Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Just a little food for thought for all those who claim that there is no anti-Muslim discrimination in India…

Muslims and Dalits discriminated in corporate India

Posted October 27th, 2007 by kashif
By Kashif-ul-Huda, TwoCircles.net

For some time now and especially after publication of Sachar Committee Report Muslims put much emphasis on acquiring modern education. In rapidly globalized economy of India, education was promised to be the key to a brighter future for Muslim kids.

A recent study, however, finds that getting a call for interview can be reduced to as much as 33% for a candidate with Muslim names compared to an equivalent-qualified candidate with high caste Hindu name.

Study was lead by Chairperson of the University Grants Commission Prof. Sukhdeo Thorat and Paul Attewell of City University of New York. Beginning in October 2005 and lasting 66 weeks the study involved responding to job advertisements appearing in national and regional English newspapers with sets of resumes that were similar except for names. For each advertised position researchers sent applications with identical qualifications and experience that differed only in names. There was no explicit mention of caste or religion but names were easily identifiable as upper caste Hindu name, Dalit or Muslim names.

Only private companies were targeted and jobs that required little or no experience. In 66 weeks, researchers sent 4808 applications in response to 548 job advertisements. A call for interview or for a written test was considered a success for that application. Researchers were looking to see if chances of receiving an interview call are same for a high caste, a Dalit and a Muslim name.

Two statistical methods on the data resulted in a similar outcome.** One method suggested that odds for a Dalit name is 0.67 and for a Muslim name is 0.33 to receive an interview call as compared to an equally qualified applicant with a high caste Hindu name. **Another method gave the odds 0.68 and 0.35 for Dalits and Muslims, respectively. Both statistical models results are statistically significant which means that it is highly unlikely for this to happen by random chance.

The researchers concluded that “[h]aving a high-caste name considerably improves a job applicant’s chances of a positive outcome” adding that “on average, college-educated lower-caste and Muslim job applicants fare less well than equivalently- qualified applicants with high caste names, when applying by mail for employment with the modern private-enterprise sector.”

This is not surprising; Sachar Committee also found that private sectors had a dismal representation of Muslims. Sachar Committee recommended sensitizing private sector about diversity in their work force and suggested boosting Muslims recruitment through positive discrimination and affirmative action. Sachar Committee Report proposed the idea of an incentive based ‘diversity index.’
Sachar Committee Report also noted that “our data shows when Muslims appear for the prescribed tests and interviews their success rate is appreciable. This applies both to the public and private sector jobs.” But the present study suggests that any Muslim has about one third of a chance for landing that test or interview compared to a high caste Hindu.

**Thorat and Attewell in their research article published in October 13th, 2007 issue of Economic and Political Weekly write that despite legal safeguards when a social group remains backward then it is blamed on group’s low level of education. **These two who have been studying discrimination in United States and India states that discrimination is not acknowledged in a modern capitalist economy.

This study conclusively proves that there is discrimination in corporate India against Dalits and Muslims, with Muslims suffering the most.

“These were all highly-educated and appropriately qualified applicants attempting to enter the modern private sector, yet even in this sector, caste and religion proved influential in determining ones job chances,” researchers commented.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

And about housing discrimination…

                 **RELIGION KEY TO ENTRY INTO UPSCALE GHETTOS **                 

What’s common to these celebs?
Name, fame, and a common religious identity that is now coming in the way of their buying a dream house in posh suburbs

Kunal M Shah and Yogesh Sadhwani

Just being rich and famous, it seems, is no longer enough in Mumbai. You have to have the right religion too.

Several Bollywood actors, including a yesteryear seductress and a reigning male sex symbol, are struggling to buy property in Mumbai because they are Muslims, their star status and hefty budgets notwithstanding.

