Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

[teggy]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

@Mr.Popat

Allah has given us the glad tiding that anyone who follows Allah's commandments and follow the footsteps of Muhammad PBUH will be given 4 rewards. Out of which one is prophethood. This belief that I mentioned above is not something we made out of a thin air. This very belief is a belief of every single Muslim, with the exception that the prophet they're waiting will not be 'born' but rather He will be coming from heaven , namely Isa(as). All the other points I mentioned above are the ones Muslims believe as well, but in the personality of Isa(as) only.

How does having same belief and yet waiting for the person to appear can make one Muslim, and one who accept a prophet according to Quran and ahadith (believing Isa(as) to be dead and Allah raising prophet within ummah) is declared non-muslim is beyond my understanding.

Now, talk about the truthfulness of someone claiming to prophet. I suppose just one reason should be enough for now in favor of someone's truthfulness. It is Allah's help to that person. How is it possible that a person who claims to be a prophet gets to live some 23 years after his claim.. with Allah continuously supporting His cause. Continuously sending revelations to Him, continuously helping him. Allah says in Quran and addresses Muhammad PBUH that if even Muhammad PBUH had lied on Allah's name, Allah would have taken care of Him. We see people claiming anything in history, and we also know their end result. This is the way of Allah. But a truthful person continue to get enormous help from Allah Almighty and His jammat is being spread in every corner of the Earth. Is it nauzubillah ok to say that Allah forgot His promise that he will not let an impostor succeed ?

I guess the post will get longer if I type more. I'll just suffice with this much for now. Peace.

Where's the proof of Allah promising Prophethood to anyone other than Prophets themselves? Being a Momin bears a lot of blessings, including being rewarded to Jannat-ul-Firdaus (inshaAllah). Never have I read, heard, or seen anyone saying "Pray hard enough and you will become a Prophet". Astagfirullah. Allah indeed hears everyone's prayers, and duaas are answered. Allah's acceptance of my duaa for a Saliheen progeny is a favor unto me. My prayers being answered is of immense benefit to my faith because it makes me love Allah more, and be more submissive and obidient to Him, who alone is worthy of worship.

Where does it say that Allah does not let Zalimeen live even a moment longer after they have done Zulm? If that was the case, every false prophet would die a horrific death instantly. How long did Rashid Khalifa remain alive after his claiming to be a Prophet?

To offer the length of someone's lifespan as proof is really clutching at the straws (broken ones at that!). If that was the case the best of humanity would live long lives, and those of evil nature would die the moment they uttered falsehood. That is not it though.

Allah wishes to reward to punish everyone according to a Hikmah that we cannot comprehend. The rest of what you said is "more of the same", and does not contain anything substantial, unfortunately. I'm sorry.

Also, Allah has promised to protect Islam and preserve Quran. Show me from a source we can all agree on that states Dajjal will not have followers, or a jamah. Not true! Infact even Dajjals have followers. Does not make them righteous, neither does it mean that they won't be accounted for their actions. This again is where I stop lest I go beyond what Allah has permitted. Judgement of everyone's actions is with Allah alone.

I am hopeful that you will furnish proofs for your claims above, so we can move beyond this moot point. You have done justice to your point of view by presenting it again and again. Lets have some proof that back up what you have stated from commonly agreeable sources.

The topic is vast, and has other dimensions that need to be discussed. Dajjal/False claimants of prophethood maybe a part of it, definitely not the whole scheme of things.

If you cannot back up what you have said with source/proof that is acceptable to everyone/most of us, please refrain from derailing the discussion further. Your contribution has been valuable thus far. But we need to move on to other aspects of Muslims vs. Bani Israeel as far as direct/indirect relation is concerned.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Coming back to the topic. This era had been prophesied by Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH. There had to come a time when we could easily see Muslim ummah behaving like jews. Just like how jews had taken their rabbis as Lord ( accepting anything that they say as permissible and prohibiting anything that they say is prohibited ).. Muslims today are doing the same. They dont question their scholars. Their scholars tell them certain type of people are wajibul qatl, and people blindly start following them. They feed any kind of belief in their minds and they dont have guts to question them. It is why Muhammad PBUH said that their scholars will be the worst creature on the face of this Earth.

