Are taleban today's kharijiites?

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Dont get me started on this. So on which pretext some groups attack Shias and barelvis? The jehadi groups we have got now are deobandis with a salafi/wahhabi tinge due to their affiliation with salafist organizations like AQ.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

for once get started, make a separate thread and lets see how much you people know about the subject.

i would appreciate links to original text rather then some copy pastes from some website.(i know how many times these things are misquoted)

[QUOTE]
As far as I am concerned I think Kharijis are those who take the liberty of declaring every one other than them as kafirs/murtads/mushriqs and hence worthy of death. And those who create fitna in the ummah, so it includes all the jehadists amongst our midst. Unfortunately all jehadists belong to salafists, but I wouldn't take the liberty to put all salafists in this bracket.

[/QUOTE]

Please prove this, which jehadist group consider every one other then themselves as kaffirs? Please dont give any shadh (unique ) opinion of any scholar whom others amongst his group dont suscribe to( i am talking about ideology of any group here).

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Please answer the reasons for attacks on Shias and Sufi shrines please and the groups responsible.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Brother i have just commented on what you said. i asked you a question, once you have answered then you can ask me counter question.

You think that jehadist /khawarij(in your opinion) consider every one else who do not subscribe to their idea as kaffir,all i want you is to prove that.

if you are not prepared, take your time but just dont try to divert the question. shukran

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Then the best solution is to catch those who actually kill people who some salafis may be considering murtids/kafirs/mushriks.

Why condemn or blame all salafis?

Main problem is that criminals don't get caught and blame goes to a whole group of people.

First catch those who maybe wrong doers, then prove them being criminals, then punish them.

At least people should admit that takfiris are a lot but they may still be peaceful..just like a lot of Muslims.... and actual criminals are few.

It is the responsibility of the state to do something about it.

Because of lack of security and utter laziness, people keep dying and criminals are so brave that they keep admitting the responsibility of crime and nothing happens to them.

"Naa maloom" Afraad (Unknown people) do the acts, and blame goes to a group of people and a country or two. Not fair.

Once the area SHO or Police chief is sacked from the job and even punished for not catching the criminals, you might see the difference. :)

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

And still the country is called “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”.
Just Who Is Not A Kafir? | Amir Mir

War On The Kafirs

*The broad Sunni-Shia division does not explain all of it

  • Most Sunnis adhere to the Hanafi school of jurisprudence. Only 5 per cent of the country’s population belongs to the Ahle Hadith sect or Wahabis.

  • The Sunnis are subdivided into the Barelvi and Deobandi schools of thought

  • The Deobandis and Wahabis consider the Barelvis as kafir, because they visit the shrines of saints, offer prayers, believe music, poetry and dance can lead to god

  • Barelvis constitute 60 per cent of the population. Deobandis and Wahabis together account for 20 per cent

  • Another 15 per cent are Shias, again considered kafir and subjected to repeated attacks

  • Since 2000, the Sunni-Shia conflict has claimed 5,000 lives

  • Others considered kafir are the religious minorities—Christians, Ismailis, Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, Ahmadias, etc, who account for 5 per cent of the population

  • So, 20 per cent of the population effectively considers the remaining 80 per cent as kafir

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

And this is even the worlds population ratio as well today and throughout the history - so did Allah create heaven only for the 20% or even less of the humans?

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

No, it is not my right ... it is right of Allah and since I would not like to burn in the lowest part of hell forever with Takfeeries/kharjees, I would not do that.

[quote]
On the other hand you should accept (if not agree to) others calling you (not personally) also kafir/murtid/mushrik if they find a reason. :)
[/quote]

Anyone who would do takfeer on Muslim (any person who declare that he/she is Muslim) then to call that person Kafir or Kharjee is not takfeer (just like it is not takfir to call a person kafir who declares that he/she is not Muslim), because by assuming right of Allah that person becomes kafir (just like a declared kafir).

