Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Even TTP who may be are most Illiterate amongst the lot do not say so. Infact people of secular bloc are the ones to be called khawarij as they deem any one not agreeing with them as khawarij/taliban lover/jehadist /hate monger and so on.
Can you share with me any literature of Jaish e muhammad/lashker e taiba/Sipah e sahbah/hizb ul mujahideen/TTP/Alqaeda to support what you have said? and so that i know that you are not just repeating what you have heard from cnn/fox/geo but you actualy know what they believe. i my self being one of those persons who are trying to get idea from both sides rather then making one sided comment know what actualy ar mistakes of these people but these are not what you people suggest.
I believe all members of TTP (and sectarian outfits) do Takfeer and not only that, but they even kill innocent Muslims justifying the killing because of their takfeer, and further, they also create fitna and fisad in Pakistan, thus they are Kharjees without doubt.
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2- All jehadist do not belong to salfist, rather they are not even in majority. In kashmiri groups only laskhr e taiyba is salafi, in TTP majority are deobandis or are ofshoot of jamat e islami/tanzeem e islami afghan taliban are also deobandi and alqaeda majority is not salafi as well.
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You could be right … but regardless, whoever they maybe (Whatever sect they fall into … Shia, Sunni, Deobandi, Salafi … etc), if they are doing takfeer and killing Muslims (or any innocent person) then one cannot call these people Jehadist, rather they are Kharjees and soldiers of Iblis (Lashkar-e-Shaitan).
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Well I know for a certain what people consider shias to be so I’ll leave that. Barelvis are considered to be grave worshipers (i.e. they do shirq hence Mushriqs). These are enough reasons for some people to use as a justification to kill people belonging to these sects (wajib ul qatl). I personally do not support “fatwas of kufr”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThO-9lw8yf0) regardless of sect as it only divides the society and gives rise to fitnas.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
There is a point. Takfeeris and kharjees are not benign. They are influencing innocent Muslims mind and dragging them to hell. Plus these parasites are making life of Muslims in Pakistan hell.
So, to recognize and fight them is not only religious duty but national duty of every Muslim and every Pakistani.
Sorry, sir. This is the same logic Taliban use. Fight those you don't like.
Educating people is great. Fighting crime is not job of every Muslim. There are institutions for that and we must support them if the decide to reduce crime.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Sorry, sir. This is the same logic Taliban use. Fight those you don't like.
Educating people is great. Fighting crime is not job of every Muslim. There are institutions for that and we must support them if the decide to reduce crime.
What logic Talban use?
I would certainly like to know their logic as till now I had impression that Taliban have empty upper chamber and thus have no ability to use logic and that is why they think that they would go to heaven if they would commit suicide killing innocent civilians.
So, please let me know what logic Taliban use … I would appreciate that?
Who told you that fighting crimes is not job of every Muslim? Fact is that, it is duty of every citizen, be they Muslim or non-Muslim, not to be part of crime but they should fight crime in whatever capacity they can. In most countries when a citizen see committing of crime they can even arrest the criminals and that is called ‘citizen arrest’.
As for institutions in Pakistan, we all know how efficient they are in fighting crime (actually, most of them are criminals themselves). Anyhow, in last few days we saw 100s of innocent Pakistanis getting killed by these Kharjee parasites, so keeping quiet and ignoring them is no option.
We have to fight these Kharjee parasites ‘dogs of hell’, if not with our hands then with our words at least.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Brothers, This is what you presume thats others think, all i want to ask is did you ever read whether they say this or not? what is the basis of your opinion, propaganda? and then this does not make one khariji.
Saleem your second point is some what correct, any one killing innnocents of any religion /race is soldier of shaytan and that is why in quran any one who tries to implement any deen other then that of islam is called taghoot , so any one who is killing muslims/innocents is khariji(that makes pakistani army as khariji as well as they are supporting drones).
Ali- Whole fatawas are based on certain aqaedh, so any fatwa says that if some one has these aqaedh then he is kafir according to islam. This is true for fatwa by shias/sunnis/deobandis/barelvis etc. Issue is when some one calls for killing any other sect/group. Please show me such fatwa of some scholar. it is good to research and tell others whether this aqeedah is correct or not, forcefully applying your point of view is wrong, and today only seculrs are worst in forcefully applying thier thought on others.
Ali you have still not given you any thing concrete on what i asked. i dont need what is your impression of certain group, just present what is concrete.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
^ I have given you the fatwa declaring barelvis as kafirs. The groups who are hell bent on purifying the world from kafirs, do you think for them the fatwas for barelvis would be any different?
