Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Ameen.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

This.

I also think it's the way we're brought up now, all these "amendments" proliferate throughout the years/generations and we're at a point where we need to re-evaluate what it means to be a muslim and follow Islam in its entirety.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace obaid1982

This attempt to ridicule core Islamic beliefs says more about your position than your actual position on Sayyiduna Isa (AS) ... It shows that whatever munhaj you do follow sees there is no problem in using ridicule, rather than evidence to get your point across.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

And from the people who ridicule the precious words of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW)

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace psyah,

Thinking about one eyed dajjal being literal is something absurd and by thinking that, there is no way one is ridiculing the sayings of Muhammad SAW. We must think outside the box and must believe whatever Holy Prophet PBUH have said should not always be taken literally when it comes to ahadith forecasting about future events. Just merely believing blindly that such and such will happen exactly how you think it will is whats actually ridiculing the sayings of Holy Prophet PBUH.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace Mr.Popat

No ... The intent behind saying "one-eyed monster" is ridicule ... You have a lack of believing anything that is outside your frame of reference. The Dajjal is a human being and the way we know this is through the hadith ...

The way he was understood by the Sahabah (RA) was a that he is a man, they feared some people to be Dajjal and never did RasoolAllah (SAW) offer any clarification to them that he is not a man. Rather we are told that Isa (AS) will be charged to kill him. By saying one eyed monster you avoid addressing the ahadith. That is your tactic ... And blatant disregard of hadith ... The words uttered by our dear prophet (SAW).

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Assalama alaykum respected brother - The root cause of blatant disregard of the hadith ... The words uttered by our dear prophet (SAW) .... lies in the following utterance:

*
[QUOTE]
"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER."
[/QUOTE]
* (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)

The above quote is uttered by none other than Mirza Ghulam Ahamd Qadiani!!!

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace psyah,

You just dont want to see ahadith in its entirety. Dajjal by definition means the one who deceives. The way sahabah understood some stuff were not always true. In fact, you may remember the hadith in which holy prophet PBUH said to keep eating sehri till white thread is distinguished from the black thread. He was referring to dawn, but there was a sahabah who actually put a white and black thread infront of him and kept eating sehri. There are many other instances where Sahabah sometimes took something literally when holy prophet Muhammad PBUH didnt mean it that way.

When someone was referred as Dajjal by sahabah, what did they mean ?? did they not know that the person had 2 eyes ? did they not know he was not riding a donkey ??? But what we see Holy prophet pbuh saying is that if he is the dajjal, then Messiah will be the one who will kill him.
Think about it please. No where did Muhammad PBUH say he cannot be dajjal since hes not one-eyed, not riding donkey etc. But rather that if he is the dajjal ( meaning the one whose deceitful ) then Messiah will kill him.

In one hadith we know dajjal wont enter Makkah.. then in another hadith we see that Muhammad PBUH saw a dream in which dajjal is doing tawaaf of Kaabah. Then theres a person referred as dajjal who was not one-eyed, not riding donkey etc and not only sahabah didnt mention it but neither did holy Prophet phuh. This is what happens when you dont take into account all ahadith. You just have one concept fed in your head, and now no matter whats presented to you, you will explain ahadith in accordance with how your beliefs are.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

lol. You're funny.

I have explained this to you many times. You just dont seem to get it.
Quran is the word of Allah and therefore not a single word or letter of it is or can be changed. Every single word is preserved.
Ahadith on the other hand , however, were compiled some 200 years after holy prophet pbuh's death. Do you know Imam Bukhari discarded thousands and thousands of ahadith because he figured there was a man writing fake ahadith?

We believe Hz Ahmad(as) to be the same reformer, Imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah which was foretold by Prophet Muhammad PBUH. And mind you, he is suppose to be the hakam and adal person. No one can tell which hadith is true and which is not UNLESS and UNTIL that person is from Allah. Are there not already categories of ahadith being strong , weak etc ? who gave them the authority ? It is the Messiah who will tell Muslims which ahadith stands correct and which is not, and He will explain to Muslim ummah the true explanation of ahadith as well.

