Are taleban today's kharijiites?

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

I watched a propaganda video of taleban with regards to their operations in Swat/Dir titled “Ghazwa e hind”. In that video they have shown the severed heads of 18 soldiers. They have used this ayat as a justification for beheading them. They have ready made excuses for each and every action they take.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@bao_bihari

Heer kon thee ranjha kon tha.
*
Oo bhai we are discussing whether they are justified to be called khawarij or not. i think not. we are debating here , shikayatoon ki zaroorat nahi.

The way they use Islamic teachings to brand others as kafirs and wajib ul qatl, and then carry out their edicts, they fulfill the criteria of khwarijs.

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@jasos

Who are Kharji ?
They are followers of Yazeed , they are not Muslims but they called Muslims their self and you know who are followers of Yazeed ? Who talks against Ahal-e-Bait, and who are Ahal-e-bait ? We !!! so anyone who speaks a single words about us he is Kharji and today’s kahrji in this discussion you and Bao Bihari :cobra:

main nay yah sub kuch aik majlis main suna tha iss liye gosh guzar kar dia warnah mairay pass itna knowledge kahan :hinna:

[Sa1eem]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@diwana

It is based upon holding an opinion. That’s all.
It is not a crime.

Going beyond this boundary and hurt or kill other person who recites kalima or prays is definitely a crime.

According to hadiths if someone recites kalima, then there is admonition to kill that person.

The bold part may not be correct in your post. Since there are hadiths in which it says if someone calls other kafir then one of those two are kafir. Not just the one who calls other kafir.

“If a man calls his Muslim brother kafir, it applies to one of the two.” (Bukhari)

"Whenever a man accuses another of being a kafir or wrong-doer, this accusation will rebound on him if the one accused is not in reality a kafir or wrong-doer." (Bukhari)

***It is a separate discussion who should be called kafir.

^^^ you have quoted the hadith rightly …Now tell us:

What determines that a person is Muslim?

1: A person claims that he is Muslim …

or

2: Someone (Takfeeri) believes that a person is Muslim regardless of what a person himself claims?

Or you think that Quran, Prophet (SAW), and Islam is silent about this important matter that … who one should consider Muslim?

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

The problem with using word as kharijis (or neo-kharijis ) is because it has some reference to a ‘specific group of people’ who do bad things and are two faced and these bad people supposedly belong to a certain area in the world.

Now:

The crimes against humanity can be done by anyone and people from many different areas of the world.

If we continue to use word Kharijis for criminals belonging to only a specific group of people, then we essentially (and inadvertently) say that, since other people who do not fit the criteria of being kharijis ( as per these vague hadiths), they are somehow not criminals.

A big mistake!

Another big mistake is that just like giving random fatwas to call someone kafirs, fatwas of someone being kharijis is also given loosely to malign someone who does not agree with some religious beliefs of fatwaa baaz.

Henc**e:

1- Call those who commit crimes criminals and widen the scope of looking for and catch the real culprits regardless if they fit the criteria of these hadiths to be called kharijis or whatever, or belong to a specific area in the world.**

2- An open license to commit crime cannot be and should not be given to anyone regardless that person belongs to any specific group or somehow fits the criteria of being a khariji.

**3- Who knows how many people are actually “washing their hands in this running river” and taking advantage of situation to kill innocent people. **

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@Sa1eem

^^^ you have quoted the hadith rightly …Now tell us:

What determines that a person is Muslim?

1: A person claims that he is Muslim …

or

2: Someone (Takfeeri) believes that a person is Muslim regardless of what a person himself claims?

Or you think that Quran, Prophet (SAW), and Islam is silent about this important matter that … who one should consider Muslim?

I said this is a different discussion altogether. There are two aspects which need to be looked at.

1- Personal freedom of holding an opinion. Legal aspect.

2- Religious aspect.

what I understand from some hadiths is that calling someone kafir who might be muslim is wrong.

But the room is left there for those who might not be Muslims and are called kafirs. As I cited those hadiths saying one of the two might be kafir.