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
^ I have given you the fatwa declaring barelvis as kafirs. The groups who are hell bent on purifying the world from kafirs, do you think for them the fatwas for barelvis would be any different?
i am not asking for your fatwa ali. :)
Lets stick to "jehadist" to make question more clearer for you. can you share their literature where "everone whho dont agree with thier ideology" is considered kaffir, like you said initialy.
regarding all other fatwa, if you need i can discuss it as separate thread. There is plenty of confusion between people who dont know the story completly and at times they consider some thing not true as universal truth just becuase it appeared in Dawn.
i think you dont have any thing here except some information from dawn/geo/cnn ( or you may google and give me some weak links now) on which most of people have based thier opinion. i just request you all to please dont accept any thing as correct unless you verify it. ( this is quran teaching as well).
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
^ not my fatwa, click on fatwas of kufr in my previous post a YouTube fatwa would come up. I personally think this to be a very serious thing to issue fatwas or kufr and each sect has issued them for the others with the result there is no chance of any rapprochement and discussions.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
^ not my fatwa, click on fatwas of kufr in my previous post a YouTube fatwa would come up. I personally think this to be a very serious thing to issue fatwas or kufr and each sect has issued them for the others with the result there is no chance of any rapprochement and discussions.
Sorry my bad, i just thought you highlighted it. Will see what is in that link.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Brothers, This is what you presume thats others think, all i want to ask is did you ever read whether they say this or not? what is the basis of your opinion, propaganda? and then this does not make one khariji.
Brother, no, it is not presumption. I have read them, heard them, and saw them justifying their beliefs of takfeer (and I can see you are justifying on this post too). Plus, one can look at practically the number of people these Kharjees already killed to know their ideology … as there could be no denial to their Kharjee/Takfeeri beliefs, except by those who are blind.
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Saleem your second point is some what correct, any one killing innnocents of any religion /race is soldier of shaytan and that is why in quran any one who tries to implement any deen other then that of islam is called taghoot , so any one who is killing muslims/innocents is khariji(that makes pakistani army as khariji as well as they are supporting drones).
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I think you did not read me or read me wrong. I wrote that ‘anyone doing Takfeer and killing innocent Muslim (or any innocent person) then they are kharjee soldier of Iblis’.
Killing these kharjees are not killing innocent people but killing ‘Mutafannis’ creators of ‘Fitna and fisad’ on ard (land) … and thus killing them is just like killing ‘dogs of hell’ and sending them to hell where they belong. … Pakistan army cannot be Kharjees (Kharjees kill to spread their Shaitanic religious beliefs … army is not killing to spread their beliefs but army is killing these Kharjees to bring peace and save innocent people from their Kharjee Fitna …thus army is doing great Jihad. You cannot compare what army is doing with killings innocent civilians by Kharjees who are causing fitna and fisad all over the world and especially in Pakistan. Drones is also doing great job by killing these ‘dogs of Hell’.
If you want to see the difference of Islamic preaching and implementing Islam (as Allah directed in Quran)… and compare that with what Taliban, TTP, sectarian outfits and other similar groups are doing then it would become certain that these people are not Muslim nor follower of Quram (and that is obvious, because they are Kharjee ‘dogs of hell’ who cannot be following Quran).
Implementation of deen ‘Islam’ according to Quran is not by force but by peaceful preaching and good words. Only deen of Shaitan can be implemented by force and killing of innocents … and that is what these KHarjees are doing, trying to force their Shaitanic deen on Muslims. These Kharjees do not believe on Quran or teaching of Prophet (SAW), and due to their Fitna and fisad, they certainly deserve quick hell.
Let see what Quran says about preaching and implementing deen Islam (though there are many ayahs regarding the issue, I am quoting few ayahs for those who believe on Quran … even though such instruction from Quran would get rejected by Kharjees, as they are not believers).
6: 104 ... There has come to you enlightenment from your Lord. So whoever will see does so for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever is blind [does harm] against it. And [say], "I am not a guardian over you."
In above ayah … Allah tells Prophet that his job is only to convey message … and not to be guardian over people, as accepting and rejecting message is right of individuals … but for Kharjees/Takfeeris, they damn care about Quran and would not hesitate to kill in implementing ‘religion of devil’ they believe.
Ayah 6:107 … But if Allah had willed, they would not have associated. And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, nor are you a manager over them.
