ATHEISTS .... explain

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

that doesn't make sense, because then you can ask that question over and over again infinitely ie, who created god, and then who created god's creator, and who created god's creator's creator, etc., etc.

the idea of infinity makes sense theoretically but it doesn't make sense in practice

Exactly! But why stop at God, using your logic each object in this universe is God, something which I can try to believe in.

You are stopping at one point (God) in your exploration of the universe so that you have a clear understanding (however wrong), but the atheists dont.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Exactly! But why stop at God, using your logic each object in this universe is God, something which I can try to believe in.

You are stopping at one point (God) in your exploration of the universe so that you have a clear understanding (however wrong), but the atheists dont.

I don't like to get into this whole philosophical debate about God, but I'll give it a try anyways.

If you look around you, everything is dependent on something. Literally everything is dependent on something.
So, there must be something out there which is independent.
Because you cannot have an infinite chain of dependencies, it doesn't make sense.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@muali

Wat it has got to do with being an atheist n blessings of God...... *And why in the world i have to compare my self to those people who doesnt have the basic needs of life or watever,they are not looking at me to blame their fate then why i have to look at them to be thankful to god that i could have been one of them cuz i'm not complaining to God by looking some one better off than me.And howcome ur so sure about the beggers or the needy people or the homeless ppl that they still have good faith,no body knows cuz i know people who doesnt have faith but are scared to express it. *

Muali, I agree with your line of thinking not just wrt to Islam but other religions too.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

I don't like to get into this whole philosophical debate about God, but I'll give it a try anyways.

If you look around you, everything is dependent on something. Literally everything is dependent on something. So, there must be something out there which is independent. Because you cannot have an infinite chain of dependencies, it doesn't make sense.

Try to think out of the box and think about a circular dependency. I am not saying that this is what is happening, but will not be surprised if that's the case.

Cant it be the case that the existence of your so called God depends on the belief of its followers and in a way God exists because we think he/she exists.

Think of the circle, think of "shoonya", think of infiniti, sorry infinity :).

[Hahahaha]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

I don't like to get into this whole philosophical debate about God, but I'll give it a try anyways.

If you look around you, everything is dependent on something. Literally everything is dependent on something. So, there must be something out there which is independent. Because you cannot have an infinite chain of dependencies, it doesn't make sense.

Speaking of sense.. God doesnt make any sense.. if we cant sense him! Wow we believe in a senseless God! He who cant be tasted.. smelt...touched.. seen or felt. How rational!:D

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Try to think out of the box and think about a circular dependency. I am not saying that this is what is happening, but will not be surprised if that's the case.

Cant it be the case that the existence of your so called God depends on the belief of its followers and in a way God exists because we think he/she exists.

Think of the circle, think of "shoonya", think of infiniti, sorry infinity :).

well, like i said infinity makes sense on a piece of paper but it is not practical
and you misunderstood what i said
we are dependent on the air we breathe, food we eat, etc. and most of that stuff is dependent on sunlight, and the sun is dependent on the fuel that is within it, etc., etc.

if there was no sun, then we probably wouldn't be able to survive on this planet and this is not a circular dependency

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@Hahahaha

Speaking of sense.. God doesnt make any sense.. if we cant sense him! Wow we believe in a senseless God! He who cant be tasted.. smelt...touched.. seen or felt. How rational!:D

With respect to Islam, Surah Baqarah Ayah 1 - 3 says Alif Lam Meem. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, guidance for the Muttaqeen. Those who believe in the UNSEEN ...

It doesn't matter to me if God is senseless, because according to the Book that I follow he cannot be sensed.

And you are right, that there are a lot of things in Islam that are NOT explainable. So, first you would have to believe in God and establish that Islam is the religion of God and then everything else that follows, whether it makes sense or not, must be the Truth.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

well, like i said infinity makes sense on a piece of paper but it is not practical and you misunderstood what i said we are dependent on the air we breathe, food we eat, etc. and most of that stuff is dependent on sunlight, and the sun is dependent on the fuel that is within it, etc., etc.

if there was no sun, then we probably wouldn't be able to survive on this planet and this is not a circular dependency

But according to your theory, God is the single end point of this chain, meaning sun is dependent on God and I am trying to make God a link of this chain, not the end point.