[quote]
It is when you add the justification for their death when problem may arise, since in turn you (again not personally) may be considered someone who deserves to die.
[/quote]

Death is not justified for any peaceful citizen (even kuffars) whatever they believe, as long as their belief is with them ... but once they start doing takfeeris and start creating fitna and fisad ... then it is justified to kill them so that world becomes peaceful and safe from their fitna and fisad.

Takfeeris are people who call a person Kafir against that person’s confession or declaration that he/she is Muslim. Those who do Takfeer can be called Kafir (or Kharjees) so there is no takfeer on so-called Muslims who are Takferies (or Kharjees) … just like there is no takfeer on Kuffars (who confess or declare that they are not Muslim).

[quote]
Salafis in general are those who do follow strict religious teaching and they may hold other unacceptable beliefs as others including you feel, but as long as they are peaceful, they should not be condemned to death, is the essence of my argument.
[/quote]

I agree with whatever you wrote above ... that as long as they stay with their beliefs and practice without interfering with Muslims (these people could have educated discussion with Muslims, no problem) and as long as they do not start doing takfeer ... and creating fitna and fisad ... they have every right to live and practice their religion peaceful (however deviant their beliefs maybe for other Muslims).

[quote]
Saleem bhai, you will never find me supprting those who commit crimes against humanity regarldless of which group or area they belong to.

The problem is that calling someone kharijis doesn't stop there, people start thinking that they deserve to die even if they have not committed any crime.
[/quote]

According to no one ... deobandi, wahabi, Salafi = Kharjees ...

Kharjees are only those who do takfeer ... and worse of Kharjees are those who not only do takfeer but use that takfeer to kill and create mayhem (become cause of fitna and fisad) ... and it is these people who Muslims should fight and kill.

[quote]
No one knows if Qayamat is near and no one can certainly know who kharijis are even if one reads the hadiths.

These hadiths are controversial in their interpretations and content at best.

Danger is that everyone can interpret hadiths his or her own way and can start hating any group of people.

Judging people and using hadiths to support hateful judgements is plain and simple wrong.
[/quote]

Here you are wrong ... Hadith (Najdi Hadith) is crystal clear with no chance of misinterpretation. It is clear that Najdi hadith is about Wahabi fitna that started in and around Riyadh.

Here is why: I would only go into location ... though one can go into traits and that also fits in with Wahabis and present day Kharjees creating fitna and fisad amongst Muslims.

1: People asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Najd … and Prophet (SAW) said that horn of Shaitan would rise from Najd and that it is place of fitna and fisad … that means Najd at the time of Prophet (SAW) was Muslim land … otherwise people could not have asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Najd … so it could not be anywhere outside Arabian peninsula (as during the time of Prophet (SAW), only Arabian Peninsula came under Muslim rule and most in this area accepted Islam (willingly or unwillingly).

[Iraq nor any part of Iraq was under Muslim rule during the time of Prophet (SAW) … neither people there were Muslim … so people could not ask Prophet (SAW) to pray for Iraq or any part of Iraq].

2: Najd is Arabic word and it means upland (or highland) … Najd (Saudi Arabia) is a plateau that is around 1000 metre above sea leave … all other places in Arabia is below that level … hence the name Najd. Thus Najd (Arabic word for upland) cannot be outside Arabic speaking area and at the time of prophet (SAW) Arabic was only language of Arabian Peninsula that all came under Muslim rule during the lifetime of prophet (SAW). Iraq or any other area cannot have Najd as at the time of prophet (SAW) language spoken in those areas was not Arabic.

3: Najd lies east of Hijaz … and in various hadith referring about horn of Shaitan and rise of ‘fitna and fisad’ … Prophet (SAW) pointed towards east.

Surprisingly there are only two worthwhile cities in the world that is exactly east of Madina and they are Abu Dhabi and Riyadh … with one difference, that is, only Riyadh is located at Najd.