Here again it is clearly mentioned in Quran that if Allah willed there would not have been disbelievers, and thus prophet (SAW) and Muslims (true Muslims) should not worry about implementation but just conveying the message, as Muslims are not guardian or manager over non-beleivers.
Above ayah is clear that those who are trying to be guardian or manager over people to implement any religion are neither Muslim nor their religion is religion of Allah (in other words, force is only used by Kafirs or when religion concern is Islam then only Kharjees would do that)
Ayah 6: 108 … And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.
Here … Allah has clearly forbid Muslims to even insult what non-Muslim worship … but for Kharjees, they not only insult but blow them … as what Taliban did extensively in Afghanistan where they even blown statue of Buddah … and TPP are doing in Pakistan blowing churches … well, since they worship Iblis they even blow places where Allah is worshipped … like Mosques, Imam Bargah, and Muslim religious gatherings..
The way of Muslim preaching Islam is according to what Quran directed them to do (and what I am doing here by quoting Quran):
Ayah 16:125 … Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.
Above ayah clearly says that one should preach Islam with wisdom and good instruction ... with arguments and discussions, keeping one’s own behaviour at its best. Not like what these Kharjee/Takfeeri do … by fighting, killing, blowing themselves and forcing others to follow as their religion is not Islam but it is Shaitanic religion as they worship Shaitan (else they would be following Quran).
Further … again:
Ayah 25:51 … And if We had willed, We could have sent into every city a warner.
Ayah 25:52 … So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur'an a great striving.
In above ayahs Allah has clearly mentioned that if he had willed, he could have sent a Prophet in every city … but then Allah has sent Quran so use that to spread Islamic messages … and do not obey disbelievers (who do not like to follow or quote Quran when preaching or implementing Islam … as we see what Kharjees do, they kill and bomb).
Note: You do not have to support these Kharjees for no reason, else one day you will die too and would be answerable for your support and that could be bad news.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Brother, it seems you are confuse. … I am not using hadith or Quran to kill people (or even promote killing of people) …
I am advocating that anyone who is creating fitna and fisad in Pakistan by killing innocent people should be fought with and should be killed mercilessly (and that is regardless of what is mentioned in hadith).
Anyhow, since some people consider these Fisadis as Muslims they feel reluctant when fighting them … but then these Fisadis are Kharjees and that is what I am showing from Hadith … so that Muslims should not feel reluctant and spare life of these ‘dogs of hell’ considering them Muslim … because even hadith associated to Prophet (SAW) tells Muslim to fight and kill them.
[Note: Muslims hand feel reluctant to kill those they think are Muslim … as from one hadith … when Prophet (SAW) sent a Sahabi to kill a kharjee … that Sahabi found him in Mosque praying in such committed manner that Sahabi felt reluctant to kill the Kharjee and returned … and that is what is happening in Pakistan, that some people feel reluctant in fighting and killing these Kharjees].
And what trial you talk about? There un-forced confession (claiming their killings) and at many places their involvement is obvious to even blind person. Army who are fighting them know them and their crime.
If police and judiciary could not do anything about them than that does not mean these thugs are innocent. Actually, one cannot go for individuals, as these thugs are doing organised crime of killing Pakistani innocent citizens and destroying places. They are fighting army too, and that means, army should kill them and their support on spot.
Anyone who does not believe on Pakistani law, Pakistani constitution and Pakistani judiciary … then what justice they deserve? They are fighting and beheading Pakistani army men, killing innocent civilians, attacking government buildings, and blowing schools, mosques, churches, imam-bargahs, etc … they deserve no talk or chance to live, but should be given quick justice of bullet.
Brother, lagta hay aap parhnay warhnay per Yaqeen nahi rakhtay … It seems you did not read my earlier post carefully, where I gave clear evidences and reason that ‘Kharjees of Najdi hadith’ are Wahabis and as they could not be anyone else other than Wahabis whose movement started in Durya (part of Riyadh) … and important thing is that these ‘Najdi Kharjees’ could not be from outside Arabian Peninsula, as only Arabian Peninsula was under Muslim rule during the time of prophet (SAW) … and from hadth it is clear that people asked prophet (SAW) to pray for ‘our Najd’ that Prophet (SAW) declined saying that ‘horn of Shaitan full of Fitna and Fisad’ would appear from there.
Obviously, Najdi Kharjees could not be from Najaf as Najaf did not existed at the time of Prophet (SAW) … as Najaf, Kufa and surrounding areas were all Muslim garrison that got occupied during Umar (RA) time from Persians and thus came into existence during the Khalafat of Umar (RA).
