Are taleban today's kharijiites?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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According to one prediction, Qiyamah would not come before ‘Dogs of Hell’ would broke lose amongst Muslims … and these dogs would create Fitna (killing and mayhem) all over Islamic world.

Who are ‘Dogs of Hell’?

These people are Kharjees (Taliban, Al-Q, sectarian outfits, and their likes)… whose practice of Islamic worshipping rituals could be exemplary (that would fool and attract innocent Muslims) … but they would be worse than Kuffars. They would have no soul of Islam neither any respect for creations of Allah or laws of Allah, neither they would have any love and respect of Prophet (SAW) nor would give any respect to remembering Prophet (SAW) … and even dead in graves would not be safe from their ‘fitna’.

Obviously, old Islam, Islam that Prophet (SAW) taught us, Islam that Sufis taught and Muslims practiced, Islam that believes on Allah as creator of everything that exists in universe and Prophet (SAW) as his messenger to all created souls … is subsiding and ‘Hogs of Hell’ have broken lose claiming themselves as Thekedar of Islam.

These ‘Dogs of Hell’ think that what they believe and practice is Islam but what they believe and practice is devil’s interpretations of Islam … interpretation that devil through his influenced scholars taught them (Kharjees) to misguide and create ‘Fitna’ amongst Muslim world.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

you are right …dogs of hell (Kharjees) got their training and arms from their ‘daddy’ USA .. and … money plus religious beliefs from their ‘mummy’ Saudi Arabia. Anyhow, being Bast*rd child of ‘USA and Saudi Arabia’, ‘dogs of hell’ would not even hesitate to rape and murder their own parents (USA and Saudi Arabia).

These Kharjees, product of illegitimate relationship between ‘USA and Saudi Arabia’ are creating fitna and fisad (killing, mayhem and havoc) all over the world, especially Muslim world. No peaceful citizen anywhere in Muslim world (as well as in some non-Muslim world) is safe from their fitna and fisad.

Brother read hadith number 173 and 176 (from Sunnah ibn Majah).

Hadith | Sunan Ibn Majah | The Book of the Sunnah | Chapter No: 1

Hadith no: 173
Narrated / Authority Of: Ibn Abu Awfa
“The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: ‘The Khawarij are the dogs of Hell.’” (Sahih)

Hadith no: 176
Narrated / Authority Of: Abu Ghalib
that Abu Umamah said: “(The Khawarij) are the worst of the slain who are killed under heaven, and the best of the slain are those who were killed by them. Those (Khawarij) are the dogs of Hell. Those people were Muslims but they became disbelievers.” I said: “O Abu Umamah, is that your opinion?” He said: “Rather I heard it from the Messenger of Allah (saw).” (Hasan)

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

I think we did have similar discussion about ‘khwarjis’ and unless it is proven after the criminals get caught and tried, there is no need to call people khwarjis so loosely.

Otherwise each group would start calling other khwarji and **the cycle will not end.
**
**It is about time we stop using religion/hadiths etc. to spread hatred or malign others. I am talking about spreading hatred against salafis/deobandis/wahabis etc.

(You can add shias, barelvis, sufis, Islamilies etc. in this list also. And Christians, Jews, Hindus, Ahmadis, etc. if you like)

We need to recognize the difference between those who just want to practice religion ‘strictly’ and those who are actually committing crimes.
**

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Prophet (SAW) kee hadith fitnay kay baray may bilkul clear hay aur yea bhie clear hay kay these people would be from Najd who would appear before judgment day.

And only movement that started from Najd in recent past is Wahabi doctrine. So, it is obvious that Prophet (SAW) hadith is talking about those who follow these doctrine or are influenced by these doctrine.

One thing about Kharjees doctrine that Prophet (SAW) mentioned is that, they would be exemplary in their ritual Islam, would be ignorant (would not listen, try to understand, or use logic in Islam), would be stubborn, would use ayah of Quran that is meant for Kuffars on Muslims, would judge Muslims according to their own understanding of Islam, would fight and kill Muslims, and would consider their own beliefs as not only correct but absolute.

We all know that no angel would come to pin point people who are Kharjees … and we have to take from what is written about them. If we do not then it would be at our own cost … that many Muslims are paying with their life and Islamic beliefs anyhow … buying hell for themselves.