Also** it is said that if someone recites kalimah and prays even to show off and it is not possible to prove that the person is reciting kalimah and praying just to show off then that person cannot be hurt or killed.
**
So your strict stance on calling people kharijis (two faced people) and hence worthy of being killed is debunked again.

Please remember, you yourself said these so called kharijis are Muslims.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

Now you are twisting the subject.

The thing is that … there are person who says that he is not Muslim (be that person Muslim or non-Muslim etc) … then you can call that person Kafir on his own confession, no problem.

Anyhow, hadith is clear that takfeer could make a person Kafir.

So, what you say about if a person claiming to be Muslim calls some other person claiming to be Muslim and has not done Takfeer a Kafir?

I have categorically put down that the person has not done takfeer as it is possible that takfeer could have made him Kafir … so there is excuse … actually … it is not excuse at all but obligation if takfeer is done and one on whom takfeer is done is Muslim … as that obligation is to safeguard the right of Muslim (a brother in faith) who is called Kafir when that Muslim claims that he is Muslim.

Anyhow, give the reason …

And also let us know that if confession of a person (that he is Muslim) is not enough then is it OK for a Muslim to call people like:

Shafi Usmani, Taqi Usmani, Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, Shibli Nomani, Nawaz Shareef, Ahtasham-ul-Haq Thanvi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Shah Faisal of KSA, Musharraf, Bhutto, Ayub Khan, BeNazir, Imran Khan, Zardari, Altaf Hussain, Imam Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, various Sahabas, and many others … who have not done Takfeer (as far as Muslim know) … ‘a Kafir’ …

and if not, then why?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

^^^ May be in your dictionary it is fine to call people (those I mentioned above) ‘Kafir’ on basis of personal understanding of Islam by individuals or group, but in my dictionary no Muslim can do that, and such person (or group) who would call ‘kafir’ a person who confesses to be Muslim, than that caller would be Takfeeri (hence dozakhi) because of his takfeer on Muslims (here Muslims are those who confesses or claim that they are Muslim).

Anyhow, if a Takfeeri (in group or individually) kills, be part of a group that kills after takfeer, or justify killing people on basis of their Takfeer, then that Takfeeri becomes Kharjee (dog of hell, to live in hell forever).

A criminal or murderer may go to heaven for various reasons, and their crimes can be forgiven (by state or individuals who became their victim, or even by Allah due to their other deeds) … but Kharjee’s crime cannot be forgiven … and that is to safeguard prerogative of Allah on judgement of a person’s Iman, and right of Muslims to be called Muslim on their confession … and that is the reason no Muslim or state have right to forgive or forgo a Kharjee … and even after death Kharjee would stay in hell forever as ‘dog of hell’.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

Going in circles. kittnay chakkar ho gae?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

^^^ Aap mujhay ‘post 147’ ka jawab day dayen (in clear words) … chakkar khatam ho jayea ga

That is: If confession of a person (that he is Muslim) is not enough to stop doing takfeer on that person then:

Is it OK with you that a person can call people mentioned below Kafir on that person’s personal like, dislike, understanding of Islam, or understanding of Islam that person consider religious-scholar … without being called Takfeeri … and is it all right to kill people mentioned below, promote killing them or be in group that justify killing them without getting considered Kharjee?

Shafi Usmani, Taqi Usmani, Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, Shibli Nomani, Nawaz Shareef, Ahtasham-ul-Haq Thanvi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Shah Faisal of KSA, Musharraf, Bhutto, Ayub Khan, BeNazir, Imran Khan, Zardari, Altaf Hussain, Imam Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, various Sahabas, and many others … who have not done Takfeer (as far as Muslim know) …

and if not, then why?

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@Sa1eem

Now you are twisting the subject.

I am not twisting anything. Have been writing very clearly.

Please read all my posts and I will not only repeat what I have been saying but also include the answers to your queries in this post.

@Sa1eem

The thing is that … there are person who says that he is not Muslim (be that person Muslim or non-Muslim etc) … then you can call that person Kafir on his own confession, no problem.

OK. No comments.

