Are Sikhs Hindus in Disguise??

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Rani says sikhs are basically the same as hindus and after a little research I found this article on a Hindutva website

It was for the purpose of fighting this same creed (Islam) that the very concept of Sikhism was born. The sword of the Khalsa was formed to rid the world of the cancer of intolerance and oppression. A holy oath was taken to rid India of the oppressors, it was for this very reasons that the five symbols or Kakkars of Sikhi - Kesh, Kara, Kanga, Kirpan, Kacchera were created. Each one of these symbols represents an ideal of resistance against the Muslim conquerors and reinforces Hinduism as the source of Sikhism.

Kesh - the tradition of Kesh meaning the long hair which is not cut. The Sikh follows this tradition of Hindu warriors who vowed never to cut their hair until the Muslim aggressors were thrown out of India. Their hair is the symbol of the vow which is never forgotten. In Hinduism the cutting off of hair represents fruition of a duty or task. For the Sikhs this task is never finished as they are forever the protectors of the eternal Dharma of India, therefore the hair is never cut.

Kanga - the tradition of the Kanga meaning the wooden/ivory comb is the symbol of constancy and alertness, as it reminds the Sikh never to be complacent. It means that Sikhs must nurture and constantly nourish the fire of warrior spirit that burns within them, just as they must always keep their long hair combed in order for it to be clean and manageable.

Kara - the tradition of the Kara meaning the metal bracelet, symbolizes immovable determination. The courage and detachment of Banda Bahadur and millions of Sikh warriors was rekindled whenever they looked at their Karas and were reminded of the willpower and strength inherent in their tradition. The bracelet is also an indicator of the Hindu concept of Jiva and Atman, where the bracelet represents the material form of the Soul and the metal represents the commonality of the spiritual essence of all living beings, the Atman.

Kirpan - the tradition of Kirpan meaning the sword, symbolizes the defense of the oppressed. It is the representation of the fierce ideals of a Kshatriya race which has pledged its life to protecting Dharma and defending the land of its forefathers from foreign invaders who threaten its culture. It also reminds the Sikh warrior of the Hindu concept of the fleeting temporary nature of life, and focuses attention on the immortal glory of the Self or Brahman who lies beyond the fragile nature of this life.

Kachha - the tradition of Kachha meaning the short minimal clothing, symbolizes the highest Hindu concept of renunciation. The Sikh is a Kshatriya whose life is pledged to the fight against injustice, therefore renunciation is a key element as it makes the warrior detached from the material aspects of life and focuses his attention on to his Dharma or duty.
It is these symbols of their origins that make Sikhs the proudest, dignified patriots of India. It was the Sikh Gurus who preached the fact that Ram is everywhere, it was they who lovingly gave Ram the name “Wahe Guru”.

I think if this is true then the sikh religion is finished. No wonder the hindus call Sardars stupid. Creating a people with the sole purpose of fighting the battles for the hindus (brahmins) while they think up new Sardar jokes. Why did they feel the need to create a separate religion just to fight muslims? B/c they didn’t want to fight themselves? It’s not allowed in their own religion so they had to create a mutant form?

If Sikhs are hindus, why do they say sasrikal instead of namaste? It doesn’t make sense. I feel sorry for the sikhs. Looks like Shiv Sena is going to brainwash them into believeing sikh religion is a sham. Might as well go back to being hindus.

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As if creating bad-blood amongst muslims was not enough; now, you seek to create the same between hindus & sikhs.

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Dear Mr. Xtreme,
Nice "research" -- very informative. Although I don't know how authentic it is. Only a Sikh can verify this. Sikhism is a seperate religion and is NOT a part of Hinduism as far as my limited knowledge goes. But lots of Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs marry. I've got relatives who have married Sikhs (I'm a Maharashtrian Brahmin), so marrying Sikhs is not that much of a big deal even in orthodox Brahmins (as it would probably be in case of Muslims or Christians).
By the way, I don't understand your obsession with Brahmins with statements like "....fighting the battles for the hindus (brahmins) while they think up new Sardar jokes." Now I'll need to convince you that Hindu Brahmins are actually nice people !! :)

-- Your friendly neighborhood Hindu Brahmin

PS: BTW it's "Sat Sri Akal" not "sasrikal"
:)

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Mr Xtreme,

I never said that Sikhism and Hinduism are the similar or one religion Sikhs have their own distinct religious book Gurugranth sahib, but what I said is that they are both eastern religions (mystic religion, unlike Islam) and they are sons/daughters of the same soil.