Emraan Hashmi, with the hits and kisses to his credit, has had no luck buying a house. The actor is looking for an apartment in Bandra. “Life and dignity is a fundamental right enshrined in the Constitution of India. When I am denied the right to pick a place of my choice because of my religion, it violates the secular sprit of the country. It’s outrageous! If this is happening to me then I shudder to think what would be happening to people from my community who don’t have name and fame,” he questions.

Sophiya Chaudhary, better known as MTV’s VJ Sophie, has also been looking to buy a house for close to two years now. Everything goes well, she told Mumbai Mirror, till the time she reveals her religion to the developer. Since Chaudhary is not a last name generally associated with the Muslim community, developers treat her like the star that she is and are willing to go to any length to give her a good deal. But everything goes cold the moment she mentions her Muslim lineage.

Sophie said that on more than one occasion the deal was almost done, the final price had been worked out and the token money paid. "It all came unstuck the moment my agent mentioned my religion," she added. She and her mother have been turned down by developers in Santacruz, Juhu, Bandra and Khar.

Big stars being denied flats in fancy areas is a recent development, says Sandeep Sadh, CEO, Mumbai Property Exchange, a real estate consulting firm. While it was a norm earlier in lower middle class localities, the bias against Muslims is becoming common in more affluent areas too, he confirms the increasing ghettoisation in Mumbai. “In such cases, of course, our job becomes ten times more difficult,” he adds.

"I had almost finalised a house off Perry Road in Bandra but the deal was called off at the last minute. When I asked the seller the reason, I was told that they would not sell the house to a member of a minority community," says Arbaaz Ali, son of veteran actor Ajit after hunting for a house for over a year without success. Ali, who has starred in films like Taj Mahal, Mrityudatta and Kal, says he has now dropped the idea of selling his old house and abandoned the dream of a new one.

Echoing his sentiment Sophiya’s mother Jasmin says: “Denying us a house just because we are Muslims is like slapping us. We were so disheartened by our experience that we dropped the idea of buying a house. But even renting a house proved to be tough.” Though, Sophiya adds, “some of these people would visit us once before denying us a house. We have a temple and Buddha statue in our house.”

Zeenat Aman, the 70s seductress, till recently had spent three years looking for a house before settling for her present apartment in Juhu. "Some of the developers refused to even meet us. One of them went to the extent of saying we were out of minds to hope he would sell us a house," says the actress’s long-standing friend Zaheer Khan. He added that while some developers politely refused, others quoted obscene prices to discourage them. “But the message was the same – we do not sell to Muslims,” he said.

Emraan Hashmi’s uncle and film maker, Mahesh Bhatt, quoted instances where two of his Muslim friends – a banker from Ahmedabad and an action director – were prevented from buying houses in certain areas of the city. “Both are having a tough time buying houses in the city. **In fact, my action director was denied entry in a building by the society’s manager as his wife was in a burkha. *He was told that he shouldn’t waste his time looking for a house in the area as he would never get one,”***said Bhatt.

Developers in the western suburbs confirmed the trend but refused to go on record. “There is not much we can do. If we sell a house to a member of a minority community, other buyers may have a problem. We are here to do business,” said a developer who has large projects across Bandra, Andheri and Kandivli.
http://www.mumbaipropertyexchange.com/newsdetail.asp?news=251

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Brother *Das Reich *– I think that’s just the half of the equation –with ayatollah Khomeini’s revolution in Iran the Pakistani Shias were embolden and if I remember correctly did become quite assertive.

But then Pakistanis time and again have proved themselves as (good) proxy fighters for other people’s wars – present problems reflect this too.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Well I can accuse you, because you didnt come up with any numbers to prove otherwise. Ur comments on ram sethu is below belt. It has nothing to do with the discussion that we are having here.

Do u know why quota system was implemented? It was because thousands of years of mistreatment that low caste hindus were subjected to by the upper class hindus. When was muslims subjected to such discrimination. On the contrary they were ruling major part of the country for 400 years. Genious u r!