Problem is, Muslims have gone far from Islamic teachings and have made up our beliefs without confirming it with Quran and ahadith. The concept of a person killing swines,breaking crosses..then another person known as Imam Mahdi(as) who will lead Muslim army, who will give success to Muslims, who will be a ruler.. a Messiah whose in heaven, not eating and yet alive, will come back on Earth with the support of 2 angels etc have made Islam weak in the eyes of Christianity. We cannot accept anything thats not in conformity with Quran and ahadith. Quran does not approve of anyone living outside of Earth. Ahadith telling about the coming of Messiah is the one who will be born in Muslim Ummah. (Ibn e Maryam name is given to him because of his piousness, as every momin according to Quran is compared with Maryam(as) )

If we keep denying the current situation Muslims are in, we will never be able to reunite. We need to look into our beliefs and think to ourselves if whether or not we are following footsteps of Jews. How does ummah reunite? as Quran says, Allah reunites an ummah by sending a prophet among them. Allah says that you were at the edge of cliff, and he saved you from it..and it was because of the prophet that you became brothers. Opposition is necessary for a truthful jamaat. People who accept the prophet are the righteous ones among the whole ummah.

Peace.

[teggy]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

You have said nothing different, friend. It's recycling the same one-point (of view). :)

I do agree with you in regard to Scholars being source of Fitnah in some cases, and that is certainly true. There are many things that scholars say which only confuse a believer rather than to strengthen Taqwa. This we can certainly agree on.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

No worries – that is your prerogative.

Yes pointing fingers is easy – that’s what you have doing here in each and every post of yours ;)

Take note when you point your finger at others your own 3 fingers are pointing back at you ;).

If you don’t believe me, point a finger away from yourself and watch your 3 fingers pointing back at YOU.

You mean to say that this obscure person 'Ibn e Kabsha' was a forerunner of preaching Islam?????

If one dreams in sleep or drug induced ‘enlightenment’ that in any stretch of imagination Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani resembled the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) even to lowest degree possible – He should tender his apologies. And seek forgiveness from Allah Almighty

This is nothing but Ahmadi/Qadiani speak - completely at variance with Islamic Beliefs.

I believe this is what you do when you dont have any answer. Why was Muhammad PBUH called Ibn e Kabsha ?? Did you give me and answer ? no!
I asked you what you would do if 15 ahadith comes to its fulfillment while 5 does not? what will your stance be? did you give me an answer ? no!
I asked you how you would tell jews that Jesus son of Mary(as) was infact THE Messiah for them who was suppose to bring peace in the world, reunite bani Israel, give back their promised Land ? How would you justify Messiah's truthfulness when you're the one acting like jews yourself. Did you give me an answer ?? NO!

If you dont have answers, stop quoting me and stop wasting your time. Use that time in researching and knowing more about Islam.

Easier to say its Ahmadi speak. Did you answer me on that ? No!

So kindly relax yourself. I'm not here to win a war. Your sharp comments are useless. You dont like my beliefs? fair enough. Justify yours then.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

@obaid1982

Lets see how many of the quranic verses you exempt Issa (as) from:
First you believe that he was raised to heaven and is alive, contradictory to numerous quranic verses describing prophets as “humans”. You have already put Issa in a super-human category by giving him an un-usual lifespan to a human.

It is not only me but Muslims believe that Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was raised alive to Heaven by the WILL of ALLAH ALMIGHTY – not by his own ability – because he is human.

Please don’t limit Allah Almighty’s ability and power – He is not bound by any Laws – Allah Almighty can do what He wills.

@obaid1982

Secondly you believe that he will be exited from heaven and sent to this earth. Clearly Allah has mentioned countless times in Quran as Heaven to be an eternal place. We dont see any example where someone was exited from Heaven.

Indeed Heaven in Eternal place – please show us where do you get this notion Allah Almighty cannot take anybody out of heaven.

It is strange that you don’t believe that Human being can leave Heaven yet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed that red ink fell from Allah Almighty’s pen fell on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani’s and his good friend’s clothes!

Read – Do you believe this to be true and a reality?

Another classical and unmatched Miracle by MGAQ

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: in a vision, I saw God in a visionary expression and I wrote many predictions; then I placed many papers before God, for his signature, so that he may confirm my demands. I saw that God wrote something and without hesitation put His signature in red ink.

At the time of signing he jerked the pen as they do when ink on the nib is excess and they throw it down. I was very sensitive at that time that God was so kind to me that whatever I demanded He put His signature on that without any hesitation. Then I awoke. At the time, (one of my disciples) Mian Abdullah Sinnori was with me in the room rubbing my feet.

