Are Sikhs Hindus in Disguise??

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

arai,

    you say that theirs no allah/god/ wahe guru  but what if their is...........its a fifty fifty chance. If you dont believe in god then you may end up in hell anyway but if you spend your life believing then wont you increase your chance of going to paradise to meet god to 100%..........you dont have anyhting to lose to believe in god but you MIGHT lose if you dont.............catch my drift?

also if god didnt create us who did??

i would like to hear this from you interesting views.

82

Well. That's a common statement.

50% Chance God may exist, so why not follow God?

Well, for that 50% chance. To see myself devote my life to a fictional character. Then, support corrupted gurudwara/mosque/church's. To live life with the religious restrictions (clothing, food, practices). Simply with religion, you can't live life fully. You spend most of your time either praying or worshipping something that is not there. Living life as an Atheist is the best, and is the only way to live your life the fullest. We only live once, never again, we're done on this Earth after that.

Now, I really don't think it's a 50% chance, I think it's more of a 75% chance that God does NOT exist. because, Science contributes the other 25% to prove God doesn't exist in rational thinking.

So for 75% to live my life without restrictions, governments, wasting time on worships, rituals, celebrations for a fictional character.

Honestly, and with no offense. Worshipping God to me seems as ridiculous as worshipping the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. There is just as much evidence of Santa Clause's existence as there is for God, and everyone knows very well that Santa Clause is a made up story.

Consider this.

Hypothetical.

If I wrote a book right now, about how people should live, what their daily customs should be, how they should practice life, and etc. Should I expect, that 2000 years later someone should read this book, take it serioulsy and say that I am indeed DIVINE?

This is exactly what all these religions are. They're simply books made to confuse people and the authors were brilliant and doing such a thing. And in many rational theories, these books were designed so that certain people could maintain power over the people, ie; Kings, Priests, etc. Because, who would people fear more? A guy holding a stick, or a fictional character in the sky who is larger than life and has the power to torture you for all eternity? And back then, with lack of Science and everything. It was easy to convince people of such ridiculous things.

Galileo is an example of one of the first Atheists to go against the Church for corruption, and for misleading Science and the Renassaince.

Arai

p.s. I am constructing a website, dedicated for the promotion and enhancement of Atheism in North America, especially to abolish religious practices in public schools were non-members of the faith are pressured into participating.

It will be online soon, it is meant to be serious with a comedic tone. I hope it will be of interest to anyone to understand why Atheists are Atheists.

83

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
**
If I wrote a book right now, about how people should live, what their daily customs should be, how they should practice life, and etc. Should I expect, that 2000 years later someone should read this book, take it serioulsy and say that I am indeed DIVINE?

This is exactly what all these religions are. They're simply books made to confuse people and the authors were brilliant and doing such a thing.
**
[/quote]

Arai, is it right to really make such an extended generalization? Do you not think that each religion should be considered fairly on its own terms?

They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

84

That was a good post, Arai, and a lot of things you said make sense from the viewpoint of an atheist.

At the same time, as a religious person myself, I think there is also something to be said for religion - any religion.

The points you make about religion being used as a tool used to control people are of course true to a large extent. But my counter to that would be that you are really talking about the societal aspects of religion there. In my opinion, all religions have two components - a fundamental core belief in divinity and the outer shell compoised of societal influences. The fundamental core of all religions is the same - its the basic need humans have to belive in something that is more powerful than them and the need to belieive that there is a grander plan that they are all part of. It is this instinctual need that has caused the birth of all religions. Organized religion just builds on this basic belief and provides the outer layer based on societal influences that are a function of the social needs of that time. So the religious books you talk about are just the societal part of religion. And sure, in every religion, the case can be made that people at different times have used religion to control the masses. But to blame religion for that would be similar to blaming science for the atom bomb. Its not the fault of religion that its so powerful a tool, its the fault of the people who misuse this tool.

So if you strip away all these "societal influences", you will still be left with this instinctual belief that all humans have from birth. In the case of the atheist, this belief over time has been suppressed / eliminated and replaced with a belief in something else- science, probability etc. But really, if you forget the societal influences of religion for a second, are the two that different? You believe that science explains everything, I believe that science is the mechanism that God uses to make things happen. Your belief gives you a structure to live your life by, and mine serves me well by giving me a framework to live by. I would argue that each of us is benefiting from our particular beliefs.