It is true that there are lot more mixed families among Hindu and Sikhs than in any other religion. In punjab many Hindus pray in Sikh Gurudawaras and we call them Sahejdari Sikhs.

I will comment on your lengthy post some other time.

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Xtreme, very interesting "research' :)

oh that reminds me....when I want to know something about Islam next time I will visit Pat Buchanan's website:) Or is there any better Chrisitian web site you know of?

CM

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channmahi, if there is/was any connection between sardars and hindus and their religions.... then hindus will mention it too right and not just sardars. so why do u think xtreem should mention sikh literature only?

u know ppl usually think before talking and use their heads... whatever u use frankly stinks. u have no input on anything and just complain.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited January 30, 2000).]

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Extreme Hunduvata by Sikhs has been considered as their number one enemies as for as I have been hearing it for last 2 decades of my concious life. What I ridiculed was getting info on Sikhism from Hindu extremist sites of RSS,Shiv Sena etc.....Now my assumption is the original post was cut and pasted from one of these sites( I have not still read the post in complete). It may not be true.

As for as denying all connections between Sikhs and Hindus, I did not say that.
Fact#1 Majority of the Sikhs are converts from Hindus in the last 500 years.
Fact#2 Majority of the Muslims of Pakistan and India are converts from Hindus over the last 1200 years.

Now anyone who denies these two facts is living in a dreamworld.

Now as for as creation of Khalsa to fight the Muslims as said in the original post....thats where the real ideological difference is. Of course extremist Hindus are going to claim and propagate that misinformation, that the whole purpose of Khalsa was to fight against Muslims. it serves them 2 purposes. #1 serves as permanent enemity between sikhs and muslims which goes in their favour.

2 now they can claim that since they need no more Khalsa to defend Hindus, now that they have nukes. hence assimilating the whole of Sikhism into itself(as was done to Budhism) by declaring it as a sect of Hinduism.

As for the facts....after the creation of Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh, as many battles were fought in his life time against Hindu kings of the north mountaineer states as many against Mughal kings and nawabs. I have not read a Sikh scholar yet who have said that whole purpose of Khalsa was to fight against Muslims. There is none. Every Sikh, I have met in life believes that Khalsa was created to fight against tyranny and unjustice, done by the powerful be they of any race, religion or creed. It was only a co-incident that in the initial days of Khalsa that tyranny was being commited by Mughal kings who were Muslims.

Now I am not saying that I want to be friends with you by stating the obvious as above, to please you Mundeya. That is my understanding of the issue. Although I don't claim to know it all. I might be wrong here, as I have been found wrong on many other things, myself. I have lot of friends who are Muslims(and Hindus) and real good at it in my real life who are like my brothers for sometime. As for me being Khalsa...I am not even close to being a normal religious person, Although have many members and friends who are...and luckily they share my views on the subject.
Other than that, I have as much interest in defending the religion I was born in as much I have in criticizing the one you were born in. Meaning none.

and another historic fact....Sikhs in most of their existence have lived as minorities everywhere they lived untill the creation of present day state of Eastren Punjab,India in 1966 where they are majority first time in 500 years. It, in my view, have had tremendous impact on social skills of Sikhs. It has taught them to be tolerant of the people living next door. They mix up with people of different looks and faiths more easily than per say people who lived most of their lifes as super majority. They have married more frequently outside their faith than I know followers of any other faith. That is very natural.

CM

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CM

I don't claim to know that much about sikh religion so I was surprised by the statements made by Rani about the origin of sikh religion (she has since edited these out of her posts in the politics section in an attempt to cover her hindu identity). As she is supposedly a sikh it was interesting that her version was similar to the hindutva version of origin of sikh religion which i have heard many other hindutva people claim to be true. I did visit a sikh website and that was something different altogether. Apparently nomidol worship in sikh religion.