In his presence some drops of red ink fell on my clothes and on those of Abdullah. It is strange to note that the time of pen’s jerking and falling of red drops was the same without a slight difference. When the revelation ended, I actually discovered that our clothes were smeared red although we had no dye or anything else of a red colour with us. Abdullah still possesses those smeared clothes. (Haqiqatul Wahi p 255, Taryaqual-Qulub, p 62)

Can you believe it? Allah (swt) signing papers?? Drops of red ink in MGAQ’s dream really materialise!!!

So Allah (swt) must be literally signing the real papers with real red ink and using a real pen.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/562810-details-of-interpreting-verses-from-the-quran-and-obvious-blunders-15.html

@obaid1982

Sure you would like to mention Adam (who was NOT exited from heaven, … can be discussed in another thread). Even if we are to assume that Adam was exited from heaven, it was due to failing a direct order of Allah. And in a way he was punished.

You want to know what Ahmadis/Qadiani’s believe:

Check the post 153 on the following link:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/562810-details-of-interpreting-verses-from-the-quran-and-obvious-blunders-9.html

I have extracted relevant part from there:

So I did some research on the Net and wanted to see how Ahmadis translated the Quran verses and explained them – The results as follows:

I have taken translation of ayahs 7:24 and 7:25 – (By Ahmadi reckoning 7:25 and 7:26 respectively.)

25. God said, “go forth, some of you will be enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time” – Note 961
26. He said therein you shall live and therein you shall die and therefrom shall you be brought forth. – Note 962

Translation and Notes can be viewed at the following link:

The Holy Quran

Notes:

961 The verse shows that Adam was commanded to emigrate from the land of his birth because enmity and hatred had sprung up between different members of his community. This constitutes further evidence of the fact that the “garden” which Adam was commanded to leave was not Paradise. It appears that Adam emigrated from Mesopotamia, the land of his birth, to a neighbouring land. The emigration was perhaps a temporary one and he may have returned to his native land not long after. Indeed the words, provision for a time, contained a veiled hint at them emigration being a temporary one. Adam is warned in this verse to be careful in the future. For it was in his native land he was to live forever.

Above is all pure speculation, nothing definite. Usage of following words/phrases “This constitutes further evidence” “It appears” “was perhaps” “contained a veiled hint” shows pure speculation – nothing backed by ahadith.

962. Taken in general sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to the Heavens in his physical; body. Man must live on earth and die.

“general sense the verse hints” It just hints nothing definite.

It appears that Adam emigrated from Mesopotamia, the land of his birth, to a neighbouring land.

Very interesting notes: read the following Notes 957 957A 958 959 960

The Holy Quran

962. Taken in general sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to the Heavens in his physical; body. Man must live on earth and die.
     See the Ahmadi Tafseer states that “General sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to the Heavens in his physical”

Yes, that is in general sense - but what we have been talking about is not in general sense but in exceptional circumstances when Divine Will is involved -Miracles of Allah - general sense goes out when Divine Will takes over - And Nothing is impossible for Allah (swt)! All He has to say is “BE” and it is DONE. You cannot put limitations on ABILITY of Allah to suit your arguments.

What He wishes - It is DONE.

@obaid1982

Now you are suggesting that Issa (as) is exempt from giving zakat. What would be the point of quranic word of “as long as you shall live”. By saying this you are naozobillah accusing quran of containing an “illogical” and “meaningless” phrase since it didnt even apply to Issa for much of his life (few years in earth and a millenium in heaven).

Muslims don’t accuse ‘quran of containing an “illogical” and “meaningless” phrase’ – According to Quran Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was born to a Virgin, raised up to heavens by Allah Almighty and will die when Allah Almighty Wills it.

Tell me has Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani performed Hajj? Was not Hajj not Fard on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani?

Was he a poor man that he did not have money to travel to and from Al Hijaz and maintain himself over there?

Was he scared of his safety and opposition? Did Allah Almighty not guarantee him safety being His mighty prophet?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

@Mr.Popat

I believe this is what you do when you dont have any answer. Why was Muhammad PBUH called Ibn e Kabsha ?? Did you give me and answer ? no! I asked you what you would do if 15 ahadith comes to its fulfillment while 5 does not? what will your stance be? did you give me an answer ? no! I asked you how you would tell jews that Jesus son of Mary(as) was infact THE Messiah for them who was suppose to bring peace in the world, reunite bani Israel, give back their promised Land ? How would you justify Messiah's truthfulness when you're the one acting like jews yourself. Did you give me an answer ?? NO! If you dont have answers, stop quoting me and stop wasting your time. Use that time in researching and knowing more about Islam. Easier to say its Ahmadi speak. Did you answer me on that ? No! So kindly relax yourself. I'm not here to win a war. Your sharp comments are useless. You dont like my beliefs? fair enough. Justify yours then.