Read the same statement again. This time, consider that Hz Isa (as) himself is saying it, who according to you will come back from skies. Now tell me where do you object ? Will you listen to Hz Isa(as) who will tell you which hadith is wrong and which is right and the explanation he gives for some ahadith ? or will you listen to scholars, who categorized ahadith in the best of their knowledge (not from divine knowledge).

I want to hear the answer from you on this one. Kindly write back to me and tell me what your stance would be on such a scenario ? Thank you.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

I am not surprised that you find it funny. The simple reason that I don’t seem to ‘get it’ is that you are explaining it with a twist and slant of your faith’s requirements. Sorry no takers.

The above is correct BUT ‘you guys’ manipulate/twist/ distort/ misinterpret the Blessed Words of Allah Almighty to suit your faith’s requirements. Sorry no takers.

The hadith books were compiled 130 to 180 hijrah but you must remember that hadith material was committed to the memory too.

The noble Imam Bukhari (ra) has already done an excellent job sorting out the sahih ahadith from the forged ones.

So no need for some pretender/imposter to reject or ‘invent’ new hadith to suit his nefarious agenda.

You can believe what you like as that is your free choice.

Imam Mahdi’s name will be (Hz) Muhammad ibn Abdullah (ra) and he will be from the progeny of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw). The one you follow is named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.

Promised Messiah’s name will be (Hz) Isa Ibn Maryum (as). The one you follow is named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani ibn Chirag Bibi.

Imposter has no rights in Islam! Let alone try to reclassify ahadith to suit his nefarious agenda.

I will listen to and obey/follow Isa ibn Maryum (as) who will descend in Damascus when Allah almighty wills it.

You my friend are listening to and obeying/following Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani ibn Chirag Bibi.

You can listen to and obey/follow whom you like as that is your free choice.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace Mr.Popat

There were a few of the Sahabah who had taken things wrongly, but they were given clarification straight away. But it is not our belief that the Sahabah en masse could have missed this Dajjal thing - plus no clarification from RasoolAllah (SAW) at the time. The idea that Dajjal is not on a donkey is null since people don't look for a person constantly on a donkey - they merely look to connect it with what he might own.

The people who some of the Sahabah (RA) thought were Dajjal were one-eyed. The Sahabah (RA) were the best of the followers and the best qualified to interpret the sayings of RasoolAllah (SAW). Especially people like Sayyidina Abu Bakr As-Siddique (RA), Sayyidina Ibn 'Abbas (RA) and Sayyidina Ali (RA) ... so there were some great minds among the Sahabah (RA) too. Dajjal will not be expected to be constantly riding a donkey and he never was ... Also, when describing someone if the important factors at the time do not include the eye then it is not true to say that the Dajjal was NOT one eyed in that hadith ... Unless it states specifically "He was not one-eyed".

If there are two hadith that focus on differing aspects of a person's description - we don't take the idea from one hadith and ignore the other ... we take both ideas.

My point being you cannot use the idea that some of the Sahabah (RA) who did not understand some direct instructions properly is license for you to re-interpret the established ideas by Sahabah (RA) as you wish.

Regarding the assertion of Imam Al-Bukhari (Rahmatullahialayh) threw out thousands of hadith is a lie ... None of the Imams threw out thousands of hadith - A small portion of fabricated hadith have been determined from the set of all hadith, all the other hadith has merely been given a tag - none are thrown out ... those remainder some may be dubious, some are sound in meaning but have no complete chain, some with one complete chain, some with multiple chains and so on ... If you are referring to the collection of the Shahih of Imam Al-Bukhari then that book's specific purpose was to compile a set of hadith with muttawatir narrations ... that is all - He has made other compilations which did include other ahadith.