@Sa1eem

Anyhow, hadith is clear that takfeer **could make **a person Kafir.

No sir. Not as a general rule. You rightly said “could make” here.

Hadith also says one of the two may be kafir. Not just the person who calls other kafir. Please read above. This means that the person who is calling other may be right.

Also the other hadith makes the person kafir only when that person is wrongfully accusing other being a kafir. Read again the hadiths I quoted.

@Sa1eem

So, what you say about if a person claiming to be Muslim calls some other person claiming to be Muslim and has not done Takfeer a Kafir?

I will call that person to be wrong. That’s it. End of story. I have already said few times, calling someone kafir in itself (right or wrong) is not a crime nor it deserves death penalty.

@Sa1eem

I have categorically put down that the person has not done takfeer as it is possible that takfeer could have made him Kafir … so there is excuse ... actually … it is not excuse at all but obligation if takfeer is done and one on whom takfeer is done is Muslim … as that obligation is to safeguard the right of Muslim (a brother in faith) who is called Kafir when that Muslim claims that he is Muslim.

That is where you have been wrong all along.

**This is not enough excuse to kill or hurt a takfiri even if the takfiri person is wrong. **

@Sa1eem

Anyhow, give the reason …

@Sa1eem

And also let us know that if confession of a person (that he is Muslim) is not enough then is it OK for a Muslim to call people like:

Shafi Usmani, Taqi Usmani, Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, Shibli Nomani, Nawaz Shareef, Ahtasham-ul-Haq Thanvi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Shah Faisal of KSA, Musharraf, Bhutto, Ayub Khan, BeNazir, Imran Khan, Zardari, Altaf Hussain, Imam Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, various Sahabas, and many others … who have not done Takfeer (as far as Muslim know) … ‘a Kafir’ …

and if not, then why?

Anyone can call anyone kafir based on his or her understanding. It maybe wrong or right, but not a crime against humanity or any crime by any definition of law.

The person may have to come up with plausible, credible, likely valid, reason(s). That’s all.

And if the reasons are not given then so be it. Still, the person cannot be fought against or killed.

(Off course if this person goes outside this boundary of calling someone kafir wrongfully, then should be caught, tried, proved guilty and then be punished accordingly)

P.S. Ab Chakkar Khatam Ho jaye ga?

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

Saleem bhai;

Let me add here:

Who is right and wrong in calling someone kafir is completely separate discussion.

You asked me “What determines that a person is Muslim?”

I ask you who determines who is khariji?

Point is when people cannot with certainty determine who is Muslim or kafir, then how come there are people like you hell bent of calling people kharijis?

[bao_bihari]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@Sa1eem

Now you are twisting the subject.

The thing is that … there are person who says that he is not Muslim (be that person Muslim or non-Muslim etc) … then you can call that person Kafir on his own confession, no problem.

Anyhow, hadith is clear that takfeer could make a person Kafir.

So, what you say about if a person claiming to be Muslim calls some other person claiming to be Muslim and has not done Takfeer a Kafir?

I have categorically put down that the person has not done takfeer as it is possible that takfeer could have made him Kafir … so there is excuse … actually … it is not excuse at all but obligation if takfeer is done and one on whom takfeer is done is Muslim … as that obligation is to safeguard the right of Muslim (a brother in faith) who is called Kafir when that Muslim claims that he is Muslim.

Anyhow, give the reason …

And also let us know that if confession of a person (that he is Muslim) is not enough then is it OK for a Muslim to call people like:

Shafi Usmani, Taqi Usmani, Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, Shibli Nomani, Nawaz Shareef, Ahtasham-ul-Haq Thanvi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Shah Faisal of KSA, Musharraf, Bhutto, Ayub Khan, BeNazir, Imran Khan, Zardari, Altaf Hussain, Imam Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, various Sahabas, and many others … who have not done Takfeer (as far as Muslim know) … ‘a Kafir’ …

and if not, then why?

it all boils down to aqaedh. It is some time necessary for a scholar to do takfir if he considers that these aqaedh are not in accordence with islam and will take people to wrong path. How to solve this problem as understanding of scholars may vary due toinformation they are provided is to havea central fatwa committee who may have the reposnsibility of giving fatwa. There could be separate fatwa committe for different sects.