Mr. Popat – I have addressed your queries – may be not to your liking – let the viewers decide it.

Certainly you don’t have to like my answers - Justifying my beliefs? What do you think I have doing so far? :)

[Saif7]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

If somebody already mentioned the hadith i apologize. From Hudhayfah that the Prophet:

The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology.

Then he (the Prophet) was silent.

i belive we are in the time if tyrannical rule as mentioned in hadith because the rulers around today are tyrants just look at them from the Zardaris to the Al Saud to the Syrian monster.

After tyrannical rule the prophet (saw) said their will be return of khulafah unity of the ummah inshallah i hope that day comes soon.

allah swt knows best.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

@teggy

Is today's muslims' dilemma limited to Isa (a.s.)? Or did we go off-topic somewhere?....

yes this thread has gone off-topic. let us get back to the original topic.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

@psyah

… I’m going to show you inshaAllah why the word zakat here cannot take the meaning you are attributing to it.

whatever you want to say, say it clearly so that I know what are you talking about.

[psyah]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

@kchughtai

whatever you want to say, say it clearly so that I know what are you talking about.

Peace kchughtai

I answered your question and you have broken your promise, by not answering my questions ... But ok I will say it clearly.

The zakat here cannot refer to zakat as per shari'ah ... the word enjoined here means that Isa (AS) is compelled by his nature to be praying and alms-giving - So the translation here is to be "naturally inclined to prayer and giving charity" zakat being the word where "one must pay his dues" out of duty - not out of a sense of being extra nice. Plenty of references show he had no place to live and was indeed materially poor and yet his giving of charity was in the form of taking from others and passing it on - Shari'ah would deem Isa (AS) not as a person who would need to pay zakat ... Secondly, read up tasfir ibn kathir and you will see that this ayat is evidence of the qadar of Allah (SWT) - that backs up the claim that this giving of zakat was his compelled nature to do it. If someone is compelled to give in charity is called zakat not sadaqah ... also zakat can be given in a way that it benefits the person on an ongoing basis ... so the original point is still valid ... Attempting to separate zakat from sadaqah in the matter of whether it is jariya or not ... is not correct.

Lastly, which should be a very clear point for you ... Isa (AS) was a new born baby when he (AS) made that statement ... If your idea of him (AS) giving zakat is correct as per the understanding of Shar'ah ... then there is no baby that should owe this amount ... the giving of it has to be by a mature individual. So you need to understand this verse in the sense that he (AS) is saying that he (AS) is made ...

with the propensity to pray (like angels) and to be inherently charitable ... hence his (AS) kindness emphasised to his (AS) mother.

Zakat-ul-fitr is given by the parents on behalf of the baby even the unborn baby ... so long as they are not poor ...

The root word of zakat - is from zka(a) ... it's meaning comes from "giving dues" - purging to clean - purify - to grow and develop, etc so it is not money specific ... there are other ways zakat can be understood...

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

^ Psyah sahib, first of all, you didn’t answer to the point I raised against your flawed reasoning as I point to the phrase “as long as I live”. Now in above fantastic post of yours, I am amazed by the reasoning you have cooked up. I am pretty sure people on your side will also be amazed by your unheard of reasoning.

Ok so your point is that he(as) was compelled by his nature for prayer and zakat and it was not ordained by Allah on him. you have referred to tafsir ibne-kaseer. I thank you for this. when I consulted the same, I found following:

source: Quran, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Arabic English, HTMl, PDF

     **and He has enjoined on me **       (Awsani)       **Salah** and **Zakah**, as long as I live.  
   **       This is similar to the statement of        Allah to Muhammad, 

**** وَاعْبُدْ رَبَّكَ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَكَ الْيَقِينُ **
**And worship your Lord until there comes unto you the certainty (i.e. death). (15:99)Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Qasim reported from Malik bin Anas that he commented on Allah’s statement, ** وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا(and He has enjoined on me (Awsani) Salah and Zakah, as long as I live). He said, "Allah informed him of what would be of his affair until his death. This is the firmest evidence against the people who deny Allah’s preordained decree.‘’

If you read the above passage with honesty then you will see that your assertion that “praying and giving zakat was directed by his own nature and not an order from Allah” is blown to pieces. It is clear that it was ordained by Allah + ponder over the underlined sentence i.e., that would be his state of affairs till death. This is precisely our point.