An atheist is one who questions a lot, he/she will hardly come with any answers, so I might be not the one to answer your questions but yeah I can still counter question you on your questions.

An atheist is an atheist (not just related to religion) because he is not satisfied with the explanation. Once he has the answers, he's not an atheist anymore.

IMO, every atheist will like to become a theist, that is his objective, it's just that he's not satisfied with the answers he's been offered.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

But according to your theory, God is the single end point of this chain, meaning sun is dependent on God and I am trying to make God a link of this chain, not the end point.

An atheist is one who questions a lot, he/she will hardly come with any answers, so I might be not the one to answer your questions but yeah I can still counter question you on your questions.

An atheist is an atheist (not just related to religion) because he is not satisfied with the explanation. Once he has the answers, he's not an atheist anymore.

IMO, every atheist will like to become a theist, that is his objective, it's just that he's not satisfied with the answers he's been offered.

Well yes, I believe in God and therefore God must be the end point of this dependency. Obviously there is no universal proof that proves or disproves the existence of God. You can only rationalize it.
But the signs exist in the universe to support the existence of God. In the end it's up to you whether you want to accept those signs or not, otherwise you can call it a random occurence. If you do think about it, then you would automatically conclude that there has to be a God.

It's kind of interesting that the word Kafir in arabic literally means someone who hides something, ie. a farmer in arabic is called a Kafir because he hides seeds in the ground. In the Islamic sense the word means someone who hides the truth, ie. someone who denies the signs.

[Hahahaha]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

With respect to Islam, Surah Baqarah Ayah 1 - 3 says Alif Lam Meem. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, guidance for the Muttaqeen. Those who believe in the UNSEEN ...

It doesn't matter to me if God is senseless, because according to the Book that I follow he cannot be sensed.

And you are right, that there are a lot of things in Islam that are NOT explainable. So, first you would have to believe in God and establish that Islam is the religion of God and then everything else that follows, whether it makes sense or not, must be the Truth.

So basicaly believe in something of which the strongest point is the weakest link!

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@Hahahaha

So basicaly believe in something of which the strongest point is the weakest link!

Like I said, first establish that God exists and Islam is from Him and then everything that follows must be the Truth whether it makes sense or not.

Maybe you have not studied the Seerah of Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam. The Quraish accused him of being a poet, soothsayer, madman, possessed, etc., etc. And even they admitted that it doesn't make sense to label Muhammad as such.
When Muhammad stood on the mountain and asked the people that if I were to warn you of an enemy approaching from the other side of the mountain, would you believe me and everyone said yes. And then he told them about Islam, and most or all of them turned away.

[Hahahaha]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

Like I said, first establish that God exists and Islam is from Him and then everything that follows must be the Truth whether it makes sense or not.

Maybe you have not studied the Seerah of Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam. The Quraish accused him of being a poet, soothsayer, madman, possessed, etc., etc. And even they admitted that it doesn't make sense to label Muhammad as such. When Muhammad stood on the mountain and asked the people that if I were to warn you of an enemy approaching from the other side of the mountain, would you believe me and everyone said yes. And then he told them about Islam, and most or all of them turned away.

I never questioned his credibility and honesty as long as it made sense.

[desidudecool]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@infiniti

Try to think out of the box and think about a circular dependency. I am not saying that this is what is happening, but will not be surprised if that's the case.

Cant it be the case that the existence of your so called God depends on the belief of its followers and in a way God exists because we think he/she exists.

Think of the circle, think of "shoonya", think of infiniti, sorry infinity :).

^yes the concept of infinity alone should disprove the existense of God ..god is not the master of the universe,nobody is and nobody can be because universe is infinite with no end and no begining,God did'nt create it because it was always there and it will always be there,and who or what created God even if we do assume that he does exist?get the picture?it is logically impossible to assume that there can be a creator of everything in this world or universe because everything means there is a limit to whats out there, there is'nt any limit to what out there in the universe, its infinite!.Its a concept that has boggled my mind since i was 10, but it is the truth.

[yo_wasim]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@Hahahaha

Speaking of sense.. God doesnt make any sense.. if we cant sense him! Wow we believe in a senseless God! He who cant be tasted.. smelt...touched.. seen or felt. How rational!:D

At midday, in the desert and a man sees a pond of water at a remote distance, but when he reaches it, he will discover that is a dust because what he saw was a mirage.