Never did Imam Al-Bukhari throw anything in the waste bin ... And if we want to talk metaphor here - Who would believe that Messiah has arrived when neither the pig was slain nor the cross destroyed but rather our very own traditions were thrown away by him.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Listen buddy.. i'm not here to discuss again all that I have already discussed with you. I'm not a jew who believe only when everything must come to its fulfillment literally. What his name would be..where he will be born.. whose progeny he will be from are all (im sorry to say) but ridiculous questions to be asking, if you dont even have an iota of knowledge about the history of bani israel.. the reasons why Jesus a.s was rejected.. why Muslims like you were compared with jews etc. We must see the signs and the era in which he was suppose to come and then look for other signs foretold in Quran about the truthfulness of someone ( being living after the claim of prophethood, Allah's support with him etc ).. the name of the person , his place of birth are all the types of questions jews used to ask and still do. I'm sorry but you are talking just like jews.

All that aside, I dont have time to quote every single thing you wrote. I still have not gotten my answer. If your Messiah were to do the same .. that is, tell you what ahadith is right and what shouldnt be taken as literally etc.. what would you tell him ? will you follow what he says or insist on your stance that no one has the right the question ? Will you reject him on the basis that he's telling you something else other than what your scholars have taught you ?? yes or no ?

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

That's what i'm saying sir. Sahabah did not forget that Muhammad PBUH told about Dajjal being one-eyed, whose ride will be donkey whose ears will be some feet apart from eachother, who will eat fire, who will travel across the world within hours etc.. and despite that, they referred a man dajjal who was neither one eyed, and had no such ride. Did you see Muhammad PBUH telling sahabah that he cannot be dajjal since hes not one-eyed? Are you then telling me that sahabah forgot ? are you telling me that Prophet Muhammad PBUH took his words back about dajjal being one eyed?

Regarding my comment on Imam Al bukhari (ra), I only talked about it since you give me the explanation that this and this way is how sahabah understood .. that's when I said that the ahadith were compiled around 200 years after His death.. what makes you think the way you understood any concept today is how sahabah understood it too ? This is the role of Messiah. He will be hakam adal.. His words about the authenticity of something will stand correct as long as the explanation he gives are in complete accordance to Quran and obviously whatever wahi he will receive. I said this to ask ibn e sadique what does he have objection with ? what will he do when the same is being done by Jesus(as)? Will you listen to him or your scholars ? whatever your answer will be is my answer. It's as simple as i can explain him. He's pretty fond of quoting that statement though.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH have foretold about today's era. He foretold about dajjal being one eyed (worldly eye shining,while blind from spiritual eye), He foretold about the time when Muslim Ummah will be just like jews. He referred to first and last 10 verses of surah kahf to understand who dajjal is. He PBUH said Messiah will kill swine and break cross. He said dajjal will ride a donkey who will eat fire , will be fast in travelling etc. He PBUH said lunar and solar eclipse will occur at the time of Mahdi's arrival.. Quran says sun and moon will be brought together as a sign of the hour. Messiah is told to be the sign of the hour by hadith. Need I say more ??

We have given brain. We have given logic. We have given Quran. Here's your chance to break free the ideologies you refer as Islam and think. Think whether what you're doing is in accordance to Islam. To criticize is easy, but to be neutral is very hard. May Allah enable you to see the true light of Islam and enable you to be a part of it. Ameen.

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Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

Yes buddy worry not I am not here to discuss issues that have been dealt with.

Nobody called you a Jew. You got it wrong; the Jews did not wait for the events to come their fulfillment literally to believe them.

The Jews mostly are obstinate, pig-headed bordering on rebelliousness. They stubbornly stick to their dogma even when all the evidence is against them. Read the Blessed Quran again and you will see this theme repeated all the time.

Read the following incident of Hz. Abdullah Ibn Salam (ra) accepting Islam.

With all the evidence in their books they still pig-headedly refused to accept the truth. But Hz. Abdullah Ibn Salam (ra) did and many others did the same.

Read about the incident:

Abdullah Ibn Salam (All parts) - The Religion of Islam

You mean the blessed Prophet (saw) wasted his time repeating the names of Mahdi and Promised Messiah?

If so, then you are extremely wrong. The Blessed Prophet (saw) repeatedly mentioned the names of Mahdi and Promised Messiah so that his Ummah get it right.

But then as the human nature goes there are a few tiny number of humans who like the obstinate Jews will deny the truth staring them in the face and follow any Pied Piper/wannabe mahdi/false prophet (to their doom).