Again you said the following:

Lastly, which should be a very clear point for you … Isa (AS) was a new born baby when he (AS) made that statement … If your idea of him (AS) giving zakat is correct as per the understanding of Shar’ah … then there is no baby that should owe this amount … the giving of it has to be by a mature individual.

This is a childish comment as you have overlooked the whole context. the verse 19:30 states
19:30 He said: "Verily, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;
An infant is saying that Allah has given him the book or the knowledge of the book and made him a prophet.
again in verse 19:32 states
19:32 "And to be dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblessed.‘’
what is the concept of an infant being dutiful to his mother, an infant being meek and not arrogant.

of course all these statements pertain to his adult life.

kindly ponder over these points

[psyah]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

@kchughtai

^ Psyah sahib, first of all, you didn’t answer to the point I raised against your flawed reasoning as I point to the phrase “as long as I live”. Now in above fantastic post of yours, I am amazed by the reasoning you have cooked up. I am pretty sure people on your side will also be amazed by your unheard of reasoning.

Ok so your point is that he(as) was compelled by his nature for prayer and zakat and it was not ordained by Allah on him. you have referred to tafsir ibne-kaseer. I thank you for this. when I consulted the same, I found following:

source: Quran, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Arabic English, HTMl, PDF

of course all these statements pertain to his adult life.

kindly ponder over these points

Peace kchughtai

I’m only taking from the link YOU have provided:

SubhanAllah you posted it and yet you did not understand what you yourself posted …

*He said, *"Allah informed him of what would be of his affair until his death. This is the firmest evidence against the people who deny Allah’s preordained decree.‘’

This tells us how we should understand the word “enjoined” … It was something that Isa (AS) was compelled to do - it was his (AS)'s nature to do those things … And for more detail regarding the term zakat …

Like Isa (AS) Yahya too was poor and yet he is also said to be giving zakat … Read below and see if I have cooked this up …

Tafsir of Surah Maryam Verse 13

[RIGHT]… [/RIGHT]
[RIGHT]وَزَكَاةً [/RIGHT]
[RIGHT]…[/RIGHT]

and Zakatan, This is related to His statement, وَحَنَانًا (And Hananan).The word Zakah means purity from filth, wickedness and sins. Qatadah said,"The word Zakah means the righteous deed.‘‘Ad-Dahhak and Ibn Jurayj both said,"The righteous deed is the pure (Zakah) deed."Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn Abbas said, وَزَكَاةً (and Zakatan),"This means that he was a blessing.’’

These are from the SAME page that you linked to me … So come on … And I knew you would not answer my question … There is a whole lot more evidence to back up what I am saying … zakat is a general term and not a specific one …

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

@teggy

Where's the proof of Allah promising Prophethood to anyone other than Prophets themselves? Being a Momin bears a lot of blessings, including being rewarded to Jannat-ul-Firdaus (inshaAllah). Never have I read, heard, or seen anyone saying "Pray hard enough and you will become a Prophet". Astagfirullah. Allah indeed hears everyone's prayers, and duaas are answered. Allah's acceptance of my duaa for a Saliheen progeny is a favor unto me. My prayers being answered is of immense benefit to my faith because it makes me love Allah more, and be more submissive and obidient to Him, who alone is worthy of worship.

Where does it say that Allah does not let Zalimeen live even a moment longer after they have done Zulm? If that was the case, every false prophet would die a horrific death instantly. How long did Rashid Khalifa remain alive after his claiming to be a Prophet?

To offer the length of someone's lifespan as proof is really clutching at the straws (broken ones at that!). If that was the case the best of humanity would live long lives, and those of evil nature would die the moment they uttered falsehood. That is not it though.

Allah wishes to reward to punish everyone according to a Hikmah that we cannot comprehend. The rest of what you said is "more of the same", and does not contain anything substantial, unfortunately. I'm sorry.

Also, Allah has promised to protect Islam and preserve Quran. Show me from a source we can all agree on that states Dajjal will not have followers, or a jamah. Not true! Infact even Dajjals have followers. Does not make them righteous, neither does it mean that they won't be accounted for their actions. This again is where I stop lest I go beyond what Allah has permitted. Judgement of everyone's actions is with Allah alone.