If someone was at an evening party in which people talked about Jinn and ghosts, on his way home, because the road was dark and empty and if he was scared and had an active imagination, he may have thought he saw a Jinn or a ghost, but in fact it was nothing other than his imagination.

Therefore, the senses can make mistakes and be deceived, they can imagine.

I want the answer for the above based question, btw let us not consider God for the above argument.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@Hahahaha

I never questioned his credibility and honesty as long as it made sense.

That's the difference between a muslim and a kafir. The kuffar of Makkah trusted him so much that they used to call him Al Ameen (Trustworthy), but when it came down to beliefs (Islam) they would call him a liar, madman, poet, etc. They had double standards, and people today still have those same double standards. Interestingly, the Quran addresses each one of those accusations.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

^yes the concept of infinity alone should disprove the existense of God ..god is not the master of the universe,nobody is and nobody can be because universe is infinite with no end and no begining,God did'nt create it because it was always there and it will always be there,and who or what created God even if we do assume that he does exist?get the picture?it is logically impossible to assume that there can be a creator of everything in this world or universe because everything means there is a limit to whats out there, there is'nt any limit to what out there in the universe, its infinite!.Its a concept that has boggled my mind since i was 10, but it is the truth.

Exactly my thoughts. Nicely put.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@yo_wasim

At midday, in the desert and a man sees a pond of water at a remote distance, but when he reaches it, he will discover that is a dust because what he saw was a mirage.

If someone was at an evening party in which people talked about Jinn and ghosts, on his way home, because the road was dark and empty and if he was scared and had an active imagination, he may have thought he saw a Jinn or a ghost, but in fact it was nothing other than his imagination.

Therefore, the senses can make mistakes and be deceived, they can imagine.

I want the answer for the above based question, btw let us not consider God for the above argument.

That is why analogies/parallels cannot be used to prove/disprove something. Analogies are good to explain or provide a perspective, but it's not the same thing, that's the biggest pitfall of analogies being used for a proof. I can very easily give you a counter analogy which shows the importance of believing your senses. Why will god give you senses if they are not supposed to be believed.

[system]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@desidudecool

^yes the concept of infinity alone should disprove the existense of God ..god is not the master of the universe,nobody is and nobody can be because universe is infinite with no end and no begining,God did'nt create it because it was always there and it will always be there,and who or what created God even if we do assume that he does exist?get the picture?it is logically impossible to assume that there can be a creator of everything in this world or universe because everything means there is a limit to whats out there, there is'nt any limit to what out there in the universe, its infinite!.Its a concept that has boggled my mind since i was 10, but it is the truth.

I don't know, maybe you haven't done your research properly but when I studied astronomy, I learned about something called the Big Bang Theory. That explained how the universe was created.
Again going back to my astronomy course, the universe is somewhat finite and expanding at the same time. The professor explained it by using a balloon, and how a balloon is blown with air it expands. So, the distance between each point on the balloon increases. This is similar to what is being observed in the universe.

And the universe will also cease to exist at some point in time, I think scientists have agreed to this as well (not 100% sure though).
By the way something similar to the Big Bang Theory is explained in the Quran, and the Quran also talks about an expanding universe.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

That's the difference between a muslim and a kafir. The kuffar of Makkah trusted him so much that they used to call him Al Ameen (Trustworthy), but when it came down to beliefs (Islam) they would call him a liar, madman, poet, etc. They had double standards, and people today still have those same double standards. Interestingly, the Quran addresses each one of those accusations.

Are you saying if I start trusting someone I should always trust him? And if not I have double standards. I do not think you can explain your statment in any other way.

[infiniti]

Re: ATHEISTS .... explain

@sherafghan

I don't know, maybe you haven't done your research properly but when I studied astronomy, I learned about something called the Big Bang Theory. That explained how the universe was created. Again going back to my astronomy course, the universe is somewhat finite and expanding at the same time. The professor explained it by using a balloon, and how a balloon is blown with air it expands. So, the distance between each point on the balloon increases. This is similar to what is being observed in the universe.

Again an analogy. But then there is air outside the ballon, outside the balloon there is a room, there is a whole universe encompassing this balloon, and this universe itself is like a balloon (as you said), you get the drift right??