Really then why does the second and third generation pakistanies doing the same. Besides if I take ur argument then I could use it in favour of people in India as well. Its not a hidden fact that more wealthy Indians migrated to pakistan in partition leaving the poor behind.

Its not just one token minister. They have usually have 4. They usually have 16-20 MLAs when Congress with IUML comes to power in Kerala. But what matters is consistancy. They invariably win and they invariably become ministers. And educational portfolio is theres for the taking. What did they do with it is the question. If you know a bit of kerala u would know what I am talking about.
We didnt say that muslims are well off in India. But atleast there is oppertunity for them to live their life they want. U bring up few examples of places where discrimination exist as a result general enemity between hindus and muslims, and paint that as a true representation of whole of India is very childish.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

if u r refering to the zakat issue then yes i agree that was regretable indeed
actually we needed a mutahida majlis-e-amal like party in those days when zia ul haq was in power that would have promoted sectarian unity
kind of like what was Jamat was .....unfortunately to assesrt their "uniqueness" shias have gotten into more trouble than thay would have liked
but formation of SSP was a very counterproductive move on part of the intelligence services

ur second comment ...lol.....pakistanis have always been a nation of mercenaries

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

You accused Muslims of being too focused on religious learning, and not scientific enough, despite the fact that only 4% are being educated in madrasas according to your own government's studies.

I was simply pointing out what the level of scientific discourse is in India. It's completely relevant...if you're going to accuse Muslims in general of being backwards people, you should be reminded of the state of your nation as a whole.

Because, as anyone of a number of social studies will show, the children of poor people are less likely to succeed in school than their wealthier counterparts. They cant afford to go to good schools, they often have to drop out of school early and start working to help support their families, they tend to live in more crime ridden areas, etc.

The migrants that you speak of account for less than 10% of Pakistan's population. In case you weren't aware, the land that makes up Pakistan was not uninhabited prior to Partition...there were indigenous people there, many of whom happened to be poor.

In any case, why are you focusing on the UK? Why not talk about the US, where on average, Pakistanis are better educated and have higher incomes than average? Or would that just defeat your argument that all us Muslims are inherently lazy and stupid?

Please respond to the study on employment that I posted above.

This is so nonsensical it isnt even funny. Its no more ridiculous than if I were to claim that Hindus and Sikhs are better off in Pakistan than in India.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

The answer for "are shias safer in India than in Pakistan" cannot be in ternms of which country treats muslims better.

Ideally it would be in terms of comparing number of shias killed and maimed.. I have feeling it is not even a fair fight - Pakistan wins this one I think..

Just plain mad jihadi and religioso nuts with explosive sermons, explosive belts and a dark version of immorality as spirit

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I disagree...its not as though they distinguish between Shias and Sunnis when they're discriminating against Muslims in India on a daily basis. During the riots, the mobs don't check and see who is Shia and who is Sunni...as far as they are concerned, a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim.

And like I said before, I've personally seen Indian police attacking Muharram processions in Srinagar...beating the azadars with lathis and firing tear gas into the crowds.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

i never heard it in Hyderabad, only lucknow has that problem not even delhi

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

And what do you find unscientific about this? Are you disputing that the bridge exists or that it is a natural formation or that it was built by Sri Rama's Vanara Sena? If you tell us what you find unscientific I can provide some clarification.

Muslims go around the kaaba in Mecca don't they? Is that a very scientific and rational behavior according to you? Faith is faith, belief is belief.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

You have completely missed TA's point. The question in the thread is "are Shias safer in India or in Pakistan".

The total number of attacks on Shia's in Pakistan far outnumbers attack on totality of Muslims in India and Shia's being a subset of Muslims, we can safely conclude that India is safer.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I hope you are not taking this sort of statements seriously yourself. First of, there is no such thing as scientific discourse.