So, it is impossible that people would ask to pray for Najaf or any place where there was no Muslim living nor it was under Muslim rule (and in hadith, people asked prophet to pray for Najd).
Najaf is at sea-level and not upland … and Najd in Arabic means upland (or highland). Well, language in Iraq during the time of Prophet (SAW) was not Arabic anyhow to call a land there by an Arabic name and that also … with wrong meaning.
In hadith Prophet (SAW) pointed towards East … and Najaf or any part of Iraq is not east of Madina as I mentioned in my earlier post, but only two cities fall directly east of Madina (all ~ 44.6 degree above equator) and these two cities are Riyadh and Abu Dhabi … both were under Muslim rule during the time of Prophet (SAW) … though one (Riyadh) is located on Najd in Arabia that is Riyadh … and other is not … plus, Riyadh is upland (Najdi city) … and Abu Dhabi is lowland (not a Najdi city)
Anyhow, I would mention the hadith people use to claim that Najd is Iraq … and even though it is not possible because no part of Iraq was Muslim area during the time of Prophet (SAW), reading hadith it is clear too.
Hadith (from Sahi Muslim): Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he heard salim b. 'Abdullah b. 'Umar as saying: O people of Iraq, how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit major sins? I heard from my father 'Abdullah b. 'Umar, narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east: Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said:" You killed a person but We relieved you from the grief and tried you with (many a) trial" (xx. 40). Ahmad b. Umar reported this hadith from salim, but he did not make a mention of the words:" I heard". (Sahi Muslim, Book #041](41. The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 6943), Hadith #6943](41. The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 6943))
It can be seen that hadith is mentioned in Iraq by ‘Ibn Fudail’ quoting his father who heard the hadith from Salim who heard the hadith from his father Abdullah bin Umar … and thus Najd mentioned in hadith is nothing to do with Iraq … (for instance, one can quote this hadith in Lahore, Karachi or London … that does not mean, Lahore, Karachi or London would become ‘Najd’).
In hadith only thing is that … ‘Fitna, Fisad and disbief’ would come from ‘Najd’ that is ‘east of Madina’ …
Let see the actual hadith by ‘Salim’ … that was quoted by Ibn Fudail (through his father)…
Here also hadith is from Salim who was quoting his father Abdullah bin umar (RA) … so let see what Abdullah bin Umar (RA) said:
Hadith: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: (The Prophet) said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham and our Yemen.” People said, “Our **najd **as well.” The Prophet again said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham and Yemen.” They said again, “Our najd as well.” On that the Prophet said, “There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there will come out the side of the head of Satan.” (Sahi Bukhari, Book #17](17. Invoking Allah for Rain (Istisqaa) - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 147), Hadith #147](17. Invoking Allah for Rain (Istisqaa) - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 147))
Note: we have various hadith (in Bukhari, Muslim and other hadith books) where Prophet (SAW) pointing towards East (Najd) said the same.
So, you can see actual hadith is about Najd that was Muslim area during the time of Prophet (SAW), is located in the east (east of Madina) and is upland.
We also have to understand that after this hadith, no place would keep their name Najd … but Najd that is in Saudi Arabia is called Najd since ancient time by Arabs … because the place is a plateau that is located ~ 1000 metre above sea-leval (is upland place) hence it is called Najd.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Mere bhai I am not confused and I have been reading your posts as carefully as I could.
First: I meant to write Najd and word Najaf in my post was a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.
Secondly:
What I meant in my post was that you have not come up with the answer when I posted another interpretation of the hadith by some other people where they took Najd as Iraq and not KSA.
All you did is flooded your posts with more of your interpretation of the word Najd. As if that would be sufficient.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Live and let live!!! like muslims have been doing for centuries...
I am all for an intelligent discussion between all sects with an open mind to reach some middle ground.
I dont understand another thing is that why do we have Barelvis and Deobandis (in Sunnis) in Pakistan? Is this another of British policies of divide and rule?
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
In a nutshell, the same hadiths are misintertreted and used by many different groups of Muslims all throughout the history to malign other groups,.......... and this has caused differences among Muslims.
NOW:
The different interpretation by various people BY ITSELF is not so much of a problem,..... but when the hadiths or Quranic Verses are used to condemn each other and more importantly used to justify other people to death penalty,..... the biggest problem and "fitna" develops.
Consistently, you have been citing hadiths after hadiths and verses from Quran to justify your position to malign a group of people and going as far as justifying killing these people regardless they are actually bad people or not. Not a good practice.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Live and let live!!! like muslims have been doing for centuries...