The key of course, is the point you made at the end - to live and let live. And that is where the societal influences of all religions sometimes get carried away. Hence I agree fully with your idea of separating religion from schools etc. All said and done, it is a deeply personal thing - a belief system that should not be forced on anyone.

Hope all of this makes some sense.

85

Arai, i think u should start another thread on how atheism is good and how all those who believe in god will go to hell.

86

Niner. I understand what you mean by the two distinctions in religion. But, I would have to disagree, I in my own belief honestly feel nothing is beyond this Universe, nor does any creature posses super-natural powers.

What I do respect more of people who are religious, are the ones who practice religion without reading a book. A simple faith in "I believe in God/Allah/Wahe-Guru/Ram", is much more explanatory in "I believe in God, because So and So said, and this book says".

How can you believe something that someone else says or wrote, and devote your life to the words of a primitive and ancient man?

If I were to believe in religion. I would want SOLID evidence, with my OWN experience and not hear-say or experience of others, if I want to follow it. I don't want to follow something that happened in SOMEONE ELSE's experience. That is like, saying I should follow Aliens, because some people in mid-west America say they were abducted by Aliens. If I want to believe in Aliens, or God for that matter, and if God is all-powerful, he should present himself to all people all the time. Why is this all-powerful/might God, want faith in him, when he can't provide solid evidence of his own existence to the people.

Honestly, I can tell you this clearly. If God were to show himself ONCE too me, I would follow whatever religion he is a God of. Simple is that. You know, the funny thing is, a fellow persian friend of mine (he's Muslim), said to me in Grade 9 (several years back), when we did a project on religion that he can convince me there's Allah, and said he will only convince me, unless I'm willing to convert when I am convinced. I agreed, and I am still awaiting for him to prove it to me!!

It's been 7 years now.

Arai

87

Ullu.

Atheists don't believe any person will goto Heaven or Hell.

Atheists believe, you're life and body will just be decomposed in other forms of energy (Law of Conservation of Energy).

The Human is electrically made up of Resonant frequency, Electromagnetic Frequency, Nerve/Electrical Impulses.

Physically, compounds of various elements of the Earth which are found on the periodic table of course. The Brain is a bio-electric organism, DNA is also a physical structure of your body, made in random, with heridtary influence.

In conjuction with your electrical self, and your physical self, this is what creates your thoughts and your so called 'souls'. Your memory itself, is just a record of the positions of your neuron cells. Hence, when people have a large blow to their head, they get a temporary form of amneisa, due to their misalignment of the neural network (cells).

In death (natural) (many scholarly theories). Death is the form, when at FIRST your neuron cells deplete rapidly (which alters the neural network), and this happens with the help of old-age, poor diet, therefore your memory becomes unstable, even the memory(commands, pre-written instructions) on operating bodly functions becomes unstable. Due to that, in essence your mind forgets how to maintain your heart beat and breathing pattern. Once your heart is gone, and breathing stops, it goes from there. Your brain cannot function properly and can't revive your systems and thus you die, your red/white cells deplete, blood ceases to flow and you're dead!!

This is how, many people are "alive" when they're brain dead. They're neural network is completely gone, and machines just help the flow of blood circulate (inducing and reducing pressure) and machines help maintain breathing.

When we remember something from the past, we refer to the allignment of our cells in our head we had during that experience, and it recreates it, and that is how we remember.

ex: How many times have you heard a song that reminded you of a certain date or event?

ex: How many times have you smelt a fragance and could remember a time, or remember someone because of it? It's all anagalous.

Your brain does the same when you try to remember, it tries to correspond the memory with the allignment of your neural cells, in this your neural cells hence becomes the memory.

If we were essentially to COPY someone else's neural alignment(s), we could in theory have their memories/intelligence.

So, when you think that after you die you're Neural network alignment will be going to Hell or Heaven, it does sound kind of funny.