RANI,

Why have you edited out the part of your post where you described how the sikh religion was born from the "Kshatriya" race and was originated by the hindus by choice to fight muslims. Where do you get your facts from dear "sikh" lady?

Did you know that idol worship is also frowned upon by your Gurus? So why you felt it so necessary to defend shivalingum worship I don't know. Sikhs are not hindus Rani. If you didn't know it before I will tell you now to save you desperately deleting your hindu supremacist gaffes in future.

Jai Hind :)

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no one disputes the claims that muslims of india converted from hinduism and sikh and whatever religions there were?
infact that is true for iran, turkey, africa, and all the other muslim dominated countries.
regardless of muslim,sikh,hidu ancient history, sikhs lost a golden opportunity in 47 to get their own homeland. if only they had some brains. and all the sikhs i have met in my life agree to this fact.

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Mr Xtreme,

It is true that Sikhism was born to fight the tyranny and forceful conversions. I once posted how Sikh guru 'Guru Teg Bhadhur' was tortured and killed for his refusal to convert to Islam, as a result Sikhs became militant and got their current form (Khalsa) to fight injustice and conversion by sword.
Sikhism is a very inclusive religion it is Universal egalitarian and open to everybody.
Followers of any and every religion can come to our Gurudawara and pray or partake Langer. Sikhism believes all human beings regardless of their religion are created equal, good and bad is determined by Karma(deeds) not the religion you follow.
Sikhism also believes in taking up the sword to fight against tyranny and injustice. Most of converts in Sikhism come from Hindu back-ground. It is a eastern religion (mystic)with its base in India.
Key Teaching of Sikhism
1) There is one God
2) God can be reached by many paths
3) All human beings (rich or poor, men & women) are born equal
4) Do Good Deeds
5) Make your living in an honest way
6) Share with less fortunate
7) Their is God within all of us by knowing yourself and conquering your mind you can achieve God.
I am certainly not an authority on Sikhism, I am sure that there are many others who can add to what I have said. ChanMahi please feel free to add anything.

So long

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited January 31, 2000).]

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Islam preaches all the points you listed Rani. hinduism doesnt... i.e they dont beleive in one god... they beleive in caste system... and they definitely dont beleive in sharing with poor cos they are taught to be misers, backstabbers, crooks etc.

Now if what you have listed about sikhs is true then they are more closely related to Muslims than hindus! I think the hindus who did not want to convert to Islam for whatever reasons, formed this Khalsa and borrowed these qualities from Islam.

Preislam history of india shows clearly that there were no signs of humans being treated fairly, equally... so the less fortunate shoodar class converted to sikhism to take revenge from the upper brahman class. that also explains the hatred sikhs have for brahmans and not so much for the lower classes of india.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited January 31, 2000).]

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Preislam history of india shows clearly that there were no signs of humans being treated fairly, equally... so the less fortunate shoodar class converted to sikhism to take revenge from the upper brahman class. that also explains the hatred sikhs have for brahmans and not so much for the lower classes of india.<<

I think you should read Ancient Indian History of Murya period to get full picture of India and its culture.

All classes of Indians (Kshyatrays, Vaishas, Brahmins and Shudras) adpoted Sikhism (nobody was converted) Sikhism believes that God can be achieved though many paths therefore it does not believe in conversion. Master Tara Singh the Sikh leader was a Brahmin. Many Hindus (shajdari Sikhs) specially in Punjab pray in Sikh Gurudawaras.

Sikhism is an inclusionary religion. It doesn't teach hate towards anybody.

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Mundyaa...
".......they definitely dont beleive in sharing with poor cos they are taught to be misers, backstabbers, crooks etc."

That would be wrong. I don't think any religion in the world would "teach" these values let alone Hinduism.

"I think the hindus who did not want to convert to Islam for whatever reasons, formed this Khalsa and borrowed these qualities from Islam."

You "think"....so you're not sure ! Why make statements like these. There's no question of "borrowing" any qualities from any religion. It is the worlds newest religion and is unique from the others.