I am all for an intelligent discussion between all sects with an open mind to reach some middle ground.
I dont understand another thing is that why do we have Barelvis and Deobandis (in Sunnis) in Pakistan? Is this another of British policies of divide and rule?
Only way to reach some kind of middle ground is to reduce the hype about loving the 'sect' or beliefs one belongs to, and be tolerant to others view.
Media and educated class has responsibility to hold discussions open for people to read and watch and denounce hateful ideas for various 'sects'.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
What logic Talban use?
I would certainly like to know their logic as till now I had impression that Taliban have empty upper chamber and thus have no ability to use logic and that is why they think that they would go to heaven if they would commit suicide killing innocent civilians.
So, please let me know what logic Taliban use … I would appreciate that?......
Same logic that you are promoting;
Kill the group of people that you think are not on the right path.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Brother, it is surprised that I gave you answer and still you could not get it. So, let me give you in few lines … may be that would be easy to understand.
You are talking about … in Nadji hadith, some took Najd as Iraq and not KSA.
Answer:
I gave the answer that these people claim is absurd … and I also quoted hadith they take to claim that Najd is Iraq and not KSA. Anyhow, I am giving answer as clearly as possible that even a layman could understand … unless one intentionally want to stay ignorant about the issue.
From hadith: Prophet (SAW) prayed for Sham and Yemen … and seeing that, people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Najd … ‘our Najd’
Prophet (SAW) pointed towards east and said that how can he pray for Najd as horn of Satan would come from there.
Above hadith is clear that Najd could not be Iraq … why?
First reason Najd could not be Iraq or any place other than Najd in KSA: During the time of prophet (SAW), no part of Iraq came under Muslim rule neither there were Muslim living in Iraq. … So, people could not have asked prophet (SAW) to pray for Iraq that was a land under Persian rule (For Muslims … Iraq then was same as India, Pakistan, England, France, USA, or whatever). … Since Muslims asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Najd … calling the area ‘our Najd’ means that the area was under Muslim rule where Muslims were living … check the map below … dark brown is the area that was under Muslim rule at the time of Prophet (SAW).
Shaam of the time covers all of Jordan and some part of northern Arabia, so praying for Shaam was OK. All of Yemen was under Muslim rule, so praying for Yemen was also fine. Same way Najd … that is plateau in central Arabia was under Muslim rule … and that is why people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for it.
Dark brown is the area that came under Muslim rule during Prophet (SAW) time … and thus Najd in hadith has to be in this area … as in Hadith, people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for ‘our Najd’ and no Muslim could have asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for area that was not under Muslim rule and where Muslims were not living (at the time) .. claiming that area as ‘Our Najd’ … especially when prophet (SAW) was praying for Shaam (lower part of Jordan and North-west Arabia) … and Yeman … both Muslim area at the time.
Second reason Najd could not be Iraq or any place other than Najd in KSA: Najd is Arabic word meaning upland. At the time of prophet (SAW), language of Iraq was not Arabic so they could not have such name for a place in Iraq.
Third reason Najd could not be Iraq or any place other than Najd in KSA: Najd means Upland and that is why Najd in Arabia is given that name … since much before Prophet (SAW) … Plateau that is called Najd is 1000 meter above sea level. Most of Iraq is at sea level, so it cannot have name najd even if language in Iraq was Arabic and it had Muslim rule with Muslims living there.
Fourth reason Najd could not be Iraq or any place other than Najd in KSA: Prophet (SAW) being in Madina, pointed towards East. Iraq is not east of Madina rather it is north of Madina (or North-East). … On the other hand, only 2 meaningful cities in the world is exactly East of Madina … falling on same line of latitude that is ~ 24.5 degree north of Equator.
So, all above is clear proof that Najd mentioned in Hadith could not be Iraq but it is Riyadh from where Wahabism started.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Brother, there is no controversy regarding 'Najdi hadith'. At least I have never came up with any logical reason or explanation by anyone claiming that 'Najd is in Iraq' or 'any place other than Najd in central Arabia'.
Anyhow whoever consider Najd as a place different from Najd in central Arabia, then they should come up with logical reasons and explanations ... and apply that reasons and explanations on hadith to prove their point.
For me ... I am as clear that Najd mentioned in Najdi hadith is area around Riyadh ... just like I am clear that Lahore where Thug Nawaz lives, is in Punjab-Pakistan.
… I am not using hadith or Quran to kill people (or even promote killing of people) …