Arai

88

arai,

  if god didnt create us then did science create us?

whats your view on this....do you believe in the big bang theory?

also dont you think that because of religion we have morals..if no religion then arabs would still be commiting murder of their daughters and shit like that.

you got to give credit where credit is due.

89

Are you telling me that if you weren't a muslim, that you would be some pathological child molestor/rapist/murderer? You really feel that without religions that you're not capable of controlling yourself?

Wow, may "God" help you.

Morals, are society's way of distinguishing what is right, and what is taboo. You don't need to follow a religion to have morals.

Because, I'm an atheist. I strongly feel committed to help the oppressed, to help poor/unwealthy, and to be educated, to realize murder, theft is wrong. I don't need any book to tell me this.

Yes, I believe Science is a tool that is the ONLY TOOL that will help us realize our origins, and essentially our future. No Holy book can tell us this. and upto so far, Science has told us, that just random spontaneous events caused the Universe, and that our lives, and the universe is based on universal laws of physics.

If an apple falls from a tree, you will assume it will fall down, because every other day it always falls down. This is what science does, it NEVER changes, Science is based on re-duplicating results.

But, if someday that apple were not to fall down, but fall UP. Then, you can convince me the possibility of God. When the laws of physics are broken.

Physics is consistent and NEVER biased, you don't need to believe in physics to affect you, nor do you have to be a scientist, and physics doesn't treat one person different than other, regardless of anything, even morals.

Arai

90

sikhs are nothing but foolish people who are always used by the clever hindus and to me they are just an sword arm of hindus

91

I guess they're just as foolish as the Palestinians then right?

Same situation is happening there.

Arai

92

arai,

      if their wasnt any religions in the world their would be no morals. If you look at history nearly all communities commited theft, murder etc but when prophets came and spread the word of god those comunities gave up their evil acts just like the example of the arabs before islam.

you asked if their was no religion if i would be any of the above, if i was an atheist i would be a murderer and kill all the people i dont like............but religion has given me aims and objectives in life.

why dont atheists just commit all evil acts...afterall they are just a bunch of neurons and wont have to answer to anyone so isnt it better for them to satisfy their desires.....you are supposed to be here on holiday...not to folow rules made by prophets?

also, dont you find that abrahamical religions is consistent, every prophet that came gave the same message of the one god and they all outlawed evil acts of the atheists and polytheists.

you seem to be a science man, perhaps you should read the science in the quran. Its amazing that how muhammad pbuh wrote about science but he was no scientist. Theirs stuff in quran written 1400 years ago that scientists have only found out recently.

one last point: i dont see the connection between palestinians and sikhs...please explain.

thanks for your time

93

Palestinians fighting for a homeland in their native country.

Sikhs fighting for a homeland in their native country.

No connection? If you don't see the connection there, must mean you're missing some neural connections in your head.

Atheists committing murder, theft. You're truly a theistic moron.

Anyone from any religion any belief is capable of committing anything. Tons of Muslims are in jail, explain that to me. Many of them in for theft especially. What is the purpose of execution in Islamic states if Muslims aren't committing crimes, especially henious ones?

Muslims attack Indeonesian Christians, and kill many of them.

Muslims kill innocent Sikhs in Kashmir (36 of them). Just the few recent events.

Let me see, I can go on forever...

In the name of religion, you theists kill, maim, rape, and oppress people. This is what RELIGION does to the world. It is primarily the ONLY CAUSE of ANY WAR in the world. You believe in something that provokes hatred and fight (all religions), and you tell me an Atheist is bad?

Give me one war, or fanatical incident that you know of that an Atheist was responsible for?

Atheism is the only true guidance to keep people away from believing in fictional characters, and reading trash to corrupt their mind, and believe they will be rewarded for it.

You're really only in religion, for the sake of getting your rewards.

You're the TRUE hypocrite, you say religion gives you moral, you're only keeping these morals for an eternal reward.

I can keep my morals, and not need a reward for it, and I can keep my morals and my beliefs regardless of who says I will goto Hell because I haven't corrupted my mind as they have.

The only Hell I believe in, is a place in which I am sorrounded by a bunch of theists forcing their theistic and supernatural B.S on me, and like all theists getting converted into the B.S.