Madina is 44.6 degree north of equator … and that is same for Riyadh and Abu Dahbi … Madina is at around 600 metre above sea-level … Riyadh is also at around 600 metre above sea level … anyhow, Riyadh is located on plateau of Najd that is around 1000 metre above sea level (hence it is named Najd or upland … or highland … by Arabs)

Note: Iraq is a lowland country that is north-east of Madina … not upland (Najd). Iraq is also not east of Madina (Iraq is north-east of Madina)… plus Iraq was under Persian rule at the time of Prophet (SAW) so there was no chance that Muslims would have asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Iraq.

Most of Southern Iraq (including Kufa) was not even there during the time of Prophet (SAW). Kufa was established by Muslims as army garrison fighting Persian army during the time of Umar (RA) … knowing all that, it is impossible to even have any controversy about hadith or that hadith talks about Iraq.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

I do not agree with this though as this is no different to those people are at the moment killing people labeling them kafirs.

Only state can punish people according to its laws, when people start killing each other (based upon faith and other reasons) then it is called a fitna.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Not all Deobandis, I dont have much experience with Wahabis, consider Barelvies Kafir.

Also a lot of Barelvis consider Deobandis as Kafir too.

I have been to shrines and its not that music, poetry and dance that is the main issue but the fact that so many will kneel to them yet I bet they will rarely have knelt down to face Mecca and prayed.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

I think you misunderstood my post.

In my post I did not wrote that individuals should start killing people doing 'takfeer' and starting 'fitna and fisad' ... as if individuals would take that task then that would be fitna itself.

What I wrote is that people who do 'takfeer' and create 'fitna and fisad' should be fought with and should be killed. Obviously, only State can do that ... or people fighting in self-defence.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Minority report - DAWN.COM

A FEW months ago, somebody emailed me a chilling audio clip of a conversation between a journalist and a Pakistani Taliban.

When the interviewer reminded the terrorist that he was a Muslim too, and recited the kalima to prove it, he was told bluntly that the Taliban did not view anybody who did not subscribe to their extreme vision as believers.

When the Taliban was reminded that the founder of Pakistan was a peaceful, tolerant man, he replied that Jinnah had ‘Ali’ in his name, and so must be a Shia. “We do not accept the Shia as Muslims,” he insisted.

From considering the Shia to be non-Muslims, it seems there is only a short step to declaring them wajib-ul-qatal, or deserving of death, preferably by violent means.

Indeed, this extreme view has been around for three decades in Pakistan. The emergence of the Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan in the 1980s and later the Lashkar-i-Jhangvi (LJ) saw the beginnings of sectarian bloodshed.

Of course, Shia-Sunni strife is nothing new in Muslim history. From virtually the earliest period of Islam, conflicting claims over the Caliphate have led to the bitter divide that persists to this day. Many of the current conflicts within the Islamic world have their roots in this ancient schism.

The ongoing slaughter of Hazara Shias in Pakistan is yet another reminder of the inhuman nature of extremism. While individual Shias have been targeted for years, the recent mass killings of ethnic Hazaras is probably happening because they can be so easily identified. According to a Hazara website, 700 of the community have been killed in recent years without a single terrorist being brought to justice.

An article ‘Who kills Hazaras in Pakistan and why’ on the webzine Outlookafghanistan.net states:

“Since the declaration of religious extremists as ‘strategic assets’ by the ruling elites of Pakistan, the religious militant groups like Lashkar-i-Jhangvi and the Taliban have been given free hands [sic] to do anything they like.”

The cold-blooded massacres of Shias in Kohistan and Chilas seem to indicate that either the local law-enforcement agencies were asleep or complicit. Gilgit’s lockdown and the evacuation of foreign tourists showed the world yet again what an anarchic and violent place Pakistan has become.

In a recent army-led operation, several of the alleged extremist killers have been arrested, and Shia and Sunni mosques in Gilgit sealed to forestall further tension. But the real test will come when these terrorists are brought to trial: thus far, the record of our judiciary in sentencing such criminals has not been very reassuring.

More often than not, they have been released on bail, or let off on grounds of insufficient evidence. Judges have been reluctant to grasp that witnesses are too scared to come forward. Repeated postponement of hearings also deters people from giving evidence.