"Preislam history of india shows clearly that there were no signs of humans being treated fairly, equally"

So you're assuming that humans began to be treated equally after the Muslim invasions. I think you need a few history lessons.

"so the less fortunate shoodar class converted to sikhism to take revenge from the upper brahman class. that also explains the hatred sikhs have for brahmans and not so much for the lower classes of india. "

Wrong again.....where did you read that shudras converted to Sikhism ? As far as hatred for Brahmins is concerned, I've yet to meet a Sikh who has hatred for Brahmins or Hindus for that matter. Yes...they may have issues with the Indian government at Delhi, but I have not yet heard a Sikh leader speak ill of the Hindu community or ridicule Hindu beliefs.

You don't have to convert every discussion into a Hindu v/s Muslim fight. I think we can put forth our views without using derogatory terms against each others religion. Personally I don't find extremist (or is it Xtremist) views offensive. There's nothing wrong in being "Xtremely" proud of your culture/religion/beliefs/nation. But there's still no need to use derogatory words to put forward your point forcefully !!

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so like should I change the lyrics to that cartoon…

transformers..more than meets the eye
transformers..robots in disguise

to

sardar ji..more than meets the eye
sardar ji..hindu in disguise?

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/fraudia.gif

Ps: not meant to offend anyone..

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i should read... but origin of sardars isnt the brightest of topics for my mind. :)

but if u claim to have read it and know it then do share the knowledge.

Now HOW DID hindus convert to sikhism?
U must have started out with one hindu who must have felt the need to change things around him... then the question is
"DID any one or many sikhs go out to preach to the hindus? and why did they feel the need to preach if its such a laid back religion as u put it."

Secondly i doubt that any brahman came forward and said "o sardars, we are guilty of having shooders worship our lingam... now convert us so we can be sardars and beleive in equality for all". I just find that very hard to beleive and still think that majority of sardars must be shoodars.

thirdly, i beleive in history that makes sense. so produce something real not fairytales from ur mothers. thanks

bombay, we are talking about origin of sardars.. there was no govt at that time. if you are having a hard time catching up to the topic, heres a clue... read again. when u r done... read again... and keep repeating the above till u do.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited January 31, 2000).]

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Mundyaa, here's your statement...
"that also explains the hatred sikhs have for brahmans....."

You're talking in present tense here (have not had), so I thought you meant in the present context.

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We, the people on this board are very habitual of seeing things in black and white. Either something is good or bad. either someone is a freind or a foe. Either Islam is good or Evil. Either Sikhism is great or nothing. Thats not how the reality is usually.

Few point I would like to make here from my understanding of the issue.

Theoretically, Sikhism hardly have any converts. Followers yes. Either you follow Sikhism or not. There is no one time irreversible ceremony in Sikhism which turns someone into Sikh. Earlier followers of Sikhism are from all four casts of Hinduism. Guru Nanak, himself was born as Kashatriya(Khatri). Although some brahims might have turned towards Sikhism here and there, mostly it was Khatri and other lower classes who comprise most of Sikh community of today.

There is difference between preaching one's faith or letting people know about certain ideology and; pursueing aggressively for conversion of people. Sikhs have never done the later in their entire existence. thats why their numbers did not go up that much in last 500 years.

Even today, there is hardly anyone preaching outside the Sikh community. There has been only couple of people in USA who have specifically targeted preaching Westerners and have attracted followers in USA, Mexico and other parts of Americas. But those are exceptions.

       ""U must have started out with one hindu who must have felt the need to change things around him...""

Yes that is right. that was Baba Nanak, son of a Khatri Hindu of Rai Talwandi, now in Pakistan.

BombayDeMundeya; Actually there is certain amount of contempt in Sikh psyche against brahmins or brahminical class. That cann't be taken as outright hatred against them either. Contempt is...after all very mild form of hate:)

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ChannMahi..
"Actually there is certain amount of contempt in Sikh psyche against brahmins or brahminical class. That cann't be taken as outright hatred against them either."

Whew...glad to hear that...I wouldn't want to be hit by a Sikh :)

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Bombaykid,

Contempt for Brahmins not true many of my good friends are brahmins. Compempt if any is for the past brahmincal practices such as caste system, acting as keepers of knowledge and religion etc.