So if some one comes and asks a scholar that my husband recites kalima and says he is muslim but do not consider hadrat essa to be a prophet and abuses him, scholar will definatly tell him that abusing a prophet throws one out of islam and hence your nikah is nulland void. At this point it is his duty to tell exactly what he thinks according to given scenario.(i have just given an example, please dont start fight over the example)

[kchughtai]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@Ali_Syed

I watched a propaganda video of taleban with regards to their operations in Swat/Dir titled “Ghazwa e hind”. In that video they have shown the severed heads of 18 soldiers. They have used this ayat as a justification for beheading them. They have ready made excuses for each and every action they take.

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/8_12.png

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

who needs Geert Wilders and his likes to malign Islam. Taliban hain na yeh kaam karney key liye.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@diwana

It is based upon holding an opinion. That’s all.
It is not a crime.

Going beyond this boundary and hurt or kill other person who recites kalima or prays is definitely a crime.

According to hadiths if someone recites kalima, then there is admonition to kill that person.

The bold part may not be correct in your post. Since there are hadiths in which it says if someone calls other kafir then one of those two are kafir. Not just the one who calls other kafir.

“If a man calls his Muslim brother kafir, it applies to one of the two.” (Bukhari)

"Whenever a man accuses another of being a kafir or wrong-doer, this accusation will rebound on him if the one accused is not in reality a kafir or wrong-doer." (Bukhari)

***It is a separate discussion who should be called kafir.

Yes it is a separate discussion and I don’t want to delve deeper in this but the main point that you overlooked is that according to the hadiths you mentioned and other sources, takfeer is not a trivial matter. It is not mere holding an opinion. It is like walking on a thin red line and there is great danger of tripping on the wrong side. the hadiths mentioned above made this point pretty clear.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@kchughtai

Yes it is a separate discussion and I don’t want to delve deeper in this but the main point that you overlooked is that according to the hadiths you mentioned and other sources, takfeer is not a trivial matter. It is not mere holding an opinion. It is like walking on a thin red line and there is great danger of tripping on the wrong side. the hadiths mentioned above made this point pretty clear.

Same goes with khawarij, every one giving fatwa of a group being khariji based on his personal opinion(and that too without much knowledge of the subject as is obvious from this thread) .

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@Ali_Syed

I watched a propaganda video of taleban with regards to their operations in Swat/Dir titled “Ghazwa e hind”. In that video they have shown the severed heads of 18 soldiers. They have used this ayat as a justification for beheading them. They have ready made excuses for each and every action they take.

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/8_12.png

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

This is what happens when you take verses in The Holy Quran out of context, or quote them without any proper knowledge or understanding of the respective Quranic revelations

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

@kchughtai

Yes it is a separate discussion and I don’t want to delve deeper in this but the main point that you overlooked is that according to the hadiths you mentioned and other sources, takfeer is not a trivial matter. It is not mere holding an opinion. It is like walking on a thin red line and there is great danger of tripping on the wrong side. the hadiths mentioned above made this point pretty clear.

First I did not say takfir is a trivial matter. All it makes the person to be either lying (if wrong) or truthful (if correct).

Hadith, (for the third time I am saying) gives room for the takfiri to be true.

Being takfiri is completely acceptable legally.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

^ we will take about it some other time in detail. ‘Kufr’ is denial of truth or not accepting the truth from Allah. ‘Takfeer’ is putting a label of ‘denial’ on someone who calls and considers himself a muslim. so there is a clear conflict. ‘takfeer’ goes against the very definition of ‘kufr’ and ‘kafir’. noone can make a kafir. The ‘kafir’ is one who rejects the truth willfully. enough for now. but if time permits, we can talk about this issue in a different thread.

[Aukhan]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

Yes they are kharjis and those who support these barbarians are also kharjis that include the ignorant mullah’s of JI, JUIF, PTI etc etc