Arai.

Note: for all. I used the term THEIST, that regards to ALL RELIGIONS and not directed to Islam only.

Although, I should have thrown in POLYTHEIST also, for the Hindu's. But, when I say Theist, I mean for any religion who believes in God(s).

94

arai bro,

theirs no need to get personal....i just want to have a friendly discussion and already you are calling me bad names like "moron".

thansk for pointing out the connection between palestinians and sikhs.

abt the massacre of 36 sikhs then wasnt that commited by hindus??...just like the sikhs in kashmir have said.

its true that alot of muslims do bad stuff but if proper islam is followed their is only peace in the world.Look at countries like saudi arabia and libya where the crime rates for murder and stuff is near zero % thanks to islam.

alot of wars in the world are caused by greed for money and power and religion only used as an excuse. In rwanda the massacres were cos of social class ie tutsis and hutus.Hitler killed gypsies and disabled people.....was that cos of religion?.....the list can go on forever.

america is a majority atheist country and look at their great morals.....take away all morals that religion gave and america is one HELL of a place. Compare a country like saudi arabia to america..you cant make a comparison.

Athesist ruling the world is worse than for religious dudes ruling the world. The people who decide on fate of presidents are atheists and presidents of western countries believe in god to get more votes...so basically in usa if a rape is commited every three seconds then its cos of atheists dont implement islamic law. In fact the reason why 80% of oppression is commited against muslims is because of majority atheist countries like america and uk.

atheists only know the meaning of the word morals because of religion and thanks to religion. Look back at history as the example i gave you of arabs....muhammad pbuh gave the arabs values, aims and objectives.

give credit where credit is due.

95

America is an atheist country?

My friend, you're totally wrong.

Lets begin by looking at the constitution of America, which calls onto God the Christian God SEVERAL times.

In court in America, you place your hand on the HOLY BIBLE before testifying.

You tell me this is an Atheist country and tell me Americans are atheists? My friend, this proves you are a moron, and I do need to get personal with this, since you just said America and the UK was atheist.

How could you even begin to think America as being Atheist.

My friend, don't call all the people you hate as Atheists. You proved yourself of not knowing even what an Atheist is. I am assuming your definition of Atheist is someone who is 'democratic' or 'american'.

Atheist is someone who simply doesn't believe in this fictional character called "God".

America does believe in God. It yaps God around all the time, God saved America in the War. as they say, God saved the KING in the UK and GOD saved the Queen in the UK. Tell me, why the hell would an ATHEIST country, give credit to this fictional character for helping their country.

You are totally lost.

And, I know you know that Atheists have done nothing negative in the world. That's why you have to stoop to the level of insulting Atheism as being American.

arai

96

[This message has been edited by sufimaster (edited November 07, 2000).]

97

how many americans believe in god, how many brits believe in god?............very few, so its obvious that they are majority atheists country.......your arguments fall to pieces, atheists are immoral.

north korean leader massacres his own people and he is an atheist, theirs no rules for him to follow...no rules from religion means atheist can do what they want as they have no objective only to satisfy their desires which is rape every three second in america which UN figure say.

if athesist rule the world then immorality everywhere, they dont have morals only some of them steal morals from religion.

majority atheist country of usa very immoral cos atheist law which allow adultery, fornication, which no religion allow..they atheist worst than animals from jungle.

you are a retard with your atheistic values of democracy. Ask the poverty stricken blacks on the street if usa is democratic...........They will whip your A$$.

98

You once again proved yourself wrong.

America as being an Atheist country? That is such a ridiculous claim. America tries it's best to abolish religion, since America is based on Jewish Capitalism. Atheism can never truly work in a democratic society. It can only work in a communistic society. America can never be a an Atheist country, if it's not communistic. America hates the concept of communism, thus Atheism would be rejected. Since, Atheism is really the religion of Communism if you may. Communism can't work without Atheism.

Having said that, America is not ATHEIST. All of those Americans, and majority of Americans are believers. You think if it was an Atheist country, that the people of America would VOTE for an Atheist? They would have the same idiotic opinions such as yourself, as Atheists being immoral.