In my opinion and opinion of many Muslims, everything mentioned about Kharjees (‘Dogs of hell’) comes true on people who are creating fitna in this world, especially Muslim world. I told you in past as well as today, that it is impossible for me as well as for many Muslims to not consider them Kharjees (Taliban and like) or consider them Muslim, and we would always use whatever written about Kharjees on them.

I would have added all groups in your list amongst Kharjees if they were under the influences by Najdi beliefs … because only clear hadith from Prophet (SAW) is that end time Kharjees would emerge from Najd (before judgement day) … they would be practicing Muslims … would claim themselves to be Muslim … and would create fitna and fisad amongst Muslims.

None of the groups you mentioned claim to be Muslims and still creating fitna and fisad amongst Muslims … plus beliefs of Kharjees that is mentioned in various hadith do not come true on any group of people you mentioned … except one whom I and many consider today as Kharjees.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

I don’t really know why we get into this debate.

If someone lives in Pakistan, he/she must follow Pakistani law and should be prosecuted regardless of his/her religious inclinations or ideologies.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Speaking out against these talibeasts is a jehad. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Do you know the reason of Kharjee fitna and why Pakistan as well as other Muslim countries finding difficulties in fighting Kharjees?

Iblis has played a great game. Initially, with the help of his aids in cloth of so-called Ulema, spread belief that huquq-ul-Allah is only Islam and slowly made Muslims to start ignoring or de-linking Huquq-ul-Ibad with Islam. Then start preaching that people can kill whomever they think are not following Huquq-ul-Allah (or huquq-ul-Allah in their opinion).

Then Najdi fitna started making visible Huquq-ul-Allah as utmost important Islam, blurring Islamic teachings and winning heart and mind of people with their visible practice of huquq-ul-Allah

Though, to create fitna and fisad on earth, these Kharjees deny most important element of huquq-ul-Allah themselves, as the biggest haq of Allah is to ‘judge his creation’ unchallenged and without sharing (that he would do on judgment day)… but these Kharjees love to judge Allah’s creations (Muslims as well as non-Muslims) as if these Kharjees are themselves God.

Thus Muslims who could fight Khajrees look at their zahiri Aamaal (visible Islamic rituals) and then start considering them pious Muslims fighting for Islam, so they feel reluctant in fighting Kharjees.

So, to fight Kharjees it is important for Muslims to recognise their true face, else Muslims would never be able to fight this fitna (rather, many would even join fitna and would start writing their own name amongst people of hell).

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Please read very carefully even if you do not agree with anything below.

I never talked about talibans. Only talked about salafis/deobandis/ or those who are called ahle hadith.

I never tried to associate any of the groups or religions with word kharijis.

Do you realize how dangerous it is to misuse the word Kharijis and associate this word with salafis/deobandis etc. and hence justifying somehow that ALL salafis or wahabis are bad people?

By your kind of thought process, every person who wants to follow Islam strictly or on surface could be called Kharjis. Since their hallmark is being rigid…and either do not take part in some actions or call them bida’. And they will recite Quran like no one else etc. etc.

Sure one may call those criminals Kharjis who actually do bad to others and are proven bad. But call only the criminals. Not the whole group of people.

By the way the word Najd is not an absolute indication that it belongs to a strict area.

Some say Najd/East words used in Hadiths are actually pointing out to Iraq.

The Hadith of Najd

[A hadeeth which has some controversy surrounding it due to **obvious sectarian reasons. **
A hadeeth which has been (deliberately) misunderstood by certain groups of people in order that they may spread their misguidance and deceive ignorant Muslims.
This because upon research and investigation and looking to the words of our early scholars we find that this hadeeth does not refer to the Najd that is famously known in Saudi today, but rather it refers to Iraaq.]

So there, your argument is debunked.

A lot of material is written on Salafis or Ahle Hadiths and most of those negative material is written by Barelvis or Ahle-Sunnat type of groups. OR By those who just want to make strict followers of Islam look bad.

Who knows who are actually kharijis. But we can always find who are committing crimes against innocent people.

My take on it is clear as I mentioned in bold and underlined statement. If we follow this, there will not be a cycle of blame game by using hadiths and hence the violence.