I am hopeful that you will furnish proofs for your claims above, so we can move beyond this moot point. You have done justice to your point of view by presenting it again and again. Lets have some proof that back up what you have stated from commonly agreeable sources.

The topic is vast, and has other dimensions that need to be discussed. Dajjal/False claimants of prophethood maybe a part of it, definitely not the whole scheme of things.

If you cannot back up what you have said with source/proof that is acceptable to everyone/most of us, please refrain from derailing the discussion further. Your contribution has been valuable thus far. But we need to move on to other aspects of Muslims vs. Bani Israeel as far as direct/indirect relation is concerned.

Sorry, my posts got a bit off topic.
4:69 : And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.

Prophethood is a blessing of Allah. Allah says only he knows well when He makes a prophet. Yes, true dreams are a portion of prophethood. So is revelations. Allah not only just listen to our prayers, He also speaks to those whom He loves. Allah also says he reveals his secrets to none but messengers that he choose. I would like to explain this with this example. Bill Gates got lots of money. Probably the richest person on Earth now. But that does not mean ordinary people like us dont even have $10.. yeah, if we work hard and hard, we could reach at that level, but just because hes the richest does not mean no one can reach his level or close to him, or earn a decent earning. (dont quote the example as i just made it up for understanding purpose). Likewise, prophethood with shariya has come to an end, but following the footstep of Muhammad PBUH, one can reach the status of prophethood ( like one reach the level of other 3 rewards mentioned in the above verse ). Surely, none can get to the level of Muhammad PBUH, but that doesnt mean no one can become prophet. Muhammad PBUH said that there is no prophet between Me and Him ( the Messiah ). It's rather strange to think that Islam does not allow prophethood anymore, yet we keep believing that Jesus a.s will be a prophet and will follow Islam. A person who have no idea about Islam gets to be a prophet in our Ummah. Ok..

You forgot to mention that I said Allah's continuous help after one has claimed prophethood. Allah continuously supporting His cause, sending revelations after revelations.. and yet Allah does not do anything to stop the progress of his mission ( if it's nauzubillah wrong ). You may not know, but Islamic scholars even today give this proof to Christian priests how if Muhammad PBUH was false (nauzubillah), he wouldnt have lived such many years after he claimed to be a prophet. Scholars also give the reason that had he been a false claimant, His cause would have been destroyed long ago. This is what Allah is saying.. that he will not let any false claimant succeed. He says even if Muhammad PBUH had lied on him, Allah would have dealt with him. How is it that you dont see the continuous progress that Jamaat e ahmadiyya is making ? How is it that Allah treats the true prophet exactly like a false claimant of prophethood.

To simply understand about whose dajjal and whose not.. simply look into the behaviour of Allah with His followers. As simple as that. If He's false, Allah will never let his mission succeed. I dont want to say anything further as its already off topic.

Continue with the thread topic.
Peace.

[teggy]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

we keep believing that Jesus a.s will be a prophet and will follow Islam. A person who have no idea about Islam gets to be a prophet in our Ummah. Ok..

The message of Muhammad (s.a.w.) is the same message as those of previous prophets. They all professed the worship of One God without joining any partners with Him. So the point about Isa (a.s.) not knowing anything about Islam is misleading at best. Tauheed has been the foundation of all Prophets that we have been told of from Nuh (a.s.) to Isa (a.s.).

The rest of what you said, I prefer not to reply because I would rather move forward than go in circles.

PS: Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I was hoping instead for actual proof. Perhaps we can all learn to make it clear when something is an opinion rather than fact, for the lack of evidence to back it up later.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

The verse 19:12-13 comprise a statement of Allah regarding Yahya (as) and his attributes have been highlighted i.e.,

**Pickthal: (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And We gave him wisdom when a child, And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,…

**yes zakkatan has been used as an attribute of yahya that Allah gave him. No mention of ‘Salah’ here. ‘Auwsaini’ is not used rather ‘Aaataina’ (we gave) is used. there is difference between Allah giving ‘Zakatan’ to someone and Allah commanding someone to give zakat.