If you want to understand the level scientific research, development, education and innovation then it is easy come across data for that. Just look at the number of research institutions, laboratories, colleges that have mushroomed. Look at how many international companies have opened R&D centers, labs in India. You an take up pretty much ANY branch of science.

I am noticing that in more and more of your posts you are making statements against India with no understanding or attempt to understand facts. That kind of attitude is called hatred and not good for you.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

[quote=“janab-e-ali, post:23, topic:178256”]

And again, if a handful of backwards Muslim groups are lumped together with all the low caste Hindus, its all to easy to just pick Hindu students and claim that you’re still filling the ‘quota.’ Which is why, despite the 50% reservations that you speak of, according to the Indian government’s own studies, Muslims are still miserably represented in all the major institutes of higher learning in India. Or do you just believe that’s because Muslims as a group are just that lazy and stupid???[/q]

Doesn’t that tell you right there what the problem is? It is not just muslims but a lot of Hindus are backward in their status too and so included in the SC/ST/BC/OBC categories for reservations and preferential quota. Now you have yourself proven in this your own statement that muslims are NOT discriminated!

Or do you want even more special treatment where India should completely ignore the poor amongst its majority and focus all resources on muslims just because of their religion? It seems that you do and that tells me you are the one that thinks muslims are less capable and need all the reservations to survive?

I don’t know why they were rejected. Because I know numerous buildings where muslims and others live in different apartments and socialize. I am also surprised that such ‘upscale’ muslims do not know of the court system to go and complain when they are so rejected.

Just go to Malabar Hill or Colaba and see how many hundreds of ‘upscale’ muslims buy and sell apartments everyday. May be there is something about muslim actors - who knows! The point is if 99% of Muslims have no difficulty buying property and 1% does, a reasonable person should look for other issues rather than screaming religious discrimination.

Your posts right in thread bear out who is B*tching and itching and moaning! :rotfl:Just look at the thread title and see if any of your posts address the comparison between the two countries? Instead all your posts here are complaints about your imagined discrimination!

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Janab-e-ali,

Can you also explain why chose to suppress this part of the article in your own reference above:

http://www.mumbaipropertyexchange.com/newsdetail.asp?news=251

**WHAT THE LAW SAYS

**• A person cannot be denied the right to buy property on the basis of his religion

• An SC judgment in Zoroastrian Co-op Society vs District Registrar of Co-op Societies allowed the Zoroastrian Society to restrict its membership to the community. The court, however, said that each state would have to amend it’s housing laws accordingly. The Maharashtra government has not made the amendments.

• The SC also said that only community or religion-based housing societies registered as such have the right to restrict membership to that people of that religion or community

**WHAT COPS SAY
**
We have not received any such complaints so far. But if we do receive a complaint, we will study the legal provisions and act accordingly. After all, it is [housing] the fundamental right of every citizen provided by the Constitution of India

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Forget Shias.... talk about muslims... Jsut coz Hindus Exceed in popluation gives em the right to fall down babri Masjid ?

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

What do you expect if Hindu rights, in spite of being majority, are continually trampled? All these centuries Hindus did not object to the masjid being in temple land ... but when pandering became at the cost of Hindus it gets to a point where violence erupts and they attacked the masjid!

Nobody has a right to destroy places of worship of any religion. You cannot however undo the fact that the masjid was built where there is a temple, causing severe resentment. There are literally hundreds of Hindu temples that were detroyed.

Now, how do you expect Hindus feel if on top of such destruction in the past, their current life is also sought to trampled upon by more and more pandering?

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

so i guess it gives sunnis the right to bomb the al-askariyah shrine in iraq because sunnis exceed shias in samarra?

stupid logic.

and back on topic, as a shia i prefer to live in india over pakistan, since its much safer there.

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

^Then leave this board. Its a Pakisani site!

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

since where does it state in the rules that i must be pakistani to post on this?

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Technically the site is registered to Solotech, Houston. But seriously, from Hazara's answer doesn't it seem India is safer?