Buddy you are the last person I want to learn about history of Jews – The Blessed Quran says enough for me to know that the Jews were arrogant, obstinate, stiff-necked and rebellious in nature.

If the truth struck a Jew in the face with all the evidence in its favour, the Jew being stubborn and arrogant, will never recognize and acknowledge the truth.

You my buddy and likes of you are in the some trait as that of the Jews.

I have answered you well enough but you just don’t see it.

The eminent scholars of days of yore have done excellent job of sorting out of the ahadith literature.

Islam as a religion is complete – nothing more can be added to it and neither anything can be taken out of it. So Imam Mahdi (ra) will not re-interpret ahadith to suit any agenda.

The agenda of Imam Mahdi Muhammad ibn Abdullah (ra) will be to unify the Muslim Ummah. Wayward Muslims and those who had formed their own sects will be shown the true path. He will also unify the Muslim Ummah politically under one leadership. He will be righteous Khaleefah.

If I am around when Imam Mahdi (ra) appears I will follow him knowing full well that he will adding nothing to Islam and neither taking out of Islam.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Again.. not going to quote every little thing you write.
Easy to point fingers, isnt it ? Now listen to me with your ears open and with your brain fully functioning.

Muhammad PBUH was called 'Ibn e Kabsha' by His people. Because His beliefs resembled a person who died before Him who was called Ibn e Kabsha. Despite people knowing His name was Muhmmad Ibn e Abdullah Ibn e Abdul Mutlib (pbuh). Reason why is that it is common practice in Arab to give the name of someone who came earlier to someone who resemble him in personality and characteristics.

Giving the name of Isa to Messiah sent to Muslims by characteristic ( like isa a.s was sent in bani israel to unite bani israel, his teachings such that he was a peace loving person, someone who was a jew, who obeyed musvi shariyah etc ) and since there is no Mahdi except Isa ( Ibn e maajah's hadith ), Muhammad PBUH clarified by saying His name will be like his name.. meaning dont think he will be from someone outside.. he will be following Muhammadi shariyah. In one hadith it mentions .. his coming is as if I'm coming back (metaphorically).

When John the baptist was referred as Elijah by Jesus (as). When Muhammad PBUH was referred as Ibn e Kabsha. When Hazrat Aisha (ra) was referred as companion of Yusuf(as)>> ( when Hz Muhammad PBUH insisted Hz Abu Bakr(ra) to lead prayer and Hz Aisha(ra) kept telling him to ask someone else to lead the prayer ). When a man in Makkah was referred as Dajjal. Why can the Messiah not be named Isa, why cant Mahdi who is the Messiah be referred as Muhammad Bin Abdullah ?

You are the one denying truth when everything has been shown to you clearly! You are the one who are following the footsteps of jews by insisting that you will not believe in any person if their names are not such and such etc...exactly like jews ! and wait a minute.. how does it make me jew-like to follow a false messiah ?? huh, come again ?? they're still waiting for their Messiah who will bring peace in the world, who will re-gain jewish power, who will reunite bani israel. Give me a break. Atleast refrain from calling someone else jewish-like when you know whose acting like jews.

[QUOTE]
Buddy you are the last person I want to learn about history of Jews – The Blessed Quran says enough for me to know that the Jews were arrogant, obstinate, stiff-necked and rebellious in nature.

If the truth struck a Jew in the face with all the evidence in its favour, the Jew being stubborn and arrogant, will never recognize and acknowledge the truth.

You my buddy and likes of you are in the some trait as that of the Jews.
[/QUOTE]

What justification you as a Muslim would give to Jews about how Isa Ibn e Maryam(as) was infact the true Messiah for them?

[QUOTE]
I have answered you well enough but you just don’t see it.

The eminent scholars of days of yore have done excellent job of sorting out of the ahadith literature.

Islam as a religion is complete – nothing more can be added to it and neither anything can be taken out of it. So Imam Mahdi (ra) will not re-interpret ahadith to suit any agenda.