Now, as for you being a theist, and claiming to have all the morals due to religion. You proved yourself wrong, due to the sense that you stooped to the level of using disrespectful words "retard, whip your ass", etc against me. Is this what your religion teaches you?

If you look at my posts, I never never called anyone such a name, nor used any sort of vulgar language to bring my point across.

However, what else should I expect from a immoral theist anyway?

Your knowledge of Atheism is your very own proof of how much you know about Atheism, and perhaps even your own religion. I pity the other Muslim followers, to be defended by someone who knows nothing at all.

America being Atheist. I laugh each time I read such a phrase, since it's such an obvious contradiction. Like, the Sun is Dark.

Arai

99

arai,

 you called me a "moron" twice. The first time i asked  you politely not to use bad language and the second time...well i cant let people like you take advantage of my good nature. Is their  one rule for you and one rule for me?

i ask you again how many americans believe in god????? if america allows adultery , fornication then is it a theist country???..........its a shame for atheist religion to have you represent them.

100

Atheism is not a defined religion.

We don’t practice any rituals, do any prayers, nothing.

Atheism is fundamentally.

  1. No Such thing as God.
  2. Man is at Man’s Will
  3. No such thing as Supernatural Powers
  4. Everything can be and WILL be explained only by science.
  5. You only have ONE LIFE.

That’s it. I don’t need to do anything else, or believe anything else to be an atheist. This marks it all down.

It never says there that I should maim, kill people. That is always entirely upto the person to decide. People of all religions are involved in scandals, crimes, and murders. Why else would they need LAW in religious countries, if the reilgion itself would stop people from committing crime? Why does Saudi Arabia have Execution? They’re executing Muslims. I assume it’s because the Muslim guy did something wrong, and illegal. Where did the Q’uran come into play? How come he isn’t as perfect as the rest of the Q’uranic followers? Anyone, from any religion any faith is capable of being immoral. Simple as that.

Atheists are just as likely as doing something wrong as a Muslim. There’s no distinction whatsoever.

Muslim believes in that eventually God will punish you for what you did wrong. So, if you steal something, worth for example $500. You can get away with it, but you should rememebr God is not happy and you will get punished. (And we never know if that is true or not, we assume God exists therefore we’re in trouble.. But what if there isn’t a God? Then, what happens to the evil deed I committed and it goes unpunished?)

Atheist don’t believe God will punish you, but Atheist believes society will punish you. By for example, stealing. Scientifically will produce inflation, cause other economical systems that will cause even more of a drastic effect to you. If you steal from a store something worth $500, the store has to make up for the item stolen, therefore prices increase. So when next time you go to buy something legitamtely, you essentially SCREWED YOURSELF over by doing that, since now you have to pay ridiculously higher for the product, the seller still needs to make a profit, and you in teh long run lose out more than even the 500$ you stole.. You gained nothing, but you lost everything and more in the long run. Society has thus inadvertently punished you. But, if you get CAUGHT stealing. You would goto jail or whatever they do to thieves just like any other crime, but if you do get away. Society will find a way to punish you, like what I mentioned above.

Atheists also believe that, Man is at Man’s Will. We can’t totally live on our own, we are always dependant on another pe rson or society. Therefore, society collectively works together to obtain the objective goal. Atheists are more community/family type people, since God doesn’t come in the way of them, and people of different ethnic background or religious background can come together without being persecuted on what they believe.
Atheists really have the best sense of morals. We do good deeds for the sake of the good. Religious people do good deeds for the sake of FEAR, so if God didn’t care, they wouldn’t fear, and they would do whatever the heck tyhey want.

The best site for your apparent interest in Atheism is http://www.atheists.org, it provides many good articles, and references and what Atheism is reallly about.. And to answer any misconceptions you have.. Since you obviously have MANY.

Anyhow, I would like to finish off, by apologizing that I did stoop to your level, I did call you a moron I believe, or made direct insults to your opinons, such as idiotic, etc. I will apologize for that, since in this case I am clearly wrong and I will accept all fault for this. And thus, would conclude that I am sorry.

Arai