That is why I said earlier and repeat here:

We need to recognize the difference between those who just want to practice religion ‘strictly’ and those who are actually committing crimes.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

^^^ If you want to, I can prove you without doubt that in Najdi hadith, the place Najd mentioned by Prophet (SAW) is same Najd that we know today in Saudi Arabia and that Riyadh is major city in Najd.

I can also tell you about hadith that some people use to confuse and misguide Muslims (people who want to get misguided) about location of Najd mentioned by Prophet (SAW), claiming it to be in Iraq … and why such claim is absurd.

So, if I do that then what would be your believe then?

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

1- I showed you that the interpretation of hadith is controversial. Not everyone believes in what you interpret.

2- Even if you prove it was not Iraq but KSA, then what will that mean?

Will that mean that Salafis/Ahle hadits or Wahabis or… people living in KSA;

A- Are Kafir?

B- They deserve to be hated?

C- They deserve to be killed?

Take a pick!

And if someone digs up and brings hadith(s) which shows anything against any other sect or religion or… group of people for example gays being wrong then what will you do?

If Salafis themselves bring hadith(s) against any other sect then what will you do?

You would justify hatred for them or killing them?

Remember, I am talking about otherwise peaceful people who just want to follow their beliefs strictly.

(I have denounced criminals and those who attack sufis being wrong)

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

As far as I am concerned I think Kharijis are those who take the liberty of declaring every one other than them as kafirs/murtads/mushriqs and hence worthy of death. And those who create fitna in the ummah, so it includes all the jehadists amongst our midst. Unfortunately all jehadists belong to salafists, but I wouldn’t take the liberty to put all salafists in this bracket.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

No sir. Respectfully disagree.

Calling someone or group of people kafirs/murtids/musriks in itself is not wrong by any means and certainly NOT worthy of death.

Here is why;

1- Allah in Quran calls people kafirs/murtids/mushriks. Off course giving the reasons.

2- The Prophet SAW also did the same. Citing various reasons.

3- A lot of Muslims call Ahmadis Kafirs etc. Off course giving the reasons.

4-At Least Pakistani constitution has declared Ahmadis Kafirs. Of course citing the reasons.

5- A lot of people belonging to different sects call others to be Mushriks and some go as far as declaring others kafirs or close to being kafirs. Off course giving their reasons.

6- Salafis are accused of being takfiris, fine some may do that… but non-salafis have done the same thing calling them kharijis and takfiris or kafirs.
And again as we see above…the reasons given by Saleem Bhai. :slight_smile:

So, what to do, everyone is right?.. in condemning everyone else to death?

What if Ahmadis come back and say people who accuse us of being kafirs etc. deserve to die?

My point is that being takfiri in itself is not worthy of death!

Only proven criminals who act upon killing innocent, peaceful people are worthy of death.

Agree with the last underlined part.

The words fitna promoters and jehadists should be used only for proven criminals as I mentioned above. These people need to be caught.

All other need to be stopped by charging them to hate speech, trying them in open courts and be placed in jails.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

So … if I start calling kafirs/murtids/musriks to those who are considered Wahabis, Deobandis, Ahl-e-Hadis … giving reason, then would that be alright with you?

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Diwana Bhai … You should know that all fitna, fisad, and preaching against Islam that Muslims are following since days of Prophet (SAW) is done by these Kharjees (and this thread is about that phenomena spreading in Sindh) … and it is also true that these present day Kharjees have created fitna and fisad amongst Muslim Umman that is unparalleled in history.

Can you tell us, what was the purpose of Najdi hadith associated to Prophet (SAW)?

Is it to read the hadith (that is clear in every respect) … see it getting fulfilled and still keep quiet, do nothing, and hide face in pillow … while according to hadith Prophet (SAW) told Muslims to fight them, kill them … and that whoever amongst Muslims would fight them (with words or hands) would be best amongst Muslims of the time.

Najdi hadith is very famous ‘crystal clear’ hadith about a group of people who would appear near judgment day from Najd (around Riyadh) and would create fitna and fisad amongst Muslim Ummah. There are various trait marks about these people to help recognising them and according to some hadith, these Kharjees would be ‘dogs of hell’.