Having said that, it is better to stick to the verse we are talking about. So here it is again

**19:30 He (Jesus(as)) said: "Verily, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;‘’
19:31 "And He has made me blessed wherever I be, and has enjoined on me (Awsani) Salah and Zakah, as long as I live.‘’

19:32 "And to be dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblessed.‘’**

What has been enjoined on him: 1) Salah 2) Zakat 3) being dutiful to his mother
What are his inherent/builtin attributes: 1) not arrogant 2) not unblessed or graceless

What was the form of Zakat, what were the pre-conditions are un-necessary issues to delve into. the main thing is that Salah and Zakat has been ordered by Allah to him

Maryam 19:31

Here is the link where you will find dozens of translations of this verse and words used for ‘Auwsaini’ are:

1. enjoined on 2) bequeath 3) commanded 4) directed 5) required of me 6) ordered 7) recommended
   From the above words, you will not even get a hint that praying and giving charity has been embedded in his nature.
   PS: I have only selected the translations from the generally accepted category

Secondly, you totally brushed aside the following statement from the tafsir

This is similar to the statement of Allah to Muhammad,
وَاعْبُدْ رَبَّكَ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَكَ الْيَقِينُ
And worship your Lord until there comes unto you the certainty (i.e. death). (15:99)

So 9:31 is similar to 15:99 where the holy prophet (pbuh) has been commanded to worship Allah till his death

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

psyah sahib,

if you read the tafsir ibn kaseer for the subject verse further, you will find following:

[QUOTE]

Concerning Allah's statement,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي ...

And to be dutiful to my mother.

This means, "He (Allah) has commanded me to treat my mother well.''

He mentioned this after mentioning obedience to his Lord, Allah. This is because Allah often combines the command to worship Him with obedience to the parents.

This is similar to Allah's statement,

وَقَضَى رَبُّكَ أَلاَّ تَعْبُدُواْ إِلاَّ إِيَّـهُ وَبِالْوَلِدَيْنِ إِحْسَـناً

And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him and that you be dutiful to your parents. (17:23)

[/QUOTE]

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

The message of Muhammad (s.a.w.) is the same message as those of previous prophets. They all professed the worship of One God without joining any partners with Him. So the point about Isa (a.s.) not knowing anything about Islam is misleading at best. Tauheed has been the foundation of all Prophets that we have been told of from Nuh (a.s.) to Isa (a.s.).

The rest of what you said, I prefer not to reply because I would rather move forward than go in circles.

PS: Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I was hoping instead for actual proof. Perhaps we can all learn to make it clear when something is an opinion rather than fact, for the lack of evidence to back it up later.

Sorry. Dont mean to keep quoting you. Problem is we dont seek help from Quran and just say what sounds good. We are told in Quran that despite prophets having same beliefs, an ummah is formed after a book. Please read the following verses:

[3:66] O People of the Book! why do you dispute concerning Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Will you not then understand?

And in another verse ( cant seem to find it ), Abraham (as) is said to be a part of the group of Noah(as).

With the above verses, one thing is clear. An ummah is formed after the revelation of a book/shariyah. Despite Jesus a.s being a true prophet of Allah, he is not sent for Muslims. He cannot be a part of Muslim ummah as Quran is revealed after His death. However, Jesus can be grouped with Israelites prophets, and He infact was a Bani Israeli Prophet. Abraham cannot be jew or Christian. Jesus cannot be Muslim. Hes a prophet of bani israel only.. who told them exactly what Allah had commanded him to tell the people.

[psyah]

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

@kchughtai

The verse 19:12-13 comprise a statement of Allah regarding Yahya (as) and his attributes have been highlighted i.e.,

**Pickthal: (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And We gave him wisdom when a child, And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,…

**yes zakkatan has been used as an attribute of yahya that Allah gave him. No mention of ‘Salah’ here. ‘Auwsaini’ is not used rather ‘Aaataina’ (we gave) is used. there is difference between Allah giving ‘Zakatan’ to someone and Allah commanding someone to give zakat.