I disagree with Chanmahi that Sikhs come from only two classes, there are lots of Sikhs from third class (Vaishya, commerce) known as Auroras, Kushwant Singh and General Aurora are good examples.

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I hope you will find it useful to read the following article about Sikhism it will help you to understand the Sikh religion and reason it was founded.

The advent of Sikh religion represents a decisive development in the evolution of Indian religious consciousness. Guru Nanak, the founder of this religion and the chief exponent of the Bhakti movement in Punjab, appeared in the midst of several powerful religious currents related to the Bhakti cult.

While he was quite naturally, influenced by them and, in certain respects, his ideology has strong affinity with that of Nirguna Bhakti cult of medieval India, he made a number of departures and formulated a specific and well defined religious ethos that extended far beyond his own times into the future.

In fact, Guru Nanak’s genius lay in integrating the contemporary Bhakti-Sufi tradition of spiritual quest with the socio-political milieu in medieval India. He sought to build a new order on principles of justice and equality as alternative norms to caste or creed. While most of the other contemporaneous expressions of the medieval Bhakti movement in various parts of India were to be absorbed by the orthodox stream of Hinduism, it was only the Sikh movement of Guru Nanak that developed as an autonomous faith and which still retains a great deal of its original dynamism.
Guru Nanak’s social vision, like his metaphysical vision, was comprehensive in nature, taking within its range the totality of society. His verses bear eloquent testimony to his concern over social discrimination, miscarriage of justice, cowardice of people and many other evils of the contemporary society. By far, the most fundamental departure which Guru Nanak made from the established social order was rejection of caste. He was convinced that no spiritual and social progress could take place in a system of privileges which confirmed the monopoly of the higher castes and exploitation of the so-called lower castes.

There are numerous pronouncements by Guru Nanak, repudiating the ethical validity of caste, affirming the equality of human beings before God and projecting deeds rather than caste as the determining factor for one’s true status. Further, it is not the metaphysical utterances alone but the practical steps taken by Guru Nanak for the abolition of caste that helped to translate his message into a concrete reality. He provided a framework for a vigorous egalitarian society through the creation of institutions like Sangat and Langar which constitute the original nucleus of the Sikh Panth, and both of which have been operating in the panth ever since their inception.
Guru Nanak thus set up a social order in which low castes fraternised without discrimination with other members drawn from higher classes and he conceived the community of his followers as constituting a classless and casteless society.

Guru Nanak’s rejection of social differences was further complimented by his affirmation of equality for women, and his concept of an ideal society was free from taboos and prejudices born out of gender discrimination. In fact, Nanak stood out, in his own time, as a staunch advocate of women’s proper place in society and their equal status with men. Another important aspect, from the socio-economic point of view, was Guru Nanak’s precept of Kirat Karo, Wand Chhako, Nam Japo. It means (a) earning livelihood by honest labour, (b) sharing the fruits of labour with others; and (c) practising the discipline of Nam.
The first of the commandments forbids parasitism in any form since stress is laid on Kirat, i.e honest productive labour. In the second, emphasis is laid on sharing the fruits of labour while in the third part of the formula, contemplation of God’s name was prescribed both for spiritual upliftment and as a safeguard against lack of dharma during pursuit of economic power. Thus, over and above being a mystic, Guru Nanak was founder of a new social order. As a result of his teachings and the organisational steps initiated by him, a new brotherhood came into existence, which exhibited a progressive social outlook.

Significantly enough, Guru Nanak was equally vocal on the political ills of his time. He keenly observed the functioning of the governments and felt deeply concerned over the disabilities of people groaning under the heels of tyranny and injustice of both the rulers and invaders. Through his fearless denunciation of all forms of oppression and tyranny, he symbolised the right of man to freedom of expression. One of the most important acts of Guru Nanak in grooming the society lay in promoting the capacity to think freely, fearlessly, rationally and independently. Nanak also infused moral strength among people by upholding the divine law of justice and its ultimate victory in the form of retribution to unjust rulers.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited January 31, 2000).]