think that there can be a begining and an end to the universe therefore it is infinite.My house may be 1000 sq yards,how big is the universe?where does it start where does it end?.it just does'nt start anywhere and does'nt end anywhere.

If you can believe that Universe doesnt start and end anywhere. Why cant the ones who believe in God, also have the same logic. Coz God is omniscient, and ofcourse is not relative to time.

Well w

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

science now has prove that there is dark matter out there,it just does'nt fully understand it.It is illogical to think that there can be a begining and an end to the universe therefore it is infinite.My house may be 1000 sq yards,how big is the universe?where does it start where does it end?.it just does'nt start anywhere and does'nt end anywhere.

If you can believe that Universe doesnt start and end anywhere. Why cant the ones who believe in God, also have the same logic. Coz God is omniscient, and ofcourse is not relative to time.

Well waiting for an answer in #243

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

science now has prove that there is dark matter out there,it just does'nt fully understand it.It is illogical to think that there can be a begining and an end to the universe therefore it is infinite.My house may be 1000 sq yards,how big is the universe?where does it start where does it end?.it just does'nt start anywhere and does'nt end anywhere.

again science has absolutely no idea what dark matter is and what is it's purpose, etc.
the only reason scientists put out this label of dark matter was because certain numbers didn't add up (if i am not mistaken, it's related to density)
and you didn't answer my question, will you reject science because it does not know what is dark matter?
obviously you won't, then this can't be your basis for rejecting the Quran

and your explanation about the universe is not a proof, you are just saying that one case can't be true so therefore it must be the other
this is not a proof
there isn't enough scientific information to conclude that the universe is finite or infinite

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

That's a cunning and rather below the belt attempt to prove your point but actually you are disproving yourself.

I believe in the existence of Fiji and Guyana exist because I or authorities I trust have proof (approved by my senses) of their existence, and the same for Alexander.

So you agree, conviction can be attained through realization and observation, it can be also attained from the report of the ones whom we think are truthful.

Let me go ahead,

What is the extent of knowledge that can be attained by the senses and can senses realize every created thing?.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

sherafghan, being a theist you should have answers for the questions.

Islam does not claim to provide answers for all of man's questions.
And there is no religion that can provide all answers.
I mean 1 + 1 = 2, is not in the Quran so is that going to be your basis for rejecting the Quran?

[Hahahaha]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@yo_wasim

At midday, in the desert and a man sees a pond of water at a remote distance, but when he reaches it, he will discover that is a dust because what he saw was a mirage.

If someone was at an evening party in which people talked about Jinn and ghosts, on his way home, because the road was dark and empty and if he was scared and had an active imagination, he may have thought he saw a Jinn or a ghost, but in fact it was nothing other than his imagination.

Therefore, the senses can make mistakes and be deceived, they can imagine.

I want the answer for the above based question, btw let us not consider God for the above argument.

So our senses cant be trusted? Is that what you are implying? If thats the case the I am arguing for a lost cause.

[Hahahaha]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

That's the difference between a muslim and a kafir. The kuffar of Makkah trusted him so much that they used to call him Al Ameen (Trustworthy), but when it came down to beliefs (Islam) they would call him a liar, madman, poet, etc. They had double standards, and people today still have those same double standards. Interestingly, the Quran addresses each one of those accusations.

how would you react if someone whom you trusted the most ..for instance someone from your family.. came to you and said he was sent here by God... I would consider that person crazy.. anybody would.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@yo_wasim

So you agree, conviction can be attained through realization and observation, it can be also attained from the report of the ones whom we think are truthful.

Let me go ahead,

What is the extent of knowledge that can be attained by the senses and can senses realize every created thing?.

Before I answer you on this, let me ask you this.
Is God a country like Fiji/Guyana or a person like Alexander?? If not , then your proof holds no water.
I hope you get my point here because unless you clarify that I cannot agree to your proof.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

Islam does not claim to provide answers for all of man's questions. And there is no religion that can provide all answers. I mean 1 + 1 = 2, is not in the Quran so is that going to be your basis for rejecting the Quran?

Science (with Mathematics) does give me an answer to that question.

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Before I answer you on this, let me ask you this. Is God a country like Fiji/Guyana or a person like Alexander?? If not , then your proof holds no water. I hope you get my point here because unless you clarify that I cannot agree to your proof.

I started my argument with my post #235, and please read the last sentence.

What is the extent of knowledge that can be attained by the senses and can senses realize every created thing?.