Having said that, it is better to stick to the verse we are talking about. So here it is again

**19:30 He (Jesus(as)) said: "Verily, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;‘’
19:31 "And He has made me blessed wherever I be, and has enjoined on me (Awsani) Salah and Zakah, as long as I live.‘’

19:32 "And to be dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblessed.‘’**

What has been enjoined on him: 1) Salah 2) Zakat 3) being dutiful to his mother
What are his inherent/builtin attributes: 1) not arrogant 2) not unblessed or graceless

What was the form of Zakat, what were the pre-conditions are un-necessary issues to delve into. the main thing is that Salah and Zakat has been ordered by Allah to him

Maryam 19:31

Here is the link where you will find dozens of translations of this verse and words used for ‘Auwsaini’ are:

1. enjoined on 2) bequeath 3) commanded 4) directed 5) required of me 6) ordered 7) recommended
   From the above words, you will not even get a hint that praying and giving charity has been embedded in his nature.
   PS: I have only selected the translations from the generally accepted category

Secondly, you totally brushed aside the following statement from the tafsir

So 9:31 is similar to 15:99 where the holy prophet (pbuh) has been commanded to worship Allah till his death

Peace kchughtai

Please see the definition of the word “enjoin”

Enjoin on google also has the meaning … “Ordain” and “urge someone to do something” … Coupled with the point made by Sh. Ibn Kathir … That this verse is the CLEAREST evidence …of the divine decree … So who are you trying to kid? Yourself … Not me …

The root is WSY … It means to instruct with persuasion …

I didn’t brush aside any statement … I’m showing you that your argument of Isa (AS) not being alive on account of your false understanding of zakat in this verse … Is what it is … clutching at straws. The thing is it is not your argument … It is an established argument by your people which is why you are having a major problem with my response …

[kchughtai]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

It is not I who is clutching on straws but it is you. It is as clear as day light

The root is WSY ... It means to** instruct **with persuasion ...

do I need to say more?

this word in different forms has been used in more than one place in Quran. I can quote them but I am sure it will fall on deaf ears.

The sentence you are holding on to is.

"Allah informed him of what would be of his affair until his death. This is the firmest evidence against the people who deny Allah's preordained decree.''

this is not going in your favor since if your version is right then the decree of Allah is nauzbillah held in abeyance for a fairly long time.

The point is, it would have been his practice as instructed by Allah during his lifetime but that is not the case for more than 2 millenniums if he is still alive. As I said earlier, this verse implies that he would be dwelling among people wherever he might be not in heavens where such practice is meaningless. enough has been said. I don't want to continue it with you. Allah hafiz

[psyah]

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

It is not I who is clutching on straws but it is you. It is as clear as day light

The root is WSY ... It means to** instruct **with persuasion ...

do I need to say more?

this word in different forms has been used in more than one place in Quran. I can quote them but I am sure it will fall on deaf ears.

The sentence you are holding on to is.

"Allah informed him of what would be of his affair until his death. This is the firmest evidence against the people who deny Allah's preordained decree.''

this is not going in your favor since if your version is right then the decree of Allah is nauzbillah held in abeyance for a fairly long time.

The point is, it would have been his practice as instructed by Allah during his lifetime but that is not the case for more than 2 millenniums if he is still alive. As I said earlier, this verse implies that he would be dwelling among people wherever he might be not in heavens where such practice is meaningless. enough has been said. I don't want to continue it with you. Allah hafiz

Peace kchughtai

The translation should be understood that Isa (AS) is saying that he is naturally praying and naturally inclined to goodness, a charitable person ... The proof of this understanding is present throughout his (AS) life ... And he (AS) can practice this anywhere either in heaven or on earth ...

Had it been what you insist about the giving of charity money then bring from the historical accounts where Isa (AS) is giving money to people ... Also, he (AS) was poor and didn't need to give charity in the way of money ... But rather in the New Testament we see ample references of the child teaching in the synagogues ... And curing people through miracles ... That was his (AS) zakat ... !!!

As can be seen from Yahya (AS) who was contemporary to Isa (AS) was also attached to the term zakat ... And they were both poor ... For sure the holy Qur'an supports itself and this is clear indication that your contention of shari'ah based zakat and how Isa (AS) could be giving zakat and if he (AS) is alive and not giving zakat then our concept of him (AS) being alive is false .... So false a contention is this that it demonstrates you find it so hard to actually break through the rigour and well networked and consistent referential integrity of the establish orthodoxy of Islam, that it forces you to go to minutia ... In order to push an argument ... In essence zakat has nothing to do with his being alive in heaven ans his being alive in heaven has nothing to do with how he (AS) spends his life on Earth ...

Also, this statement was situational ... Right until the very end point Isa (AS) prayed for protection and being delivered from his enemies ... So we don't assume that he (AS) knew until the very last moments that he would be raised and staying heaven until the second coming.

That verse is Allah (SWT) quoting the words of Isa (AS) ... There is no reason to believe that Isa (AS) made that statement in the knowledge of the nature of his stay in heaven ... So this is where you are clutching at straws.