Najdi Hadith and associated traits of people mentioned in various other related hadiths is so clear that one cannot have two interpretations about location of Najd and people hadith talks about.

It is consensus amongst Muslims that these people would have exemplary outer Islam (ritual Islam), such that Muslims would feel reluctant to fight them or kill them, even though these Kharjees would be fighting and killing Muslims, all over Muslim world. They would create fitna and fisad on earth and especially amongst Muslims. They are also called ‘kharjees of end time’.

According to hadith, these people would be worse kind of creations and according to some hadith Prophet (SAW) told Muslims to fight them and kill them.

Now … from Najdi hadith and related hadith it is clear that they would appear as sect or group from Riyadh … and surrounding areas.

From their location and traits … and traits of their followers, it is also clear that these people are no one else other than Wahabis and those who got influenced by their teachings.

So, what do you want one to do … keep quiet, ignore prediction in hadith associated to Prophet (SAW), and hide face in pillow … meanwhile letting these Kharjees create fitna and fisad amongst Muslims and spreading amongst Muslims drawing young Muslims towards Hell?

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Why are they not actively doing terrorism in UAE, India, Indonesia, etc? People know that this kind of behavior would not be tolerated by law enforcement.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Then you should have no problem if salafis are called kharijis…

Besides you have answered it in your post that its Allah who has to decide who is a Muslim or not.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Absolutely no problem.

It is your right to consider anyone or any group kafir/murtid/mushrik.

On the other hand you should accept (if not agree to) others calling you (not personally) also kafir/murtid/mushrik if they find a reason. :slight_smile:

It is when you add the justification for their death when problem may arise, since in turn you (again not personally) may be considered someone who deserves to die.

Salafis in general are those who do follow strict religious teaching and they may hold other unacceptable beliefs as others including you feel, but as long as they are peaceful, they should not be condemned to death, is the essence of my argument.

Saleem bhai, you will never find me supprting those who commit crimes against humanity regarldless of which group or area they belong to.

The problem is that calling someone kharijis doesn’t stop there, people start thinking that they deserve to die even if they have not committed any crime.

No one knows if Qayamat is near and no one can certainly know who kharijis are even if one reads the hadiths.

These hadiths are controversial in their interpretations and content at best.

Danger is that everyone can interpret hadiths his or her own way and can start hating any group of people.

Judging people and using hadiths to support hateful judgements is plain and simple wrong.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Yes, I have no problem someone being called kharijis per se. But this labeling of people being kharijis does not stop there, it goes beyond and that is not good.

Please also read above what I said to Saleem bhai in above post.

If Allah has decided who is Muslim or not then who do you think is close to what Allah has declared being Muslim or not?

Any group can say others are not Muslims and we are.

If Salafis are accused of calling others non-Muslims/mushriks then what do non-Salafis do???

Pretty much the same thing! And the cycle goes on.

**Essentially, both are takfiris. **

Hence it is important to judge and punish based on bad action, not just based on what sect or religious beliefs one follows.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Even TTP who may be are most Illiterate amongst the lot do not say so. Infact people of secular bloc are the ones to be called khawarij as they deem any one not agreeing with them as khawarij/taliban lover/jehadist /hate monger and so on.

Can you share with me any literature of Jaish e muhammad/lashker e taiba/Sipah e sahbah/hizb ul mujahideen/TTP/Alqaeda to support what you have said? and so that i know that you are not just repeating what you have heard from cnn/fox/geo but you actualy know what they believe. i my self being one of those persons who are trying to get idea from both sides rather then making one sided comment know what actualy ar mistakes of these people but these are not what you people suggest.

2- All jehadist do not belong to salfist, rather they are not even in majority. In kashmiri groups only laskhr e taiyba is salafi, in TTP majority are deobandis or are ofshoot of jamat e islami/tanzeem e islami afghan taliban are also deobandi and alqaeda majority is not salafi as well.

PS:
i dont want to get in these discussions becuase people start calling me what i am not, and i am not ashamed of saying in what i believe , so it gets annoying at times.

and secondly people normaly know $%it about the subject , all they do is believing in those western media like muslims need to believe in quran.

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Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

NO one kills the “takfiris” per se. But on the other hand who the salafis consider “murtad’s/kafirs/mushriqs” are killed!