The agenda of Imam Mahdi Muhammad ibn Abdullah (ra) will be to unify the Muslim Ummah. Wayward Muslims and those who had formed their own sects will be shown the true path. He will also unify the Muslim Ummah politically under one leadership. He will be righteous Khaleefah.

If I am around when Imam Mahdi (ra) appears I will follow him knowing full well that he will adding nothing to Islam and neither taking out of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

This is your condition. May Allah forgive you. You are putting scholars work of sorting out ahadith superior to someone who will be coming from Allah who will tell you the correct interpretation of ahadith and which are correct/weak/unauthentic etc. May Allah forgive you for what you have to say simply to object on Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as).

Islam is a complete religion. How does a divinely guided person telling you which ahadith are to be taken how.. would make you think its adding or subtracting something from Islam ? what's wrong with you buddy ? Islam is complete. Why are there so many sects ? Allah refrains Muslims from following any sect. Yeah, a sect which is started by the prophet of Allah is the one Allah has liked. When a prophet comes, everyone is going to the same direction.. it is then when Allah saves humanity by sending a prophet and from Him he establishes a Jamaat who does work to reunite the ummah by presenting clear understanding of concepts ummah has been confused about. This is the way of Allah. This is the history of earliest ummah you can go back to.

May Allah enable you to read my post with an open heart. Ameen.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Here's a simple question which I would expect a simple answer.

You have such many ahadith in regards to coming of Messiah. Lets just say 20 ahadith. About where he will come, what his name is, what his role will be etc. Lets say 20 ahadith.

Do you expect all 20 ahadith to be fulfilled in order to accept him as the Messiah ? What about if only 15 are fulfilled and rest 5 are not ? what about 10 have been fulfilled literally.. 5 metaphorically and 5 were not fulfilled at all ? I mean.. what is the point at which you will accept him as truthful ?

Going to reject some ahadith and follow him ..OR going to accept all ahadith to be true and reject him ?

Thanks.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Peace Mr.Popat

Please provide me the evidence where you think that it was the Sahabah's consensus in believing that some person who was not one-eyed was Dajjal. As I said, RasoolAllah (SAW) did give this clarification ... he (SAW) told his companions (for the reason that if they were concerned about whether they would recognise the Dajjal or not) that he could be RECOGNISED for that fact that he is one-eyed ... It is subsequently the consensus position that Dajjal is one-eyed and a man. It is also consensus that the donkey is a metaphor ... you are trying to assert that the hadith speak on behalf of all of the Shahabah at the same time - they don't. I said some people got things wrong ... So if you want to take this further - bring a specific hadith or set of ahadith and we will study them together.

To add if you can find out the timing of when those hadith were stated ... because the timing will tell us when the Sahabah (RA) were aware of the fact that Dajjal would be one-eyed.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

No worries – that is your prerogative.

Yes pointing fingers is easy – that’s what you have doing here in each and every post of yours ;)

Take note when you point your finger at others your own 3 fingers are pointing back at you ;).

If you don’t believe me, point a finger away from yourself and watch your 3 fingers pointing back at YOU.

You mean to say that this obscure person 'Ibn e Kabsha' was a forerunner of preaching Islam?????

If one dreams in sleep or drug induced ‘enlightenment’ that in any stretch of imagination Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani resembled the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) even to lowest degree possible – He should tender his apologies. And seek forgiveness from Allah Almighty

This is nothing but Ahmadi/Qadiani speak - completely at variance with Islamic Beliefs.

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Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

These are one off incidences but the Blessed Prophet (saw) repeatedly mentioned on many different occasions the Mahdi’s name will be Muhammad ibn Abdullah and that he will from his progeny. Meaning that the Mahdi will be an Arab by race, Quraishi by tribe and Hashami by clan.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi Qadiani was a Punjabi – the clan was Birlas and original ethnicity was Turkish from Central Asia!!!!!

Mr. Popat – names are just one of the signs for Mahdi and the Massiah – The Blessed Prophet (saw) has mentioned a lot of other details with regards to them. Their physical features, ages and locations where they will be. And he tasks they will perform.

Whereas Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was singing hymns of his loyalty/devotion to the British Raj

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Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

Re-Read the following: