Are taleban today's kharijiites?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

I have to admit that sympathisers of TTP and sectarian outfits would never agree that TTP and sectarian outfits are Kharjees, whatever proof are presented. Anyhow, there is no confusion amongst Muslims about Kharjees neither there was ever confusion about Kharjees ... and there is no confusion that TTP and sectarian outfits are kharjees.

Those who want to say or believe that since Kharjees was not present during the time of Prophet (SAW) than how come Prophet (SAW) could have talked about them, are actually suspecting Prophet-hood of Prophet (SAW) and also accusing Ali (RA) that he invented the word Kharjee by declaring a group of people Kharjees.

Fact is that, Ali (RA) could not have invented something that Prophet (SAW) has not said. Ali (RA) and all Muslim knew then and know today what determines Kharjees, and that fact (that all Muslims who have little knowledge of the subject know) is that:

Once a Muslim do takfeer (called kafir to anyone who claim to be Muslim) then he do not become Kharjees but is only dozakhi (would get treated as Kafir on judgement day) … would go to hell and no other deeds of that person would save him. Though one cannot say that the person who do Takfeer is ‘dog of hell’ (Kharjee).

Anyhow, once a person becomes Takfeeri … then the person has taken first step towards being Kharjee. His next step makes him Kharjee … and that is, persecuting, harming and killing those Muslims he has done Takfeer (Kill in the name of Islam) … and it is this step that makes them Kharjees (use Islam to kill Muslims)… and this step is normally taken by group of Takfeeris.

[Note: persecuting, harming and killing Muslims (those who claim they are Muslim) do not make a person Kharjee … but persecuting, harming and killing Muslims after doing Takfeer (using Islam to persecute and kill) … and using that takfeer as excuse for persecuting, harming and killing Muslims makes a person Kharjee ... and I have written same in all my earlier posts ... that Kharjees do takfeer and use that takfeer to kill Muslims] ..

Taliban and sectarian outfits are killing innocent Muslims, no doubt about that. Only a mentally blocked person would deny that. According to government, most Pakistanis and even from their own claims, these Kharjees kill people after takfeer … that is, TTP and sectarian outfits do takfeer to justify their killing.

Now, if anyone thinks that Taliban and sectarian outfits do not do Takfeeri … as far as I am concerned these people are either dishonest, mentally brainwashed, have closed their mind, their mind and soul is confused or maybe they are part of Kharjees themselves. Thus, I would not argue about that … because mentally it is foolish to bang one’s head on wall.

Regardless … it seems that all agree that murderers should be killed … as that is also according to Islam, that murderer s should be killed unless those murdered killed forgives murderers, and it is duty of state that they get punished accordingly. There is also no doubt that Taliban and sectarian outfits, in group, are promoting and also killing people and thus are murderers.

Hence even though we (Muslims) know that TTP and sectarian outfits are Kharjees … regardless there are no doubts, at least in the eyes of government, most Pakistanis, as well as those who got murdered, that Taliban and sectarian outfits 'as group' are murderers … and thus as group these murderers (Kharjees as far as I and most Muslims are concerned) should be killed to give justice to all they killed.

[khoji]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@Captain1

Okay from this definition they do not fall into the "kharijis" mentioned esp the a) part.

It is just not possible to have 100% similarity between any two groups. Even kharijis themselves had differences.
But the most important trait of all those groups which we now call kharijis, was that they not only did takfir on anyone disagreeing with their brand of Islam but also justified killings on this basis.

[khoji]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@bao_bihari

a)they dont do kuffar on any of them, and b)although most elders of **deobandi **school disagree with them, i have not seen takfir of them, especialy shaikh taqi usmanis who is vocal against many issue including the issue of democracy who TTP says is kuffar. but still they respect these scholars.

and do you know who can be called khariji based on criteria 1. ;)

.. . . Next defination> Please

The definition is still the same. You just need to remove the blinds. :)
See my last post. Neo-kharijis are those who justify killing people after declaring them kafir. It is not being deobandis or barelvis which makes people neo-kharijis.

**Who said deobandis are kharijis? **Although we know that most neo-kharijis IN PAKISTAN are deobandis. In other countries they may belong to other schools.