Apart from the LJ and the SSP’s anti-Shia violence, the Jundullah is a latecomer to Pakistan’s sectarian slaughter.

Understandably, hundreds of Hazaras have fled, many to Australia. They are only the latest wave of persecuted Pakistanis seeking sanctuary in safer places. Those Christians, Hindus and Ahmadis who could have already left the country Jinnah saw as one where they would have equal rights.

Steadily, the space for anybody not hewing to the mainstream school of Islam is shrinking. Indeed, the Taliban spokesman I quoted earlier was clear that all those who did not actively oppose the state were non-Muslim and therefore wajib-ul-qatal. This is the inexorable logic of the takfiri philosophy that underpins the global jihad: anybody can be dubbed a non-Muslim and thus a target.

Sadly, the response to all this violence among the Pakistani ruling elites remains muted. There is little of the anger directed towards the Americans for the drone attacks that have killed far fewer innocent people than sectarian terror has. And yet, the media, the political class, and civil society seem oddly disconnected with the fate of our unfortunate minorities.

Those Pakistanis who are worried about where their country is headed would do well to check out Minorities Concerns of Pakistan, a web-based newsletter that voices the fears and woes of Christians, Hindus and Ahmadis. Each time I do, I feel ashamed of what we are doing to our fellow citizens.

But Pakistan is not alone in this sectarian madness. Across large swathes of the Islamic world, non-Muslims are being targeted with increasing frequency and ferocity. More than half of Iraq’s Christian population of around 1.4 million has fled in the face of extremist violence.

The ancient Egyptian Coptic community are regularly targeted by the country’s Salafi fundamentalists. Nigeria has witnessed a wave of church bombings from the Boko Haram anti-education Islamist movement.

And yet Muslims demand ever-increasing freedom to pray and spread their faith in the West. Whenever permission to build yet another mosque is denied, authorities are blamed of Islamophobia. Any real or imagined slur against symbols of Islam results in demonstrations across the Islamic world. Yet there is silence in the West over the treatment of minorities in Muslim countries.

The recent edition of Minorities Concerns of Pakistan carried a moving article about the difficulties Christians face every day in dealing with Muslims. Apparently, they are forever being asked to convert to Islam, and made conscious they are living in Pakistan on sufferance. If Muslims in the West were subjected to this kind of rudeness, there would be protest demonstrations that would include western liberals.

But we in Pakistan have become so hardened to the plight of Shias and non-Muslims that we take their daily suffering for granted. However, we should remember that for the Taliban, we are all wajib-ul-qatal.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

To each their own, but I do agree there is this mentality of ignoring basic components of deen by hiding behind these rituals.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

You are right that some ignorant Barelvis consider Deobandis as kafir ... though most do not... they only consider Deobandis as deviant (and gustakh-e-Rasul-Allah-SAW).

Anyhow, it is not about Deobandis or Berelvis or even Wahabis ... it is about some people who do Takfeer and then because of theri takfeeri beliefs kill innocent Muslims ... and it is these Takfeeris who are creating fitna and fisad amongst Muslims ... whoever they maybe ... should be fought with and should be killed.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Yes or no question.

Do you consider the people you call "Takfeeries/kharjees" as Muslims?

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

not all barelvis kneel to the graves too.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Theoretically, Takfeeris/kharjees are Muslim. If they were not considered Muslim then one could not call them Takfeeri or Kharjee. Kafirs cannot be called Takfeeri/Kharjee.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

i just hope that you do not consider this as prove on which you base your opinion.

Mind answering what i asked?

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

Then, there's no point for all this debate anyways. Make things simpler.

There's a country called Pakistan. If you like to live in this country, you need to adhere to the law of the land. If you don't you would be punished. Thank you.

Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban

There is a point. Takfeeris and kharjees are not benign. They are influencing innocent Muslims mind and dragging them to hell. Plus these parasites are making life of Muslims in Pakistan hell.

So, to recognize and fight them is not only religious duty but national duty of every Muslim and every Pakistani.