Talking about deobandis only shows your own guilt. Otherwise I did not even remotely suggest it anywhere.

[khoji]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@diwana

Three steps:

1- I have said being takfiris by itself is not a crime. Everyone does it. No big issue there.

2- Then, justifyng or preaching the killing of others with different ideas, is plain and simple wrong and to be condemned. Period.

Still that does not mean these hate preachers deserve to die. They need to be CAUGHT and TRIED and then be placed behind bars for an exemplary time period.

1. I know doing takfir is not a crime.
2. Justifying, killing of others after doing takfir is wrong. Just like you said. And that is what makes such people neo-kharijis. That is the main point of this thread.

Lastly, whether they deserve to die or not is not under discussion at all. That is another topic.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@khoji

The definition is still the same. You just need to remove blinkers.
See my last post. Neo-kharijis are those who justify killing people after declaring them kafir. It is not being deobandis or barelvis which makes people neo-kharijis.

**Who said all deobandis are kharijis? **Although we know that most neo-kharijis IN PAKISTAN are deobandis. In other countries they may belong to other schools.

Talking about deobandis only shows your own guilt. Otherwise I did not suggest it anywhere.

it is because i know most of the TTP and similar groups belong to deobandis thats why i used their name and scholars name to prove my point that although many diagree with them they still only argue with them.

I know scholars in pakistan who are very vocal against TTP(infact i am attached to a famous scholar who is very vocal on the mistakes that TTP makes in the name of sharia) but still calling them khariji is just plain wrong.infact it is supporting them as when they approach some one who believes they are khawarij then it is easy for them to prove that person wrong and hence make him an ally.

and where did i said that all deobadis are kharijis?

Once a Muslim do takfeer (called kafir to anyone who claim to be Muslim) then he do not become Kharjees but is only dozakhi (would get treated as Kafir on judgement day) … would go to hell and no other deeds of that person would save him. Though one cannot say that the person who do Takfeer is ‘dog of hell’ (Kharjee).

Anyhow, once a person becomes Takfeeri … then the person has taken first step towards being Kharjee. His next step makes him Kharjee … and that is, persecuting, harming and killing those Muslims he has done Takfeer (Kill in the name of Islam) … and it is this step that makes them Kharjees (use Islam to kill Muslims)… and this step is normally taken by group of Takfeeris.

Sahabah:razi: fought with munkareen e zakat and killed them, even thou these people did not made takfeer on sahbah . By this definition who is khariji in that case?

Inshallah i need to start a thread on why/how TTP people are wrong in their sharia interpretation.

[diwana]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@khoji

1. I know doing takfir is not a crime.
2. Justifying, killing of others after doing takfir is wrong. Just like you said. And that is what makes such people neo-kharijis. That is the main point of this thread.

Lastly, whether they deserve to die or not is not under discussion at all. That is another topic.

There was problem making a case of calling a group of people kharijis so now the word neo-kharijis is invented? :)

[kakaballi]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

@Sa1eem

.....Regardless … it seems that all agree that murderers should be killed … as that is also according to Islam, that murderer s should be killed unless those murdered killed forgives murderers, and it is duty of state that they get punished accordingly. There is also no doubt that Taliban and sectarian outfits, in group, are promoting and also killing people and thus are murderers......

This belongs to Pakistan Affairs. Rest to Religion forums :P

[khoji]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@diwana

There was problem making a case of calling a group of people kharijis so now the word neo-kharijis is invented? :)

If neo-khariji is unacceptable then use the term khariji. That is not the point. It doesn't change the fact that Taliban and their fellow extremists follow those traits.

na-haq ke liye ut'thay to shamsheer bhi fitna
shamsheer hi kya, naara e takbeer bhi fitna
- Iqbal

[khoji]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

@kakaballi

This belongs to Pakistan Affairs. Rest to Religion forums :P

Khawarij were not just a religious group but also were politically active. This is no religious discussion because we did not discuss here their theology and whether they were correct in their takfir. Instead we looked at their actions which resulted in violence and death of people. This is what makes it a political discussion.
Similarly, we did not discuss whether Taliban are correct in their takfir or not. Instead we are looking at their violent actions.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

Irrespective of whether talibans are present day kharjees or not. They definitely are on the wrong side of the road. No doubts about that.
Some highlights of their actions irrespective of what they believe in.

1) Indiscriminate killings.
2) Attacking from behind. Not a trait of men
3) Making use of children of others for making human bombs
4) Killing of ullema who speak against their actions
5) Making drone attacks a pretext for their hideous actions. US does the attacks. Can they hurt US for her actions? highly improbable. so they find soft targets (who have nothing to do with drones) and hit them.

so let us not indulge in futile debates and create confusions and accept that talibans and their likes are wrong in their course of actions.

[Afat]

Re: Are taleban today’s kharijiites?

Ehsah Ullah Ehsan their spokesman , said TTP is not behind Church Attack , but the attack were according to the Sharia…!!

I wonder which Sharia …!! …
"[FONT=Book Antiqua]In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine’s Monastery came to Prophet Muhammed and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights, which I reproduce below in its entirety. St. Catherine’s Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai and is the world’s oldest monastery. It possess a huge collection of Christian manuscripts, second only to the Vatican, and is a world heritage site. It also boasts the oldest collection of Christian icons. It is a treasure house of Christian history that has remained safe for 1400 years under Muslim protection.[FONT=Georgia Ref] [TABLE=“width: 87%”]

			[FONT=Book Antiqua]The Promise to St. Catherine: 				[FONT=Book Antiqua]"This is a message from Muhammad ibn  				Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near  				and far, we are with them.
			Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend  				them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold  				out against anything that displeases them. 
			
			No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be  				removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.  				No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or  				to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
			Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant  				and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my  				secure charter against all that they hate. 
			
			No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.  				The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is  				married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her  				approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to  				pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be  				prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their  				covenants.
			
			No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till  				the Last Day (end of the world)."

[FONT=Book Antiqua] The first and the final sentence of the charter are critical. They make the promise eternal and universal. Muhammed asserts that Muslims are with Christians near and far straight away rejecting any future attempts to limit the promise to St. Catherine alone. By ordering Muslims to obey it until the Day of Judgment the charter again undermines any future attempts to revoke the privileges. These rights are inalienable. Muhammed declared Christians, all of them, as his allies and he equated ill treatment of Christians with violating God’s covenant.

A remarkable aspect of the charter is that it imposes no conditions on  	Christians for enjoying its privileges. It is enough that they are  	Christians. They are not required to alter their beliefs, they do not have  	to make any payments and they do not have any obligations. This is a charter  	of rights without any duties!
The document is not a modern human rights treaty but even thought it was  	penned in 628 A.D. it clearly protects the right to property, freedom of  	religion, freedom of work, and security of the person.

I know most readers, must be thinking so what? Well the answer is simple.  	Those who seek to foster discord among Muslims and Christians focus on  	issues that divide and emphasize areas of conflict. But when resources such  	as Muhammad’s promise to Christians is invoked and highlighted it builds  	bridges. It inspires Muslims to rise above communal intolerance and  	engenders good will in Christians who might be nursing fear of Islam or  	Muslims.

When I look at Islamic sources, I find in them unprecedented examples of  	religious tolerance and inclusiveness. They make me want to become a better  	person. I think the capacity to seek good and do good inheres in all of us.  	When we subdue this predisposition towards the good, we deny our fundamental  	humanity. In this holiday season, I hope all of us can find time to look for  	something positive and worthy of appreciation in the values, cultures and  	histories of other peoples." 

Prophet Muhammed’s Promise to Christians

…so that is exactly opposite to the prophet(mpuh) clear injunctions …so they are basically defying the prophet himself …

[EyEsOnSkY]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

^bao log aen ge iski tashrih karne

[diwana]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@khoji

If neo-khariji is unacceptable then use the term khariji. That is not the point. It doesn't change the fact that Taliban and their fellow extremists follow those traits.

na-haq ke liye ut'thay to shamsheer bhi fitna shamsheer hi kya, naara e takbeer bhi fitna - Iqbal

How about stop using hadiths etc. to label people kharijis (or even neo-khrijis). Finish this business altogether, of calling people these negative but vague or controversial terms.

Interestingly, the labels like takfiris, jhadis or khariji etc. are used by some groups of Muslims themselves loosely, to malign others if their ideas are not accepted. You will not see these terms used so much by the media outside Pakistan.

*Just call criminals, criminals if they are proven. *

By the way, just like the hadiths, this Iqbal Shayr can be used by anyone.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

So

Calling TTP khawarij is wrong and can not be proved.

But it is clear to us that

TTP and their opponents both having wrong interpretation of islam and both are killing innocent civilians.Actions like attack on pradelane mosque,mallala and this justification of church incident(if it is from them-as ehsan ullah is no longer their spokes person) are enough to prove that TTP are not haq jamaat and are commiting big mistakes.

On the other hand helping supporting killing of muslims through drone attacks,nato supplies, other agreements, arresting muslims and handing over to usa are bigger sins and should also be condemned equally.

may ALLAH guide this ummat and give us right jamaat who do not bow down to kuffar and also do not kill innocent civilians(regardless of their religion/sect/race).
i do not think there is anything more to add in this thread. will only participate if there is any need.

[Captain1]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@khoji

It is just **not possible to have 100% similarity **between any two groups. Even kharijis themselves had differences. But the most important trait of all those groups which we now call kharijis, was that they not only did takfir on anyone disagreeing with their brand of Islam but also justified killings on this basis.

So lets just extend the brush on them and call them khariji because we hate them :)

@khoji

The definition is still the same. You just need to remove the blinds. :) See my last post. Neo-kharijis are those who justify killing people after declaring them kafir. It is not being deobandis or barelvis which makes people neo-kharijis.

**Who said deobandis are kharijis? **Although we know that most neo-kharijis IN PAKISTAN are deobandis. In other countries they may belong to other schools.

Talking about deobandis only shows your own guilt. Otherwise I did not even remotely suggest it anywhere.

I thought they were "salafis", now they are "deobandis"?

[diwana]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

Hum Bhi Takfiri, Tum Bhi Takfiri
Yeh Bhi Khariji, Woh Bhi Khariji

Taqdeer Pakistan Ki, Hona Kharabi ;)

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

harkaton sey tau aisey hi lagta hai!

A naasoor-e-zamana, a cancer

Don't need paragraphs or chapters to state the obvious

[kchughtai]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@bao_bihari

So

Calling TTP khawarij is wrong and can not be proved.

But it is clear to us that

TTPand their opponents both having wrong interpretation of islam and both are killing innocent civilians.Actions like attack on pradelane mosque,mallala and this justification of church incident(if it is from them-as ehsan ullah is no longer their spokes person) are enough to prove that TTP are not haq jamaat and are commiting big mistakes.

Actions of TTP are mere "big mistakes". ??

[quote]

On the other hand helping supporting killing of muslims through drone attacks,nato supplies, other agreements, arresting muslims and handing over to usa **are bigger sins and should also be condemned equally.

**
[/quote]

Actions of opponents (our state) of TTP are bigger sins. ?? kamal hai.
This is not "equal" condemnation. Is it?

A criminal is a criminal. An outlaw is an outlaw. His being a muslim should NOT make a difference. Let us start calling a spade a spade.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

@kchughtai

Actions of TTP are mere "big mistakes". ??

Actions of opponents (our state) of TTP are bigger sins. ?? kamal hai. This is not "equal" condemnation. Is it?

A criminal is a criminal. An outlaw is an outlaw. His being a muslim should NOT make a difference. Let us start calling a spade a spade.

Both are commit big sins, i wrote that un intentionaly.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[kchughtai]

Re: Are taleban today's kharijiites?

As for those who are of the point of view that it is the "right" of everyone to call and consider anyone kafir, should bring evidence in support of their stance from Quran and sunnah.

No one has the right to call anyone who calls and consider himself a muslim, a kafir. Actually, there is evidence in hadiths that whosoever calls a "kalima reciter" kafir, is inducing kufr on himself.